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Live in the Big City, the Burbs, or Small Town/City
Bamelin
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
At 32 I think things are going pretty well. Happily married and live downtown in one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world. My wife is a nurse, and I am an employment consultant. I'm actually between contracts right now but expect to be working again very shortly.
Combined income - 100k
Our situation right now is this ... been saving for a downpayment so we can buy our first home. Plan on having a child within the next 3 years. Last time we checked we were able to get pre approved for 300k with 10 percent down.
The crux of our problem is that we're not sure if we should stay in Toronto or move out of the city. Toronto is very nice in terms of standard of living (downtown is not a gutted out wasteland like other cities -- very liveable).
The flip side of this is that property is very expensive for those entering into the real estate market. It's cheap compared to other major international cities, but expensive when you're just starting out.
Option #1 -- Stay Downtown
The benefits of staying in the core include -- low transportation costs (we don't own a car, and don't need to own a car ... everything including our jobs is within walking distance/subway). Other benefits include shopping, restaurants, bars, festivals in the summer, and all the other amenities of living in the urban core of a major city. The other major benefit is that property in the core WILL go up in value fairly quickly. For kids, one might argue as well that there is alot of culture to be found in a major city ... something that will help give them a sophisticated, yet balanced view of the world.
The downside is this -- 250k will get you a 1 bedroom condo around 550 - 600 sq ft. 300 k will get you the same but with a den (around 700 sq. ft). Not exactly a ton of space when considering having a first kid and I desperately need a man room right now too for my home theatre set up. Also, although Toronto is a very livable city compared to other North American metropolis's it still has it's crime, crackheads, poverty, and so forth.
Option #2 -- Suburbs
Our second option is to move to the suburbs just outside the city -- 250k will get you a 1200 - 1500 sq ft townhome.
Benefits include - Good area to raise kids, more living space in terms of what you get for your dollar. Property values probaly stay fairly stable. Lots of amenities within driving distance as city is close by.
Downside - Ugly commute to work (2 hours or more combined there and back, unless/until we find work closer to where we live), will have to buy a car and drive to do anything from getting groceries to just going out. I'm assuming walks would be boring aside from your typical suburbia park. Lack of character in suburbs characterized by same type of housing architecture.
Option #3 -- Small Town Living
The last option is what I fondly refer to "get the hell out of dodge" choice -- This involves moving to a small town/city 1 hour and a half to two hours away from the city, and changing jobs.
250 - 300 k will buy you a big detatched house in most of these places -- we're talking 2000 sq ft or more. Basically the sort of place most folks pine for when thinking of having a family. White picket fence, two car garage, etc
Benefits -- Very likely a great place to raise a family, far removed from big city issues alot of kids face (although I'm not so naive to think that smaller towns don't have issues for kids as well). Major benefit of course is the amount of house you'll get for your buck. Wife and I are homebodies, so while we would hate to lose the urban sophisitcation of living downtown, on the other hand having a massive house might just be worth this sacrifice.
Downside -- Living in the boons. Long drive to see family/friends. Possible racism (wife and I are mixed couple). Living in the boons. Alot of the same downsides as the I mentioned in the Surburbia option above. Living in the boons. Property values probaly not appreciating that much, or even going way down. Other MAJOR downside include -- as an employment counsellor most of the "jobs" in my career are generally located in large urban centres -- may be hard for me to find work. If I do find work it may pay alot less as downtown job salaries factor in cost of living. Wife would have it easier, nurses can get jobs basically anywhere.
Basically getting "established" in a smaller city/town might be difficult, however once done, could provide a higher standard of living in terms of home and quality of life for kids.
So what do you guys think? What would you do in my place? While it's still going to be another year or two before we have to decide, I'm starting to think things over very seriously ... our first home will affect many years of our life, I'd like to make the best choice.
Combined income - 100k
Our situation right now is this ... been saving for a downpayment so we can buy our first home. Plan on having a child within the next 3 years. Last time we checked we were able to get pre approved for 300k with 10 percent down.
The crux of our problem is that we're not sure if we should stay in Toronto or move out of the city. Toronto is very nice in terms of standard of living (downtown is not a gutted out wasteland like other cities -- very liveable).
