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Yet another depression thread
k-maps
I wish I could find the Karnaugh map for love.2^<3Registered User regular
I wish I could find the Karnaugh map for love.2^<3Registered User regular
There have been a lot of depression threads lately and I've been lurking trying to internalize the wisdom imparted in them, yet somehow I'm still at a loss when dealing with my own depression. I'm having slight difficulty articulating(English also not my native language) my problems so please bear with me if I'm unable to encapsulate them in one post.
During my brief lifetime(18), I have dealt with and resolved a fair share of problems including: suicide of a loved one, having the "wrong" sexual orientation(tantamount to social suicide in some circles), complete alienation from my surroundings and a non-physically abusive relationship with my father. While all these things are difficult I can somehow manage to summon the mental strength to make them feel surmountable. But there is one problem I can't seem to overcome no matter how much exercise, therapy, healthy lifestyle habits and SSRIs I throw at it. Being keen on biology I recently discovered something about my medical past that sheds new light on many issues I might have. I don't want to delve into specifics but this information revealed that something may have happened to me that could have negatively affected some of my mental faculties. I am sorry for being vague but it is an inherently vague/controversial topic so I purposely want to keep it abstract lest we digress off-topic. For some reason I can't shake the feeling off me that I will never live a successful fulfilling life because of this new piece of information. I've been dealing with these thoughts for over 3 years and it has caused to have severe bouts of depression(loss of interest in life, suicidal ideation etc.) To strengthen why I might feel this way, I have always felt something was a bit off with me. My life is checkered with events where I come tantalizingly close to some goal and then flake for some reason. This medical tidbit fits elegantly with theories I have for why my life is this way. My therapist has told me that this is a strawman for other problems I might have, but it just seems so real and palpable to me that it makes everyone who tries to refute it just seems stupid or ignorant. To put things into perspective, I am an A-student in a moderately respectable uni, while I have no friends where I live, I have plenty of friends back home who I adore and who reciprocate my feelings for them and have some productive extracurricular endeavors which I casually pursue. But no matter how much I succeed in my life, in retrospect it just all seems like a sham. I get into my head this ethereal alternate universe of "what if" this hadn't happened to me and it just sucks all the joy of whatever I do. Admittedly, I am the kind of person who always finds something to wax tragic about. But something about this seems so convincing that I can't laugh it off as being another scapegoat for my shortcomings. As a result, I harbor a very fatalistic view of the world which greatly diminishes my expectation of my self thereby diminishing the quality of my life. Has anyone else dealt with an obsession with a "what if?" scenario? Does this fit the bill for some other mental illnesses.
Thanks for trying to make sense of this post, I will try to follow it up with a more coherent explanation.
During my brief lifetime(18), I have dealt with and resolved a fair share of problems including: suicide of a loved one, having the "wrong" sexual orientation(tantamount to social suicide in some circles), complete alienation from my surroundings and a non-physically abusive relationship with my father. While all these things are difficult I can somehow manage to summon the mental strength to make them feel surmountable. But there is one problem I can't seem to overcome no matter how much exercise, therapy, healthy lifestyle habits and SSRIs I throw at it. Being keen on biology I recently discovered something about my medical past that sheds new light on many issues I might have. I don't want to delve into specifics but this information revealed that something may have happened to me that could have negatively affected some of my mental faculties. I am sorry for being vague but it is an inherently vague/controversial topic so I purposely want to keep it abstract lest we digress off-topic. For some reason I can't shake the feeling off me that I will never live a successful fulfilling life because of this new piece of information. I've been dealing with these thoughts for over 3 years and it has caused to have severe bouts of depression(loss of interest in life, suicidal ideation etc.) To strengthen why I might feel this way, I have always felt something was a bit off with me. My life is checkered with events where I come tantalizingly close to some goal and then flake for some reason. This medical tidbit fits elegantly with theories I have for why my life is this way. My therapist has told me that this is a strawman for other problems I might have, but it just seems so real and palpable to me that it makes everyone who tries to refute it just seems stupid or ignorant. To put things into perspective, I am an A-student in a moderately respectable uni, while I have no friends where I live, I have plenty of friends back home who I adore and who reciprocate my feelings for them and have some productive extracurricular endeavors which I casually pursue. But no matter how much I succeed in my life, in retrospect it just all seems like a sham. I get into my head this ethereal alternate universe of "what if" this hadn't happened to me and it just sucks all the joy of whatever I do. Admittedly, I am the kind of person who always finds something to wax tragic about. But something about this seems so convincing that I can't laugh it off as being another scapegoat for my shortcomings. As a result, I harbor a very fatalistic view of the world which greatly diminishes my expectation of my self thereby diminishing the quality of my life. Has anyone else dealt with an obsession with a "what if?" scenario? Does this fit the bill for some other mental illnesses.
