septus, the entire fucking point of this was so they didn't have to put INT on our gear.
And why shouldn't they when enhancement shamans and hunters have to get int? It meshes with Death Knight and Warrior armor, but it's almost like a free pass on having to acquire a dps-null stat.
And I did have a second point you know, abilities, and the mana costs of said abilities.
It would be kind of ridiculous if the base damage of feral dps abilities was 70% of what they are now, and there was some talent that gave ferals a 30% boost to all damage. Talents that are absolutely positively mandatory aren't a good idea.
They're simplifying gear sets. There's plate physical gear, and plate spell gear. There's mail physical gear, and mail spell gear. And so on, except no cloth physical gear. Plate physical gear was decided to have 0 int on it.
And about ability costs, they could do that. They could make CS and DS cost no mana. But, for whatever reason, it works now and there's no pressing need to change it. With 7 weeks to go, changes of that magnitude, and the repercussions and fixes to follow, aren't called for and balancing tweaks the rest of the way are what they want to do. Changing deep holy to have more healers-should-really-want-them talents may be simpler.
Well, the former is total mana. The latter is base mana (not counting mana from int). The gap allows for occasional Holy Wrath, Consecration, Exorcism, stuff like that.
Right. We basically have energy like rogues now, except when we cast spells we dip into that pool.
zenpotato on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
I don't know why they need to fuck around with moving JotW deeper when they could just make it give 20% of base mana instead, or maybe 25%. Ret paladins are only going to have slightly more than base mana anyway (base mana doesn't include the mana from your base intellect so you will always have slightly more than base mana), and it pretty much instantly gets rid of Holy going that deep.
I don't know why they need to fuck around with moving JotW deeper when they could just make it give 20% of base mana instead, or maybe 25%. Ret paladins are only going to have slightly more than base mana anyway (base mana doesn't include the mana from your base intellect so you will always have slightly more than base mana), and it pretty much instantly gets rid of Holy going that deep.
Hahahaha, so simple yet... so complicated? Same reason they don't give kings to someone else somewhere, I guess. IE: No real reason, just to be annoying.
I don't know why they need to fuck around with moving JotW deeper when they could just make it give 20% of base mana instead, or maybe 25%. Ret paladins are only going to have slightly more than base mana anyway (base mana doesn't include the mana from your base intellect so you will always have slightly more than base mana), and it pretty much instantly gets rid of Holy going that deep.
That's a very good point... That simple fix right there would basically solve it instantly.
Have you proposed this to Blizzard? Seems like awesome feedback.
Wavechaser on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Wouldn't it be easier just to make the deep holy talents the awesome and/or necessary to be raid healers? Then you wouldn't want the mana regen or something. I don't know if that made sense, I'm drunk.
Anywho, go ret or go home. Or prot. Or maybe holy if that's your thing.
Dongs.
PierceNeck on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
edit double poast
Dhalphir on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Wouldn't it be easier just to make the deep holy talents the awesome and/or necessary to be raid healers? Then you wouldn't want the mana regen or something. I don't know if that made sense, I'm drunk.
Anywho, go ret or go home. Or prot. Or maybe holy if that's your thing.
Dongs.
20% mana every 8 seconds is just too good to pass up no matter what you have to lose. Being able to spam Holy Light all day and not run out of mana is worth giving up almost anything in Holy.
on another note, can i get a quick check from Sunwell paladins about how much avoidance they run with? i've logged out in gear that maximises my avoidance, which you can see in my sig, but thats without regemming anything for it, since we've killed Illidan now we're considering taking a look inside Sunwell and I'd like to know what kind of chance I might have against the bosses in there.
As it stands now, I don't see anything other than a "token BoL Paladin" in the raids. The heavy MT healing will be done by the 37/0/34 Paladins.
Personally, I can live with it. Makes killing things when I out and about farming pretty hilarious.
Be damned if I get killed by anything less than 3 people in a BG too.
I just wish I could figure out what problem BoL is meant to solve. Using it for off-tank healing is sketchy at best because an avoidance streak by the tank you're healing can leave the other one screwed. It's mana cost is too high to use with situational abilities like Naj's explosion when you might see a Paladin spot heal. The only real use I see is to boost single target throughput since it looks like it will proc on heals to that target...but how useful is that? If downranking still existed I could see it allowing FoL to put out HL kind of numbers and maybe allow for more downtime between heals but without downranking it's just going to lead to a shit ton of over healing.