The flip side of this is that property is very expensive for those entering into the real estate market. It's cheap compared to other major international cities, but expensive when you're just starting out.
Option #1 -- Stay Downtown
The benefits of staying in the core include -- low transportation costs (we don't own a car, and don't need to own a car ... everything including our jobs is within walking distance/subway). Other benefits include shopping, restaurants, bars, festivals in the summer, and all the other amenities of living in the urban core of a major city. The other major benefit is that property in the core WILL go up in value fairly quickly. For kids, one might argue as well that there is alot of culture to be found in a major city ... something that will help give them a sophisticated, yet balanced view of the world.
The downside is this -- 250k will get you a 1 bedroom condo around 550 - 600 sq ft. 300 k will get you the same but with a den (around 700 sq. ft). Not exactly a ton of space when considering having a first kid and I desperately need a man room right now too for my home theatre set up. Also, although Toronto is a very livable city compared to other North American metropolis's it still has it's crime, crackheads, poverty, and so forth.
Option #2 -- Suburbs
Our second option is to move to the suburbs just outside the city -- 250k will get you a 1200 - 1500 sq ft townhome.
Benefits include - Good area to raise kids, more living space in terms of what you get for your dollar. Property values probaly stay fairly stable. Lots of amenities within driving distance as city is close by.
Downside - Ugly commute to work (2 hours or more combined there and back, unless/until we find work closer to where we live), will have to buy a car and drive to do anything from getting groceries to just going out. I'm assuming walks would be boring aside from your typical suburbia park. Lack of character in suburbs characterized by same type of housing architecture.
Option #3 -- Small Town Living
The last option is what I fondly refer to "get the hell out of dodge" choice -- This involves moving to a small town/city 1 hour and a half to two hours away from the city, and changing jobs.
250 - 300 k will buy you a big detatched house in most of these places -- we're talking 2000 sq ft or more. Basically the sort of place most folks pine for when thinking of having a family. White picket fence, two car garage, etc
Benefits -- Very likely a great place to raise a family, far removed from big city issues alot of kids face (although I'm not so naive to think that smaller towns don't have issues for kids as well). Major benefit of course is the amount of house you'll get for your buck. Wife and I are homebodies, so while we would hate to lose the urban sophisitcation of living downtown, on the other hand having a massive house might just be worth this sacrifice.
Downside -- Living in the boons. Long drive to see family/friends. Possible racism (wife and I are mixed couple). Living in the boons. Alot of the same downsides as the I mentioned in the Surburbia option above. Living in the boons. Property values probaly not appreciating that much, or even going way down. Other MAJOR downside include -- as an employment counsellor most of the "jobs" in my career are generally located in large urban centres -- may be hard for me to find work. If I do find work it may pay alot less as downtown job salaries factor in cost of living. Wife would have it easier, nurses can get jobs basically anywhere.
Basically getting "established" in a smaller city/town might be difficult, however once done, could provide a higher standard of living in terms of home and quality of life for kids.
So what do you guys think? What would you do in my place? While it's still going to be another year or two before we have to decide, I'm starting to think things over very seriously ... our first home will affect many years of our life, I'd like to make the best choice.
Bamelin on
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that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
While I would normally agree our situation is abit different. My wife is an Registered Nurse, meaning she'll probaly be in very large demand and the local hospital(s). The issue is more on my side of the fence, I'm not sure it will be very easy to find work in my profession ... which makes the small town choice a more difficult option.
When I was in my 20's the idea of a smaller town/city was not appealing to me. Now that I'm older and stay home playing games in my man space, location of where I live doesn't seem to be as big of an issue.
I have mixed feelings.
I enjoy being an urban dweller, but I'm realistic ... kids means making sacrifices. And to be perfectly honest I need more space (man room). 500 sq ft isn't going to cut it in our next place.
Smaller towns have cleaner air (pollution downtown is horrible), and still offer alot of amenities in terms of big box stores like Best Buy, Walmart etc ... and you can get a massive place for your dollar.