Thanks for trying to make sense of this post, I will try to follow it up with a more coherent explanation.
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There are events that effect your life that you have no control over. You need to accept your current situation, see the positives in your current situation, and move forward with your life.
It doesn't really matter if it is "what if my mom hadn't done drugs while I was a fetus inside her" or "what if I hadn't done drugs" or "what if I hadn't broken up with my girlfriend"...what if you had been hit by a bus and lost both your legs?
Yeah, your life may not have been the best, and some people have it better then you, others have it worse. The funny thing is, people who have it better aren't as much happier then the people who have it worse then you do as you'd think. It is all how you deal with it in your head.
As for a personal anecdote, I have dealt with depression for most of my life. Growing up my childhood was pretty good overall, but my parents were negligent. My mom was severely depressed and emotionally unstable (most definitely suffering from a mood disorder she never had treated). I inherited this from her.
For a long time I felt incredibly ashamed that I couldn't fix my mood and the negative behaviors associated with it. Recently I was diagnosed as having Bipolar II. I have been obsessing over whether there is something organic or if all my problems can be blamed on behaviors learned from my mother. What if I had a different mom? What if she got help earlier in her life? What if my dad never went bankrupt?
Will I have to take meds for the rest of my life?
At the end of the day these questions are scapegoats. My mother is who she is, raised me the way she did and nothing is ever going to change that. My brain chemistry may or may not be based on genetic makeup that I have no control, either way I have the symptoms and behaviors that categorize me as having a mood disorder.
Even that is meaningless.
The real question is what the hell am I going to do about it?
If a doctor or therapist tells you that yes you have a medical condition that is effecting your mood, that won't really change anything. It's not a free pass.
Granted it is worth looking into as it may change your treatment plans, but being able to explain why you feel a certain way doesn't make you stop feeling that way.
Pretty much everyone everywhere can point to some event in their life that they wish had gone differently. You know what, it didn't. It really sucks that it didn't, but at some point you have to accept yourself for who you are.
I am going to disagree with this right here. I was an honors student, on the dean's list in college, etc., but proceeded to shoplift, cut myself, and ultimately create a plan to kill myself.
The point you are making is absolutely right though.
k-maps, you obviously have the intelligence, the knowledge, and resources to do something about this. The power is in your hands and all that inspirational stuff.
Seriously, therapy, exercise, and a healthy lifestyle are good for absolutely everyone, and the fact that you can maintain these as well as have relationships speaks volumes to your capabilities as well as the level of control you really do have.
Vytrox - don't you ever get angry at your parents because of those things?(I'm not saying you should) If so how do you deal with the anger?
Being older now I am more able to see my mother as a human and empathize with her situation. Especially so since most of my problems very clearly mirror hers (hers were a lot worse quite frankly, but there are plenty of parallels).
There are times when I do judge her harshly for situations were I would act in much the same way, out of some kind of self loathing.
There is nothing wrong with having some pragmatism when taking stock of your life, recognizing your failings, and parts of your life that you would like to be different. The point of this is so that you can do something about it. Hopelessness is basically the root of all depression. Having been there I know how annoying it is for people to try to talk you out of it.
