I've rewritten this a few times now, trying to figure out how to say exactly what I want to, and it's really not that easy. I still don't know if I did a very good job, so ask any questions, or for any clarifications, and I'll provide them.
My girlfriend and I have recently decided that we should have an open relationship. We've been dating for nearly 4 years, and we're still very happy. However, we're both each others first very serious relationship. Now, for both of us there are multiple reasons for this. One is just to be with other people, some
experience, I suppose you could say, so we have no regrets, necessarily, about never being with anyone else. But in her case, there's a bit more to it. Her ideal situation, as she has explained to me, is to have one permanent male partner (me), and one permanent female partner. But also, in looking for love and passion, the potential for her to be with other guys exists.
Now, her with other girls, experimenting, or finding a true girlfriend doesn't bother me as much. And no, not because "hot lesbians." But because I still feel (I think) like that's something...
different. It's a completely different sexual field, and one (frankly, as I have analyzed my emotions) I don't feel threatened by. I don't get weirded out by imagining her being intimate with a girl, because that's just separate somehow from me. It doesn't take away anything.
My case I proposed was to be with other girls. Not sleeping around like a dog, but to legitimately date other girls I'd be interested in. And here's what's getting to me. In my own head, I absolutely feel like anything I did with another girl would have no impact on my current girlfriend's relationship. I love her so dearly. I've had
nightmares about losing her. She knows what I'm thinking and understands how I'm feeling before
I do so often. And any other girl I found that couldn't be OK with that, wouldn't work for me. So, in my head, in my case, me being intimate or even
loving another girl, doesn't challenge or impact my feelings and desire for my current girlfriend.
But seeing her with other guys,
bothers the hell out of me. I feel like a paranoid, possessive hypocritical asshole because of this, but I just don't feel right yet about sharing her with another guy. Her passion, care.. desire... I don't know... that's
mine... Or something... I'm turned into a rambling mess by all this. I'm not sure how much this really bothers me, if it truly bothers
me or if I'm just so not used to the idea. Logically, it shouldn't. I can see her with other girls,
me with other girls, and in any case, I don't
think I feel that romance is something that can
only exist between two people. I
think I feel that it should be something that can be shared, for positively. Sex especially I
think I feel that it's completely natural. I think it'd be great,
hot, to have sex with two girls at once. Why should it bother me that she'd think it'd be hot to have sex with two
guys at once.
And yet, here I am, in such a position, with a girl who loves me, gets me, whom I get along with so well... And she's open enough to be wiling to do things like this... And I can't stop being greedy. Do I need to just grow up? Get over? I can see much more talking with her in my near future, but I don't know how to deal with my feeling just yet.
As it stands, I'd sooner give up any chance at ever being with other girls than have to worry about constantly imagining her with other guys. I just don't know what to do about this at all.
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I'm all for open relationships, but in your case it might not be the best option. If you think you won't be able to handle it, then you're probably right.
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Start with a threesome, see how it feels and have a good talk about it de facto.
This can, and will, mess with your relationship no matter how well you believe you are adjusted for it. It will change things, most likely forever. If you feel the need to prowl, take a break from the relationship and do your own things for a bit.
Really, what it comes down to is that you're playing with fire, and not everyone can swallow flames without going to the ER.
I know it sounds patronizing, but you do not want to go down this road if you are AT ALL uncomfortable with it. Threesomes are probably a lot easier to handle, stick to that and le pron.
And god don't legitimately date other girls. It's like dropping a meteor filled with jealousy on to your relationship. If you MUST, just go for, as facebook puts it "random play."
I have done the things you are proposing to do with a (likely, no offense) much more stable and long term relationship and it was like a million knives of fire to the whole thing. I have made many mistakes in my life. I had to leave college for a year because I messed up my grades so badly playing WoW and I am still catching up. Making my relationship "open" still remains the first thing I would change about my life given time travel.
I hope I am being absolutely clear what a potentially terrible idea this is. You are not playing with fire, you're playing with Uranium.