Also, I'd say with 100K combined income and good credit you can borrow more than 300K; probably closer to 370 (you may not want to to keep the payments down, but even 370 would run you about $2000/mo, plus taxes and insurance you'd still only be looking at about 1/3rd of gross income which is perfectly reasonable. Question: Is mortgage interest tax deductible in canada?
I've personally come to the conclusion I'm a city person. I could spend a couple weeks or even months outside of a city, but I'll start to yearn for the things cities provide pretty quickly. Also, I think the benefits to children of living in a city are often underestimated. Diversity is good. Living close to other people can also be a benefit, kids have to learn how to get along with others, etc.
We were renting in the city, and yeah, it was awesome being a 15min cab ride from downtown Chicago, but there's a lot of nice things about surburbia too, especially if you're looking to add a kid or twelve.
How are the city schools? Can you find a neighborhood that you'd feel safe letting the kids play outside? Do you have city parks within walking distance?
If you spend $200k on a suburban place, that'll stil get you more than a city, and give you some $ for cars.
Really I just want you to move out and miss big-city life as much as us,
For paintings in progress, check out canvas and paints
"The power of the weirdness compels me."
but they're listening to every word I say
Plenty of small towns exist within two hours of major cities! I'd say there's scant few within an hour, but in that hour-90 minute area there's dozens and dozens. At least for New York City, but I would expect Toronto to be much the same.
I currently live in Richmond, Va. Metro area population is a little over 1 million people. Plenty of bars, amusement parks nearby, tourist stuff that can be fun for non-tourists, major bands come through here regularly and within 2 hours all the time, multiple large corporations are based here, etc. Plenty of size, plenty of job opportunities, 3 best buys, 3 circuit cities, like 10 wal-marts, etc. Much smaller than Toronto, but far from a small hick town. House pricing is probably similar to what you are thinking when you talked about small towns - I paid $160k for a 1600 sq ft house in a decent neighborhood and that was a couple years ago while house prices were sky high.
I used to live in Cedar Rapids, Ia. Metro area population (includes 2 other cities which are attached, you'd never know you changed cities other than the sign telling you so) is around 250k people. Way, way smaller than toronto. Still not a backwards ass hick town where you're going to get stared at for being with someone of a different color than you are. It had everything Richmond has, imo (well, fewer best buys and wal-marts), you just didn't have to fight so damned much traffic to get to wherever you were going and has a slightly lower cost of living - if I remember right, my friend paid something like $140k for an 1800 sq ft house.
Not...really
Depends on the city and geography obviously but generally you have everything in between within 60-100 miles of any large metropolis. For example, I'm from New Paltz, New York, a small hippie town with no Best Buy, Wal Mart, or anything of the sort in it. It's mostly independent businesses (although there's some fast food and a Stop and Shop.) It's got about 12,000 people when school is in session, 6,000 when it's not. If that's too big for you, there's areas around there which have areas with less than 2,000 people (Gardiner, NY, for example) and that carries all the way down into Westchester County, just minutes from the city. It does get more suburban down there, but you can get out in the boonies if you wanted to without adding too much time to your commute. Take Brewster, NY...40 minutes from Grand Central by commuter train and you could shoot someone in your front yard there and no one would call the cops, your nearest neighbor would be so far away.
Really, small towns are all over the place near major cities, in all size and manner. You've just got to find one right for you.
If you mean someplace without big boxes, New York has them in spades within commuting distance. If you want places WITH big boxes, well, we've got those too. And so does Toronto, I'm almost certain of it (mainly because I've been around the city and the outlying areas before and it seems similar in that respect.)
I see a major cognitive problem in the above line. Sounds like you found your perfect sacrifice.
It's very hard to go from "no commute" to "stuck in a car for hours each day." It's even harder to go from "no car payment" to "car payment (or two)."
What's the point in having a "man's room" if you can't afford to put anything in it thanks to paying for cars & gas, and you can't afford to spend any time in it from driving to/from work?