Just as you have pragmatism about your failings you must apply that same lens to your resources. While you may doubt your intelligence your instructors do not. Talk your way out of it all you want, but at the end of the day it is a recorded fact.
Your social life sucks, believe me I know what this is like. The positive side is you are still in college, surrounded by people. Join clubs, talk in class, and go to the GLBT center. Seriously. While they will not have the same story as you pretty much everyone there will be able to relate to much of the social difficulties that you are facing. Plus they can probably help you find some dates (when you're ready for that).
That is a big part of it too. Set reasonable goals. I often have fallen into the black and white thinking the grandiose plans that never seem to come together so I give up completely. This is definitely a place where your peers and your therapist will help. Unlike movies you can't show up from summer break with a badass leather coat and a pair of sunglasses and expect everyone to love you. It takes time.
On the medical front, your vagueness certainly intrigues me, but it is a legitamte thing to talk about with your doctor. It is only one route, and most likely wont actually change the things you have to do to reach your goals. SSRI's don't work for me, they make me hypomaniac. The stuff I'm on now seems to work (lamictal - mood stabilizer/antidepressant).
This is getting long and I think I am rambling, but one of the best pieces of advice I received from my therapists was compassion. While most people probably have not had as tough a time as you, everyone is insecure. It's not about being funny, or good looking or whatever, having relationships is about connecting with people and accepting them for who they are. Most importantly you have to extend this compassion to yourself.
You are who you are. It doesn't really matter why you are that way, you simply are. You don't have to be this way forever, you can and will change. In the meantime give yourself a break.
I really like this post :^:
I'm really struggling to get to this point. I think I definitely reached the point where I see my parents as human but that just makes me feel like they should be more accountable for their actions.
The problem is when I follow that pragmatic thinking to the end, I reach fatalistic conclusions about myself. So it's sort of like when a new scientific theory becomes accepted it's going to remain valid until someone finds a better explanation to account for the phenomena in question, the way I see my life is going to remain the same unless it's replaced by a more persuasive framework. So far I haven't been able to find it. Also, I never made the success in academia = intelligence equation but I guess it depends.
Not that I'm trying to knock all of your suggestions, but I've tried joining the ACM club in my school and I just can't seem to master social situations that are not 1-on-1. Also I'm afraid that the gay/lesbian stereotypes perpetrated by the media are so effective that they managed to permeate even to the people they are stereotyping. This is obviously not true in all cases but my experience in GLBT center and such facilitated this point.
If you want I can PM you(I really don't want the thread to be about this).
In the second half of the post you express goals I really strive for, yet somehow, the obsessive perfectionist side of my psyche always wins out. Maybe as you say I should set smaller attainable goals so I don't get frustrated when my grandiose plans don't go anywhere.
You've written off the people at your GBLT center as "stereotypical." So what if they are stereotypical? It doesn't make them bad people if they like to wear flannel and listen to the Indigo Girls, or if they're a little "swishy" and like to go dance at the clubs. It sounds like you're being judgmental as a way to excuse yourself from having to deal with social situations. (This is, by the way, probably why you keep self-sabotaging: it's to keep from having to actually deal with the end result of your actions.) Go join the ACM club and go hang out at the GBLT center; if you're awkward, who cares? People are awkward sometimes. The more you're around groups, the easier a time you'll have in dealing with them.
You say you want your parents to be accountable for their actions. How, exactly, do you want them to be accountable? They can't change what they did. Do you just want them to apologize and feel bad? Would that do anything for you, or would it just give you another thing to obsess about? Whatever this vague thing is that they did to you, let it go. Forgive them. Every second you obsess over the past is a second you could be using to improve your future.