But there are a few things I want to clarify. More specifically, I think you should think about these for a while and clarify them in your own head, because seriously who gives a fuck what I think - it's all about what you think:
You've decided to have an open relationship, or to try an open relationship? What's your plan if things start to go south? Lets say you decide to do this, and things start to get tense... and it starts to threaten your own relationship... what's your back-out plan? Do you have one? Have you discussed that possibility?
What is she hoping to find right now in the next few weeks? More experience? A girlfriend? A MMF threesome? All of the above? What are her motivations for opening the relationship?
If her main desire is to find a girlfriend of her own, then my suggestion is to let her do that, but ask her to hold off on other guys until you're more settled in the whole open relationship idea. Seeing her with another girl might make you feel a little bit better about the whole situation. Again, take it slow.
(By the way, when I say "seeing her with another girl," I don't mean literally watching her fuck another girl in a lesbian porno way, but just knowing that she's going out tonight with a girl and then seeing that she can do that and then come back to you and still be your girlfriend too the next day might assuage some of your fears.)
Okay, so you'd be okay dating another girl. But it doesn't sound like you really want to. Is this something that you actually want to do, or are you just going along with it out of some sense of fairness or parity? ("If she gets to sleep with other guys, then I should get to sleep with other girls.")
Also, are you secure that she feels as strongly about you as you do about her?
Okay. It's good that you've established that your mind says one thing while your heart and gut say another. So break it down a little... what is it about seeing her with other guys bothers you? What are you afraid of? Are you afraid of her leaving you? Are you afraid that other guys are going to hurt her? Do you trust her? Do you trust her to pick male partners that you could in turn trust?
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Hey! Don't one-up my catchy sign-off line!
*AHEM*
Agreed. No matter what you may think you're "prepared for" you aren't. If you want to see other people, see other people. An open relationship will degrade your existing relationship and create an immense amount of anxiety. Not to mention the fact that there are other considerations such as monthly STD tests, the pregnancy risk from casual sex etc.
No, no, that wouldn't be how it'd work. But I did mean it when I said that for whatever reason, her with other girls, even if I'm not there, isn't something that seems like it bothers me, even now. It's like there are two switches. One for guys, one for girls. Well, she's already turned on the "guy" switch, being with me. If she wants to flip on that other switch... it's not related to me.
It's not at all that I don't care. I care very much about it. I'd want to get along with whomever she liked. I'd want her to be happy with her, and safe... But I guess I feel like it's harmless, because my girlfriend is still mine. With another guy, it's too conflicting.
I think I will probably take my doubt and insecurity about the whole issue to be my red flag not to do it, but I wish I could just figure out more how I even felt. I'm still working on it.
I almost want to do it just to figure out maybe the the fuck is bothering me. Then write it down, and get my memory erased, "Spotless Mind" style, and start this over.
And yes, of course this was also a concern of mine, but not one that needed to be discussed as much. It relates very little to my emotional state. There's not much that needs to be talked about. STDs and pregnancy are bad period.
Really, this is it.
If you want to open your relationship try a threesome. Otherwise it sounds like you just need to hear what you already know but are having a tough time admitting. We all want to make our SOs happy, but it shouldn't be to the detriment of your relationship.
But it doesn't make it less of a concern. What happens to your relationship if something like this happens? What will your mental state be like then?
Its like she's making a meal, and the kitchen doesn't have everything for a delicious roast.
So instead of going out and buying a roast, or asking you to go pick one up.
She'd rather just go find another kitchen.
I'm asking honestly and not trying to be a dick.
Do you believe that she thinks you're whipped, and will simply stay with her "just because"? If she was told for a fact this would end your relationship with her, would she still do it?
Open relationships are best for people who aren't that close or for people who have VASTLY different sexual urges. Otherwise, steer clear. While a lot of this is anecdotal, I really don't think your mileage may vary.
Trust me on this, if you let her sleep with other guys it is going to require regulation, be it MMF threesomes (which don't really need to involve any contact with you and the other guy, and trust me, if she is in the right mindset, she will appreciate it) where you are present, or done only in certain places, or only done if you know about each individual occasion. If you just say "fuck whenever wherever and just give me a status update now and then", you are putting a lot more at risk.