I'd suggest saving hardcore and shopping within the city areas. You might find a few good deals or interesting locations that you hadn't really considered, and you might be able to explore other forms of transportation and so on. I mean, I'm "in the city" but technically I'm an old suburb, about 8 minutes (by expressway) out from downtown proper. I'm in the city limits, but my house was half the price of an equivalent house in downtown. More options, too, as the neighborhood is geared towards residences.
big cities have access to culture and food - and quality of both - that are unrivalled in the boonies. if you don't care about these things, and can find somewhere with a short commute, then maybe you should consider moving. i'd totally live in a shoebox in nyc/dc/la than in a mansion in omaha, tulsa or boise.
You wife is a nurse so she'll likely find work wherever she goes. You could easily get a job in the government as well - probably making more money than you're making now.
The only way you're going to get true value out of your dollar is by moving away. I cannot fathom paying $300k for a one-bedroom condo. That is, frankly, retarded. $300k here would buy you a gigantic, brand new home.
That's my thinking on the matter anyway.
I'm currently living in Chicago with my fiance. Our plan is to buy a condo in the city to live in for the next ~5 years, and then move out in the suburbs when we have kids so they can get a good education that doesn't involve paying tens of thousands for private school and getting then on waiting lists for preschool. I am from the suburbs and I couldn't see myself living in the city, but I have to say, it was one of the best decisions I have ever made. The diversity and quality of the restaurants alone is unmatched. We are homebodies, but there is still plenty to do... walking distance to all the popular concert venues, etc. It sounds like you are already familiar with these benefits, so I say stick with the city... you can always move when you do have kids or they are old enough for schooling.
You'll be able to buy a small house, get a small car, have space for a kid, and be a 30 minute drive from downtown, etc etc
Right, you'd have to actually want to be close to the unique amenities an urban space has to offer to make living there attractive. If you just want a nice house to stay in all the time, go for a bigger place.
Trust me, don't set yourself up so you'll have to do long commutes. It will eat away your life and the price of gas is only going to go up more.
My closest relatives are in Minnesota. My friends live in the city. But neither of which are life necessities. The person I spend the most time with is my wife, so she's pretty close by ;D
I'm not anti-car. It's just nice when you don't utterly rely on one to live your life.
Eggy you make a good point -- it's been years since I've been behind the wheel of a car or had to commute (the last 3 years it took me under 1 minute door to door to get to work). I've kept my liscense though. Not sure if I could face a long commute again in the morning (to me anything more than about 30 minutes to get to work is a "long" commute).
Hardtarget -- I like Thornhill, Richmond Hill. Those are definately nice areas just above the city but aren't new homes there somewhat pricey? When I said "suburbs" of Toronto I was thinking of Ajax, Whitby, Brampton, Mississauga, maybe Milton ... homes in those area's are still somewhat affordable.
To everyone else, I suppose I should have been abit clearer what I meant by "small town". When I said small town I was thinking of places around (Toronto folks, I was thinking of places like Barrie, Newmarket, St. Catherines) 100 k - 200 k population size.
When you live in a city of millions, 100 - 200 thousand seems small. I guess I hadn't really thought about how everyone defines "small town" though heh ... Maybe I should have said a much smaller city. Basically what Dman was talking about.
See that's kinda where my train of thought is going. Smallish city.
I've been thinking about it alot ... had to widen my job search to outside of Toronto so it's a very real possibility I could end up in a smaller city.
I still have to suggest Port Credit, lots of homes with large properties there, and fairly close to the city.
Personally, I think cities built around cars are just bad systems waiting for a new one to make them outdated. I'm a little biased though. I opt out of a lot of things like cars on an everyday level.
some are some aren't, sure as hell cheaper than in the Toronto core. What is your budget like on a home? 2 billion Russians buy a house every day in thornhill right off of the boat, it's not like they are coming in with a ton of money.
I mean why would you move to Barrie? Really? Wouldn't you rather be in a suburb across the street form Toronto where you get all the joys of being in a nice burb but if you want to do anything in the city you can because you are basically still in the city.
Well we were preapproved for about 300k, but ideally we don't really want to spend more than 225k. I was just using Barrie as an example, .... I can tell you though in Barrie, Oshawa, Whitby, Ajax, Newmarket, Kitchener/Waterloo, St Catherines or Hamilton you get will get alot more house for your money than you will get in Thornhill, Richmond Hill, Markham, Pickering or any of the suburbs that border Toronto.
Mississauga maybe ....