This is a whole new can of worms that might be more suitable for D&D. But as someone who has to fend off a lot of homophobia himself I find people who behave exactly like what society is trying to pigeonhole me into detrimental to the cause. Due to bad education and friends I had a very difficult time understanding during my adolescence that being gay doesn't entail certain traits such as those portrayed in the media. This causes anyone who possesses said traits to really rub me the wrong way. To disambiguate my stance this specifically pertains to homosexuals being portrayed as feminine(Nothing to do with transsexuals) and preoccupied with superficial things or having special talents in fashion. I hate this entire culture of people being able to tell if someone is gay just by observing the way he behaves or 'gaydar' or whatever you want to call it. I even had friends who went to SF and tell they're surprised by how 'not many people are gay there' as if they could tell. I also hate uniting under something that doesn't define you as a person. It's the same reason I wouldn't go to a gathering of people of the same ethnicity. I guess you do have a point though that I need to be a more tolerant person in general.
This is a fundamental moral issue, if a child were abused or neglected? Shouldn't the parent be held accountable? Is there nothing to be said for justice?
There's a big difference between acknowledging that not all homosexuals act "effeminate" and discriminating against "effeminate" men because they don't fit the role society demands of men. By judging them on whether or not they fit a masculine gender role, you're being bigoted.
Besides, it's not like liking fashion or enjoying clubbing makes someone less worthwhile to have as a friend. I hope you wouldn't judge the women in your life if they liked those things, so why judge the men?
Besides, you're not uniting under something that doesn't define you as a person, you're talking to people who probably have some shared experiences. You wouldn't refuse to go to a gaming club because "videogames don't define me as a person," so why not go to a club devoted to talking about GBLT issues?
I ask again: how do you want them to be held accountable? Would punishing them really help you?
Look, I know you're angry at them, and you may have a good reason to be. However, there's no point to holding onto this anger: they can't take back what they did no matter how sorry they are or how angry you are. Your parents are human beings. They made a mistake and you might be suffering because of it, but there's no justice in the world that can change the past.
Short answer: I'm dumb and come from a backwards place.
Long-ish answer: I let you into my unfiltered irrational mind...I personally don't have problems with people who behave this way...It just feels to me like people tend to clump me together with them...It's like some ignorant people from where I'm from might think that all black people are like Mr.T or something equally idiotic..I guess the better thing to do is just ignore what people think...but it's hard after years of trying to undo the damage of the stereotype...I can't explain why I think my love for videogames defines me as a person more than my sexual orientation...maybe because it's something I chose?
I don't know how to relinquish my anger towards them. Suggestions?
I keep having to split up your posts.
Anyway, the kind of people who are going to lump you together with them are going to do so whether or not you hang out with them, because that kind of people is homophobic and bigoted, and sexist to boot. The sooner you get over worrying about what they might think, the better.
As for undoing the damage, perhaps you should try to get to know some of these "stereotypical" people on more than a superficial level? Liking fashion or being a little flamboyant are only a few qualities: that same flamboyant person might also love Zelda, or write really good poetry, or volunteer with the elderly, or homebrew beer. I think that, once you get to know people, you'll see them more as "That awesome guy with the delicious IPA" and less as "That flamboyant queer who makes me look bad."
This would be an excellent question to ask your therapist. However, in the meantime, trying interrupting your anger by saying something out loud whenever you have angry thoughts. "What happened to me was bad, but I'm going to choose to make my life better now," you get the idea. Then, take a deep, slow breath, and after that, do something to distract yourself: play a game, read a book, get some exercise, talk to a friend. If the angry thoughts keep coming up, say your new mantra again and keep distracting yourself. Obsessive thoughts can be broken like any other habit; sometimes it's harder, but be persistent.
a) people there do have a shared experience with you. No it does not define you as a person, but I can guarantee you that other gay men and women have very similar concerns about how they are portrayed in the media, general acceptance from society, etc. Everyone has a coming out story. There is no hetero equivalent of this, therefore it seems reasonable to seek out people with similar experiences and interests to talk to.
b) At some point I imagine you want to have romantic relationships (I am not sure if you feel ready for that yet, but again, life goals). The numbers are against you for finding another gay man in the library, or class, or wherever, and in some cases if you misjudge someone's sexuality it could be downright dangerous for you.