Thomamelas on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
so far? AOE damage in 5mans.
Dhalphir on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
possible use that i briefly explored: eliminate the need to watch your own HP by Beaconing yourself and healing as normal.
obviously BoL is not good enough to overcome 37/0/34 but that wont last
Dhalphir on
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
possible use that i briefly explored: eliminate the need to watch your own HP by Beaconing yourself and healing as normal.
obviously BoL is not good enough to overcome 37/0/34 but that wont last
It's still a lot of mana to spend to self heal with, especially with any other healers near by. And my major problem with most of the proposed solutions they revolve around moving JotW deeper. Which doesn't address the point that the deep holy tree sucks so badly that there isn't a compelling reason to spend 14 more points in the tree.
So moving it away moves Holy paladins from what looks like a fun build with a decent tool kit to a meh build with a shitty tool kit.
Thomamelas on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
So make it 20% of base mana (or more) as I proposed. That is still a solid 800-1000 mana every 8 seconds which is nothing to sneeze at if BoL is really that bad.
I stepped into Kara for the first time last night with +924 healing.
I outhealed another pally who has been the guilds primary pally healer for months and was within 20k of the priest who is RL / GL and has raided kara 2 - 3 times a week since the guild started doing kara (they've had a lot of set backs which means they haven't actually cleared it yet)
Beacon of Light is an intriguing idea, but it just is not good enough to compare to how good the low-mid stuff in Ret was. Previously holy could get away with ho-hum top-tier talents since it wasn't very enticing to go very deep into prot or ret. Even if you move JotW down and BoL edges out a hybrid spec for PvE, there's no way you'd go full holy for PvP.
Give me back the original BoL, and I'll never spec into JotW again.
I was in Beta long enough to get to heal with BoL, when it was a small AoE HoT. THAT was a nifty spell, that simply needed a bit more "umph" added to it. Even still, it wasn't "that" bad. It was ticking in the mid 500s, and I wasn't even level/rank capped on it.
Beacon of Light, in it's current inception, is t r a s h. It's a gimmick, for gimmick fights, like Mother Shaz and Saber Lashes. That's fucking stupid. Just like Prot Paladins. Olololol trash/gimmick tanks.
Give me back the original BoL, and I'll never spec into JotW again.
I was in Beta long enough to get to heal with BoL, when it was a small AoE HoT. THAT was a nifty spell, that simply needed a bit more "umph" added to it. Even still, it wasn't "that" bad. It was ticking in the mid 500s, and I wasn't even level/rank capped on it.
Beacon of Light, in it's current inception, is t r a s h. It's a gimmick, for gimmick fights, like Mother Shaz and Saber Lashes. That's fucking stupid. Just like Prot Paladins. Olololol trash/gimmick tanks.
I would like to see beacon get reversed. You heal the beacon, and everyone around it gets healed for 50% of that heal, or something like that. No need for a Hot.
I would like to see beacon get reversed. You heal the beacon, and everyone around it gets healed for 50% of that heal, or something like that. No need for a Hot.
That's great for 5-mans. That's not your job in raids. Currently, anyways. We'll see how the PvE Meta-game evolves. We're Main Tank healers. We're good at it. Blizzard tried to give us a tool that augmented that, but failed. As of right now, Holy/Ret Hybrids are packing the best tools to get the job done, while being specced for highly amusing results on the PvP/Grinding/Whatever front.
Holy isn't fun right now. That's the biggest issue.
I would like to see beacon get reversed. You heal the beacon, and everyone around it gets healed for 50% of that heal, or something like that. No need for a Hot.
That's great for 5-mans. That's not your job in raids. Currently, anyways. We'll see how the PvE Meta-game evolves. We're Main Tank healers. We're good at it. Blizzard tried to give us a tool that augmented that, but failed. As of right now, Holy/Ret Hybrids are packing the best tools to get the job done, while being specced for highly amusing results on the PvP/Grinding/Whatever front.
Holy isn't fun right now. That's the biggest issue.
I don't know, I think that still helps. You focus your crazy high crit heals on the tank, and voila, your keeping the melee group alive as a bonus. And its your crazy crit heals that keep the aoe heals good as well. Cause the high heal you give the tank, the higher you give the aoe.
Arvo on
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
I would like to see beacon get reversed. You heal the beacon, and everyone around it gets healed for 50% of that heal, or something like that. No need for a Hot.