These scenarios can strengthen relationships, I've seen it happen, but it does not take much to form inseparable bonds with your additional partners (especially HER additional partners) that make things complex in some cases.
If I had any recommendation I would say that you should really compose some form of formal commitment to each other, such as getting engaged, and that makes it a little less accessible for her to simply leave you if she finds someone she deems could be better.
we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
We have decided to try, really. And we have discussed what happens if either of us feels uncomfortable, and that's that we stop. We were talking about this from about midnight until 8 a.m., and we both decided to us, we are more important than anything else, that we come first. So more important than any of this, our own comfort and emotions come first.
The way she put it is that she may want to experiment will girls, the specific example was, "if I kiss a girl", there wasn't a whole lot of talk about sex. But no, this goal in particular of hers is, on the whole, long term. The image she provided was lying under a comforter at Christmas, the three of us, whoever that third is. She has stated specifically that she doesn't really want another guy, but it came more to, "what if?"
I, I did assume that was what you meant.
I certainly have no one currently in mind. I suppose this is more borne out of, as fantastically as I feel about her, what else? She is my first. I never really got intimate with anyone else. Never held anyone else, laughed/cuddled with anyone else. These silly romantic things... It's really not about the sex. There's a... a warmth, connection that exists in relationships, and it seems wasteful, given only one life, not to be as happy as you can be with as many people. Not in the fuck-all hedonistic way, but a more sensible approach.
As secure as I could possibly be. I feel naive and almost silly saying this. You've no real reason to trust me, and a thousand different scenarios exist where I could be totally wrong. But I do know feels very deeply about me. At one point she mentioned that while she doesn't believe in soulmates in the, "only one person for you" way, she does believe that, in all the planet, there's a.. a "top tier" of individuals that'd be best for you, and that she considers me "top tier." (and I so amy) I feel the same about her.
I don't know exactly what bothers me about seeing her with other guys. The emotion feels almost like betrayal though. Like, she's selling secrets to the enemy. I don't know if this is something simply societally ingrained (probably), or something I could get over (who the hell knows...). I'm most afraid of not being able to see her the same anymore. Of not being able to get over it. I feel like Holden, from Chasing Amy. Except nothing's happened yet, of course.
I trust her, and my concern isn't about whether the guys would hurt her. I mean, I obviously care about that, but that's not this concern.
I haven't, up until now, really even contemplated her being with a guy that I could like, platonically or sexually. That might be different, in fact that might be a lot different. In that case, really, it wouldn't be the two of us, and her boyfriend. It would be "the three of us." But now I just have a hard time feeling like it could work out so well.
This is much safer (and saner.)
I've come across numerous cases of a couple having a "girlfriend."
You should, as we have said before, just go slow. If this really is primarily about the girls, then find one together. Make a game out of it, go to the bars and try to meet people, together. In all the cases where I have seen this work, it has been a "team effort" and has resulted in a relationship between two entities, "the couple" and the girlfriend.
Yeah, I agree with this.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Thank you all for the help. I truly was tossed in the air about all this, but giving it thought, I, as well, think this would work. I know I would be far more comfortable with it, and I truly think she would as well. I'll talk with her tonight, and give you the final word tomorrow, but I'm fairly sure things will go well.
Again, thank you greatly for the help. If not specifically for the advice, then for listening and offering me the channels to talk about it.
So don't do it.
You aren't happy with the idea, so why go ahead?
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"The power of the weirdness compels me."
I also wanted to add that your desire for the warmth of relationships... yeah you aren't really going to get any more of that by dating other people on the side.
More sex, different sex, excitement and experimentation are all valid reasons to try an open relationship. Feeling a deep intimate bond with your side girls isn't going to happen.
https://medium.com/@alascii
My boyfriend and I have an open relationship. At first, he felt much like you do: okay with the idea of other girls, not okay with other guys but more because of a gut feeling than any specific reason. As we continued and he became more and more secure that I wasn't going anywhere, he started feeling more comfortable with the idea of me with other guys. We talked about it and talked about it and talked about it some more, and after a long time, he decided it didn't bother him anymore. It's worked really well.