This is more or less the same for everyone (not the dangerous part). I want to date women. Therefore I need to go to places that increase my chances of finding women who also want to date me (similar age, interests, etc.). The numbers are slightly more in my favor than for you, so you may have to take a different tactic then me.
I don't really care if you go to this center or not, the purpose is just to point out the resources that you do have available. Having been out of college for a few years, I now realize how many opportunities I really had. You are in a place with a ton of people your same age, and lots of ways to engage with them. Maybe you would feel more comfortable joining a political group, taking an art class, foreign language groups. I believe you said english is not your first language. Join the "insert language here" club, tutor people in it.
Interact with people.
This is not always easy, I know this, I lived this. For me I went to the Student Counseling Center, started therapy with one of the best therapists ever and ended up in group therapy. Group was an awesome experience. I did have people to talk to besides my therapist. They were messed up too, because pretty much everyone has problems. This is not to minimize your feelings and your experience, but reach outside yourself and you will come to find that we all have a burden to carry. You are not alone.
As far as your parents. It's alright to be angry. That is part of getting over it. As trowzilla mentioned though what would they have to do to make things right with you? If you are really honest with yourself, you will come to the conclusion that while they should acknowledge what they have done, and make some kind of emotional restitution, they can never undo what happened.
Also they may never apologize. My mother has said some really horrible shit to me, and while I am not angry with her, and our relationship is a lot better, it still hurts my feelings that she has never apologized. There are two sides to this 1. I have never really told her how I feel, and it's not really fair for me to assume she knows this 2. She most likely feels guilty and doesn't want to face things.
I know this is getting long, but I want to speak to the compassion piece once more. The doc that put me on the mood meds said something that really struck me. "Exercise will always be a major priority in your life." Think how simple that statement is. Exercise should be a priority in everyone's life. However this has a different meaning for me; it is an acknowledgment that the difficulties I face are different than for others. I am different from other people. And that's alright. The fact that I have to take medication, eat right, exercise, not just to improve my quality of life, but to actually prevent me from falling into a depression that could ultimately end with me hurting myself again, or possibly even killing myself, fucking sucks. I mean it really really fucking sucks.
The thing is though, I can do these things. Even if I slip up, and have some bad days, I have a place to start to build myself up again. I have control.
For me at least, the biggest change in my attitude and my thinking was accepting myself for who I am. There are tons of things I want to change, things I wish could have been different, but the guilt and shame that goes along with being hyper critical of myself will not help me. It will only send me down a spiral that I do not want to travel down again. When I make mistakes, fall off the wagon so to speak, I can accept that, but first I have to posses the compassion to accept myself.
vytrox - I guess I have troubles interacting with people on a more basic level than you think. I am extremely self-deprecating as it is hard to hate a self-immolated effigy, and I think that turns people off. Also, whenever I do get the chance to talk to somebody I use the opportunity to unload all this shit I've gone through and who would have thunk it, people don't like that either. I will try to be more compassionate though, and more aggressive in resisting depression.
Ultimately, what's going to help you most is a pragmatic approach. Yes, life's not fair. You didn't get dealt an equal hand; nobody does. Angsting about the unfairness of it all is about the most unhelpful thing you can do.
Regarding bigoted and sexist people, there are basically two types: the unintentionally ignorant, who you can usually talk to and who will start to be less bigoted; and the (for lack of a better word) evil assholes, who enjoy hating people and looking down on them because it gives them power and/or a sick thrill. Once you sort out which of your family and friends are the first type and which are the second, you can decide whether to talk to them or just write them out of your life. Nobody needs evil assholes around, even if you do share genetic material with them.
It worked for me, it will work for you. The whole point is to go unload all this shit on a group of people who are willing to listen. The other side of this is you have to listen to all their shit as well. Over time you will learn social skills just by being there, and if you really want to get the most out of it you will tell them that is exactly why you are there.