That's great for 5-mans. That's not your job in raids. Currently, anyways. We'll see how the PvE Meta-game evolves. We're Main Tank healers. We're good at it. Blizzard tried to give us a tool that augmented that, but failed. As of right now, Holy/Ret Hybrids are packing the best tools to get the job done, while being specced for highly amusing results on the PvP/Grinding/Whatever front.
Holy isn't fun right now. That's the biggest issue.
Nothing in the healing trees shows the potential for a radical shake up with the exception of Druids who are gaining a lot more flexibility. And Disc priests might be viable. It looks like the Disc priests might be slotted into the single target healing role. But priests were fairly good single target healers anyway.
I would like to see beacon get reversed. You heal the beacon, and everyone around it gets healed for 50% of that heal, or something like that. No need for a Hot.
That's great for 5-mans. That's not your job in raids. Currently, anyways. We'll see how the PvE Meta-game evolves. We're Main Tank healers. We're good at it. Blizzard tried to give us a tool that augmented that, but failed. As of right now, Holy/Ret Hybrids are packing the best tools to get the job done, while being specced for highly amusing results on the PvP/Grinding/Whatever front.
Holy isn't fun right now. That's the biggest issue.
Nothing in the healing trees shows the potential for a radical shake up with the exception of Druids who are gaining a lot more flexibility. And Disc priests might be viable. It looks like the Disc priests might be slotted into the single target healing role. But priests were fairly good single target healers anyway.
But they have had blue posts saying that they never intended on buffing or shaking up the holy tree because it was already a very powerful tree. They only needed it to scale with everyone else.
Arvo on
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
I would like to see beacon get reversed. You heal the beacon, and everyone around it gets healed for 50% of that heal, or something like that. No need for a Hot.
That's great for 5-mans. That's not your job in raids. Currently, anyways. We'll see how the PvE Meta-game evolves. We're Main Tank healers. We're good at it. Blizzard tried to give us a tool that augmented that, but failed. As of right now, Holy/Ret Hybrids are packing the best tools to get the job done, while being specced for highly amusing results on the PvP/Grinding/Whatever front.
Holy isn't fun right now. That's the biggest issue.
Nothing in the healing trees shows the potential for a radical shake up with the exception of Druids who are gaining a lot more flexibility. And Disc priests might be viable. It looks like the Disc priests might be slotted into the single target healing role. But priests were fairly good single target healers anyway.
But they have had blue posts saying that they never intended on buffing or shaking up the holy tree because it was already a very powerful tree. They only needed it to scale with everyone else.
Right, which is more indicative of a disconnect between the player base and the developers. And keep in mind while we ate some nerfing of SA and illumination, the primary thing that screws us is encounter design. So while on paper we maybe fine, the reality is somewhat less so.
Thomamelas on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Posts
And about ability costs, they could do that. They could make CS and DS cost no mana. But, for whatever reason, it works now and there's no pressing need to change it. With 7 weeks to go, changes of that magnitude, and the repercussions and fixes to follow, aren't called for and balancing tweaks the rest of the way are what they want to do. Changing deep holy to have more healers-should-really-want-them talents may be simpler.
Well, the former is total mana. The latter is base mana (not counting mana from int). The gap allows for occasional Holy Wrath, Consecration, Exorcism, stuff like that.
Hahahaha, so simple yet... so complicated? Same reason they don't give kings to someone else somewhere, I guess. IE: No real reason, just to be annoying.
Has this idea been mentioned on beta forums yet?
That's a very good point... That simple fix right there would basically solve it instantly.
Have you proposed this to Blizzard? Seems like awesome feedback.
edit: although only ingame
Anywho, go ret or go home. Or prot. Or maybe holy if that's your thing.
20% mana every 8 seconds is just too good to pass up no matter what you have to lose. Being able to spam Holy Light all day and not run out of mana is worth giving up almost anything in Holy.
on another note, can i get a quick check from Sunwell paladins about how much avoidance they run with? i've logged out in gear that maximises my avoidance, which you can see in my sig, but thats without regemming anything for it, since we've killed Illidan now we're considering taking a look inside Sunwell and I'd like to know what kind of chance I might have against the bosses in there.
Personally, I can live with it. Makes killing things when I out and about farming pretty hilarious.
Be damned if I get killed by anything less than 3 people in a BG too.