If you are going to try an open relationship in any form, though, here's what you need.
1. The big one: communication. If you're not already the kind of people who talk to each other about EVERYTHING, and I mean everything, it's not going to work. You need a constant, open dialogue.
2. Managing expectations. Here's the thing about the oh-so-scandalous open relationship: it's not going to be any different most of the time. For example, I do something outside my relationship maaaaaybe 2-3 times PER YEAR, less if I'm busy or just being hermitish. It's nice when it happens, but mostly it's just the two of us, so if you're not already happy with your relationship, don't count on dating/sexing up other people to improve it.
3. Not keeping score. One person in an open relationship is always going to be getting more play than the other. It's usually the girl, especially if she's bisexual. If the idea of her maybe getting four or five times the amount of attention than you are bothers you, you need to work on that or give up the idea of an open relationship.
Edit: There's a wealth of information on polyamory (relationships with multiple people, which sounds like what your girlfriend wants) and just plain old open relationships (mostly just flings or extra-relationship sexings). I suggest you do lots of reading while you're considering the idea.
Speaking as someone who has had a couple very successful open and "poly" relationships, I say from experience that it can work. Not only that, but it can be very rewarding and fun. At the same time, I can also say from experience that a gung-ho partner pushing a hesitant partner into it can only end in tears.
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like other people suggested, a threesome is a decent place to start but again only if both of you are fully invested and comfortable with it. threesomes and open relationships, unlike most other sexual acts, have the potential to change a relationship deeply and should be approached with caution.
Tell her what you ARE and ARE NOT comfortable with and see if you can reach some sort of agreement. It probably won't be objectively fair at all but that's how it's gotta be for the two of you to remain happy and sane in an open relationship. If it means that she can only mess around with girls, and you don't mess around AT ALL, ask yourself if you are comfortable with that...if you're ok with that then that's fine. Maybe she'll be ok with both of you only messing around with girls, hard to say.
Secret Satan
First, when I told her I wasn't comfortable with her and guys, she in then turn said she wasn't comfortable with me and girls. This wasn't a vindictive sort of behavior, but when she thought I was perfectly OK with it, and that I understood, she in turn figured there was nothing to worry about and in turn understood. When I turned around and was not comfortable with it, she wondered what terrible association I had with hetero-outside partners that I would bar her from doing anything, and changed her mind about me and girls. This created sort of an impasse, but we worked through it.
She also discussed in fuller details her true intentions for this whole deal. The core goal was in fact to find, or be given the permission to look for, a permanent female partner. That was the big goal. Her secondary goal was something a bit different, and more along the lines of, "just sex." She didn't want to go looking for guys, but she never dated, and really as soon as she decided to start looking, she found me, and that was it. Closed book. So she wanted the chance to be able to accept offers if they came to her. The ability to be free in choosing, to be whimsical. She made it clear it was fairly clearly about the sex. She also reads a lot of Laurel K. Hamilton, so that could have a lot to do with it.
By the end of the night, I wasn't entirely sure if she changed her mind about the guys, bit, but as I understand it, we came more, finally, to a decision that sexually speaking, threesomes were a better idea. MMF or FFM. I think for my own sense of sanity, we'll stick with FFM for now, and she'll be... not so much looking as on the lookout for herself.
It seemed to have worked out well this way, and the night ended well.
Decide if you OK with losing the girl, if so, then open the relationship for possible short-term gain, otherwise, get over your oat-sewing instincts and get on with one of the main difficulties of a monogamous relationship, monogamy.
edit: reading the previous post, threesomes sounds more reasonable, tbh though it still doesn't sound like a good idea for the relationship.
This is absolutely wrong. Open relationships can and do work, although they're not for everyone. Closed relationships aren't for everyone, either. Plenty of people don't freak out at the thought of their partner fucking someone else, and monogamy is no more "romantic" or "ideal" than nonmonogamy. It's all about what works for the individual people involved.
And yeah, everyone knows people who had an open relationship and then broke up. Guess what? Even more people had a closed relationship and then break up. Most relationships end, and that's a good thing.