This also goes back to attainable goals. Think about how people actually start relationships. I used to hate small talk, I thought it was trite and pointless. The thing is though, strangers don't want to talk about your problems or get in a heated argument. Talking about the weather or whatever is a safe place to start. To see if you have similar interests and want to invest further.
Having no one to talk to makes you bottle it up so to speak and let loose on whoever you can find. Instead if you have multiple people you can share small pieces with over time it will make it a lot easier on them, and on you.
For example, day 1 in class talk to someone about something totally meaningless and safe. Make a joke, or say how you are looking forward to econ 101. Or the best skill ever is ask them a question and then shut up, smile and nod.
day 2 you can talk to them more about the class, the teacher is nuts, that test was hard whatever.
Then maybe you can say "do you wanna study together".
Take small steps, time goes by much quicker than you think. I don't mean for this example to be patronizing. You need goals, even giant goals, but to achieve them you need to see how they connect to where you are now. The example above is basically taken direct from my life. I took a class and remember thinking "I have to introduce myself to one person today". Now the goal was to make more friends, but for that one day, the pressure was much less, because the goal was much more attainable. In fact even if the person was a complete asshole, I still completed the daily goal. The only way I could fail was by not doing anything.
Do you not see how talking to other gay men would be a good thing?
Hell, most everyone feels that way at some point in their life.
Life is not fair, but yes we should do our best to make it better. Don't worry about the rest of the world right now.
Just as you do not want to be defined by your sexuality, do you want to be defined by your childhood? Is that all you are, or would you like to be something more?
I suspect blaming your parents, or asking why you are who are, is because you don't actually know who you are. Being hypercritical is holding yourself to an unfair standard. Just as you are unique, so are the challenges that lay before you. Recognizing that you have obstacles that most people don't is so you can overcome them.
We say life is cruel, not to tell you to 'suck it up', but to help you recognize that you will never have the childhood you wanted, you will never have the parents you want. I don't say this callously, when you come to this realization it will probably be one of the saddest moments in your life, but it will also be one of the most liberating. You will no longer be defined by a dream, by a delusion, by a concept of what is normal. You will just be you.
I actually usually manage to get beyond this stage, It's the relationship afterwards I can't seem to maintain. I feel when I introduce myself I tend to oversell myself with some funny observations and being a generally sympathetic person but then when people actually get to know me for the nutcase I am they tend to back away..last year in college was basically a series of blowing perfect opportunities to make friends...I actually was a pretty close friend with someone that could be considered "popular" in the meaningless college sense of the word who knew everyone on campus and tried to introduce me to his friends...but It's like I can't tune in on the same channel like everyone else...and eventually I guess he got bored with me..I get a very palpable feeling of being out of sync with my surrounding...I would say it's a kind of autism but I'm actually quite good at picking up social cues...also worth mentioning I get panic attacks in big crowds....I don't know if that might be related...
Ultimately, you are going to be defined by something that is not of your choosing. I hold the opinion that biology has the last say on who we are whether we like it or not. You might see my views as pseudo-scientific but that doesn't change the way I feel. If you haven't gleaned this already, I have a Deterministic view of the world. I don't pretend to divine the future or fully understand my phenotype, but I believe I can see certain trends in my life that will continue arbitrarily to my will.
I do think I might have a lofty criteria of what I consider a 'normal' life..but I'm never quite sure..
Nope. Of course you should strive for a better world, but focusing on past unfairnesses to the point where you don't do anything about the future is a waste of time. The civil rights movement worked precisely because it said "Yes, black people have been oppressed, but now we're going to change the future," not "Black people have been oppressed so now they're doomed for all eternity."
Well, hopefully this thread has given you some ideas. Join a club. Visit your LGBT center. Talk to people even if it makes you uncomfortable. Invite people to do things and accept invitations when you get them. Set attainable goals for yourself. Continue with therapy and work on forgiving your parents for whatever it is they did. Exercise more.
The important part is to decide to make changes in your life and then make those changes.