First Blood 85 Priest 80 Mage 85 Paladin 83 Druid 80 DK 85 Huntard 85 Shaman
"Tardo Wan" sounds like a Jedi that required 436 years to train and then killed himself by looking into his lightsaber while turning it on."
I just wish I could figure out what problem BoL is meant to solve. Using it for off-tank healing is sketchy at best because an avoidance streak by the tank you're healing can leave the other one screwed. It's mana cost is too high to use with situational abilities like Naj's explosion when you might see a Paladin spot heal. The only real use I see is to boost single target throughput since it looks like it will proc on heals to that target...but how useful is that? If downranking still existed I could see it allowing FoL to put out HL kind of numbers and maybe allow for more downtime between heals but without downranking it's just going to lead to a shit ton of over healing.
obviously BoL is not good enough to overcome 37/0/34 but that wont last
It's still a lot of mana to spend to self heal with, especially with any other healers near by. And my major problem with most of the proposed solutions they revolve around moving JotW deeper. Which doesn't address the point that the deep holy tree sucks so badly that there isn't a compelling reason to spend 14 more points in the tree.
So moving it away moves Holy paladins from what looks like a fun build with a decent tool kit to a meh build with a shitty tool kit.
i don't like getting haste from judgements either
it's alright for pvp i guess but it's still sorta meh when you consider the potency of forcing a holy shock crit then following it with a holy light
its not "holy shock crits instant holy lights" OR judgement haste
you can have both
.25 seconds of HL and .15 seconds off FoL can pump up your HPS but it's still the same old spells
is it so much to ask
canthealadin?
terriblehealadin?
Holyissofuckedadin?
I stepped into Kara for the first time last night with +924 healing.
I outhealed another pally who has been the guilds primary pally healer for months and was within 20k of the priest who is RL / GL and has raided kara 2 - 3 times a week since the guild started doing kara (they've had a lot of set backs which means they haven't actually cleared it yet)
Is it meant to be this easy?
I was in Beta long enough to get to heal with BoL, when it was a small AoE HoT. THAT was a nifty spell, that simply needed a bit more "umph" added to it. Even still, it wasn't "that" bad. It was ticking in the mid 500s, and I wasn't even level/rank capped on it.
Beacon of Light, in it's current inception, is t r a s h. It's a gimmick, for gimmick fights, like Mother Shaz and Saber Lashes. That's fucking stupid. Just like Prot Paladins. Olololol trash/gimmick tanks.
First Blood 85 Priest 80 Mage 85 Paladin 83 Druid 80 DK 85 Huntard 85 Shaman
"Tardo Wan" sounds like a Jedi that required 436 years to train and then killed himself by looking into his lightsaber while turning it on."
I would like to see beacon get reversed. You heal the beacon, and everyone around it gets healed for 50% of that heal, or something like that. No need for a Hot.
That's great for 5-mans. That's not your job in raids. Currently, anyways. We'll see how the PvE Meta-game evolves. We're Main Tank healers. We're good at it. Blizzard tried to give us a tool that augmented that, but failed. As of right now, Holy/Ret Hybrids are packing the best tools to get the job done, while being specced for highly amusing results on the PvP/Grinding/Whatever front.
Holy isn't fun right now. That's the biggest issue.
First Blood 85 Priest 80 Mage 85 Paladin 83 Druid 80 DK 85 Huntard 85 Shaman
"Tardo Wan" sounds like a Jedi that required 436 years to train and then killed himself by looking into his lightsaber while turning it on."
I don't know, I think that still helps. You focus your crazy high crit heals on the tank, and voila, your keeping the melee group alive as a bonus. And its your crazy crit heals that keep the aoe heals good as well. Cause the high heal you give the tank, the higher you give the aoe.
Nothing in the healing trees shows the potential for a radical shake up with the exception of Druids who are gaining a lot more flexibility. And Disc priests might be viable. It looks like the Disc priests might be slotted into the single target healing role. But priests were fairly good single target healers anyway.
But they have had blue posts saying that they never intended on buffing or shaking up the holy tree because it was already a very powerful tree. They only needed it to scale with everyone else.
Right, which is more indicative of a disconnect between the player base and the developers. And keep in mind while we ate some nerfing of SA and illumination, the primary thing that screws us is encounter design. So while on paper we maybe fine, the reality is somewhat less so.
Also, I never realised how good the human female sword & board stance is, shame the 2h attack animations are terrible.
I like it...but the first thing I thought when I saw it was, "Holy spew!"