I guess it sounds like the OP's girl just wants the freedom to have some one night stands. I'm not sure if that really qualifies as an "open relationship" so much of a "hey, mind waiting around while I go get my freak on?"
I would consider just...not doing it, if you can't be fair about it. That or if you're really ok with her being with women, just tell her that that's fine, but you aren't going to be with anyone else, yourself, and that she has to tell you about it when she is.
Secret Satan
Yeah.. I'd disagree... but I will say in the case of the OP... Open relationships almost always fail when they are not how the relationship was formed. In almsot every case I've seenw here a closed relationship has become an open.. it is not actually a mutual agreement, it's a one sided agreement that the other side was either convinced into going along with, or had given no real thought to.
In this case... will it work? I'd say it's not worth it at this point. The OP has already admitted concerns and misgivings about this. He's already expressing feelings of jealousy and betrayal at the thought of possible outcomes this may have.. and those cannot exist in an open relationship and have it last long.
Maybe in the future he will feel different... maybe they will start slow enough and he will become acustomed to the idea of this all and it will work out great. But he and his GF need to concider if it's worth the destruction of their relationship as it stands now (and likely in its entirety) to try this.
Risk vs reward at it's simplest. The Op needs to decide this for himself, and so does his GF. Maybe this is really important enough to her to risk this even if he has misgivings, in which case he only has the choice of going along with it or breaking up with her.
I will say (in my opinion) sex is not a very good reason to look for someone else to join into your private relationship... Unless it is 100% ABOUT having another person, and not just "trying new things", there's plenty of ways to switch it up. If one or both want something more, then talk about it and experiment... there's very little that cannot be done with just 2 people... you simply need to be open with each other. If the partner doesn't want to communicate, or isn't willing to accomodate new things at all... then perhaps there's deeper issues at hand.
All things being equal, sex with one person is not much diferent than it is with another. There's no great insight into the secrets of the universe to be gleaned from nookie with 1 person vs nookie with 36. All it does is up the "notches" on your belt/bed post.
If you both still go forward with this, I will echo the sentiment of keeping it to a threesome... the extra female seems to be more what she's looking for, and the one to be the most agreeable to you as well.
To further another point... this extra girl is not "your girlfriends girl", she should be both you and your GF's "girl" as it were. That doesn't mean you should/get to do anything with her romantically speaking, but you should know her, be friendly with her, and be comfortable not just with your GF being with her, but with her being part of your relationship (be it a one night/short term thing or ongoing).
It also is usually worse than having sex with your partner, assuming your partner isn't, well, awful.
I guess I am somewhat in the same boat as you but I feel I already have everything I want. Although I'm not really qualified to say your not missing out by sticking with one girl, I'm saying it anyways.
In my opinion comparisons always lead to unhappiness. You could spend your life comparing yourself or your partner to other people, comparing your job to other jobs, comparing your house to other houses. If you examine your life closely you can always find something that could be better and cite someone else as an example, but if you put that person's life under as close scrutiny as your own you will find faults with them. I'm not saying you shouldn't try to improve your life, which may include finding a new partner, but I am saying happiness is pretty much all in your head. If you think you are missing something, or unhappy, you need to figure out why, not just go gallivanting off thinking you will magically find it with a different person by chance.
I don't think "I'm missing out on casual sex" is a valid response. What is it about casual sex that appeals to you?
I can understand bringing a third person into the equation, but I still find the fact that you both wanted to go have sex independently and agreed not to only because you would be jealous of each other a problem. If it is something one or both of you really did want and not just some sort of weird bargaining chip in the discussion that eventually led to agreeing to bring in a third person then you need to talk about it.
https://medium.com/@alascii
Depends... Bi, striaght, or gay... either you want to be in a relationship with just one person, or you don't. In the case of someone who is Bisexual and also into closed relationships, you would only want to be with that one person.. it just wouldn't matter if they are same sex or different. Assuming the OP's Gf is bi curious and at least not adverse to a closed relationship (such as it has been for the duration thus far), then a lot of this comes down to how badly she wants to experiment vs how bad she wants to keep this relationship.
She could easily tell the op she's going to go find a woman to try things out with and he can either accept it or get lost... but it doesn't sound like this rates as high on the scale as what she has already... hence it's up to discussion.
In hindsight, I should have called it quits the moment I said to myself "I don't really want this but maybe I'll come around". YMMV, but for me it's just not the kind of thing that I can adapt to accept, and I was naive to think I could. I'm not saying this is guaranteed to fail... but consider the possibility that you're just not ever going to feel any better about the idea of her with other guys, and ask yourself if you really want to have to put up with that.
Similar story, the girlfriend and I are still together (hi honey), but to say being open didn't hurt us would be a lie. She was very loyal to me at the time and so she tried to come around. Well, I don't think either of us really did and it hurt a great deal. We're not near where we were beforehand in terms of trust and affection, but there is still a good deal of love there. The only reason I think we're still together is we realized sexually we are quite enough for each other and that we really loved each other and both deserved a second chance.
We talked a lot more in great detail about it, and we're still going through with it, but now I feel much better at it. She searched for a while on-line for some help groups or something to help her better explain how she felt, and she found this page which said pretty much what she wanted to say, but a little more thought out, no offense to her of course.
I realized I was feeling jealous, and the main reason why was due to some insecurities I had about my worth and such to begin with. We talked more and more about it, and we're going forward, currently only looking for one female third for the relationship, not just her, while also leaving ourselves open to whatever else may happen.
We're certainly still taking it slow for my consideration and sanity, but I, overall, feel much better about the whole situation. We're both more comfortable, in fact.
I'm not really the one to give on advice on this matter, mainly because I don't see the draw in going through with something like this. I really don't understand the mindset behind it.
You see, you really like your girlfriend. She wants the relationship to be "open" which translates into "I want to be with other people too, not just you." which also means that anything henceforth will be a shell of what it used to be.
When you say that her being with another girl is "just separate somehow" from you, you're rationalizing. Yes, it's a girl, and yes, that girl is filling something you can't. It's the exact same thing.
There's this huge fundamental flaw in logic when in one breath you say you want to, "legitimately date other girls [you'd] be interested in." then say, " I've had nightmares about losing [my current girl]." There's absolutely no other reason to date any other girls when you've got one right in front of you. Of course you're going to feel jealous.
Not true at all, unless I should go tell my boyfriend that our happy, very close relationship is a shell. Monogamy is not better or more "romantic," it's just one of many ways to run a relationship, and it works better for some people than others.
I'd say that it is far more accurate to say that it works at all for some people, not just better. Mono vs Poly is not something you can just try and guarantee any measure of success in... for some people, it just won't work for them.
First off, it's not necessarily just sex. If I wanted to get my rocks off on something that wasn't my girlfriend's pussy, I could buy a Fleshlight. That's not the point, though. The point is to have relationships with different people. And, yeah, some of those relationships might just be about casual hookups, but not necessarily all of them.
Second, sex can be very different with different people. Not everybody likes the same things, not everybody does the same things in bed. And people have moods, go through phases, go out of town, get sick, get stressed out from work, etc. and just aren't interested in having sex when you are.
Third, people aren't interchangeable. Think about all your friends. Can you honestly tell me that hanging out with your college drinking buddy is exactly the same as hanging out with your best friend for years? Different people fulfill different emotional needs; and just because you have friendships with people who aren't your best friend doesn't mean your best friend means any less to you.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Say you have a kid. You love this kid dearly and with all your heart. You decide you want a second kid. Now, I'm going to assume, given the logic here, that it's because your first kid doesn't satisfy you enough, and that after this second kid comes along, you won't love your first kid as much. I imagine that people with even four kids basically don't love their children at all.
Oh, and because I liked this quote so much about sex,
and finally these.
I love my current girlfriend more than anything I can imagine. I'd be very surprised if another girl came close. It doesn't even make sense to ask why she isn't enough. For me, she is. But this is different. It's not about not being satisfied, it's... hm. Ok, one more quote.