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Doubts About Attending Law School
Merkwurdigliebe Ph.D
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So when I was much younger the only two jobs I really though about getting were 1)writer for EGM and 2)lawyer. Being a lawyer never seemed quite right, I shirk away from the responsibility of being a litigator or taking command of a courtroom, but it stuck with me. I think of myself as a very analytical person, I think I would be a decent lawyer at worst (although I'm sure I would be working in the corporate/contracts/real estate side of things) with the potential to be pretty damn good.
That's my problem, I've never really lived up to my potential and know this, but not to sound like an ass but I've never really been confronted by something to demand this. Part of this is that I'm not an alpha male type, I don't seek out challenge. I'm the typical no extracurricular type. I also know that I need something like this to whip me into shape. The fear of failure motivates me more than anything so if I was in law school, I would kill myself preventing that from happening. My hope is that law school itself would motivate me into being the kind of person I need to grow into to succeed in post graduate life.
At the same time, my analytical side tells me I do NOT know if this is what I want to do. This isn't my one true calling as far as I know and I've seen more than enough articles and heard more than enough lectures to know that the standard line is that if you aren't sure that this is what you want, stay away.
So... any advice?
Some stats: (sorry if they make me look the braggart)
My LSAT score with limited studying: 164
My GPA at a reasonably ranked public school, advertising degree with moderate effort: 3.97
The cost of one year at the law school I'm likely to go to: $9,600 in tuition (my undergrad debts are pretty minimal as well)
That's my problem, I've never really lived up to my potential and know this, but not to sound like an ass but I've never really been confronted by something to demand this. Part of this is that I'm not an alpha male type, I don't seek out challenge. I'm the typical no extracurricular type. I also know that I need something like this to whip me into shape. The fear of failure motivates me more than anything so if I was in law school, I would kill myself preventing that from happening. My hope is that law school itself would motivate me into being the kind of person I need to grow into to succeed in post graduate life.
At the same time, my analytical side tells me I do NOT know if this is what I want to do. This isn't my one true calling as far as I know and I've seen more than enough articles and heard more than enough lectures to know that the standard line is that if you aren't sure that this is what you want, stay away.
So... any advice?
Some stats: (sorry if they make me look the braggart)
My LSAT score with limited studying: 164
My GPA at a reasonably ranked public school, advertising degree with moderate effort: 3.97
The cost of one year at the law school I'm likely to go to: $9,600 in tuition (my undergrad debts are pretty minimal as well)
Merkwurdigliebe Ph.D on
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I'm sure you can get a good job outside the litigation racket if it doesn't feel right. Maybe check out the prospects of journalism school before you choose.
The initial push to reconsider law school came from the realization that some cush ass law jobs existed out there, like real estate law. Whether that is still the case with the market as it is I don't know.
As for journalism, I gave it a try, it was alright but lit no fire in me. I found the writing process infuriating as sub-mediocre editors slashed my decent story to pieces so they could cram sentences in the arbitrary order they wanted.
Lots of introverted and hereto unmotivated people attend law school successfully. If you plan to go to a big firm, you won't be making a full courtroom argument for the next decade or so. Real estate work (of which there is none at the moment, but by the time you are looking for jobs the market will have picked up or we'll all be in a bread line anyway), and corporate work generally, still requires interpersonal skills and the capacity to negotiate. Law is more of a learned craft than something you have an innate capacity to do, and much lawyering isn't very hard, anyway. It requires more discipline, dedication and perfectionism than creativity or intelligence. Those things are necessary too, but they're not as important, even if you're writing a supreme court brief.
Law school isn't worth the time and effort unless you go to a well-ranked school, however. Grades are semi-random, and in any event you can't predict how you'll do. The better the school you go to, the less grades matter. At Emory, you'd have to be top 25% or higher to get a good job coming out, and the bottom 25% probably struggle to find any meaningful legal employment. At a Harvard, a Penn, or a Georgetown, the top 70-90% of the class have no trouble finding good work. I'm going to a big firm after I graduate, and in exchange for working 2400 hours a year, I am going to make like $200k a year at 25 - that's pretty nice. On the other hand, I know plenty of people, mostly at 2nd-4th tier schools, who only did average their first year and are still hustling to find something after employment.
I would definately go to one of the top 14 schools, and if you could get $, one of the top 18 or 20 might be a good bet - having $ reduces your risks. If you don't get money, or go to a less good school, you risk paying out six figures and having NO way to earn it back reasonably.
You have an EXCELLENT GPA, which can't be gamed, and you have a really good LSAT, which could be gamed plenty. If you're doing this well, you have no business going to some state school that costs $9k and won't give you any job prospects. Study for the LSAT, and if you can break 167 or 168, you have a really good shot at top schools like harvard, nyu, or columbia, and getting lots of $$ at very very good place like Penn or Georgetown. If you can do 170 you're a lock for yale, and your legal career (or non-legal career - the prestige and connections afforded by a yale law degree takes people into all sorts of field like politics, publishing, entertainment, business, other forms government service...)
If you have the brains and ability there is no reason not to.
Its not like some other degree like econ or history. When you finish law school if you pass the bar thats a tool you keep in your pocket for life. Even if you never work in a courtroom setting you instantly get to put Lawyer on all your shit and resumes and command serious money for it.
Also since you're only paying 10 grand a year it sounds like you are not going to a top tier school so don't expect massive money right out of law school. If you want to work for one of those firms that will pay you 200k right out of the gate you really need to attend a top tier school. But you can transfer after your first year. It is not unheard of for the top 10 percent of a class at a lower ranked school to transfer to new schools for the second and third year.
Im massivily hung over right now so this might not be making perfect sense but My father, brother in law, and sister are all lawyers and I applied to law school and did not go. (found a better job) but to this day its something i consider still doing just because its so valuable. Also if you did go just think of all the cool stuff you learn. And all the other threads in here that say get a lawyer you would already have one!
tldr Go to fucking law school. Don't over analyze shit. Just fucking go.
Go to fucking law school.
On the other hand I'm not positive about the school. I have to stay in Georgia for family reasons, which means Emory, GA State, and UGA. UGA and GA State are both considered fantastic bargains but aren't top tier schools. GA State is up and coming to a degree and has fantastic connections in Atlanta. More importantly it's half the price and since I have no desire of working 90 hours a week for 200k I can't enjoy, I'm thinking the lower tier won't hurt me that much. My goal is to come out making 60k-70k, that's enough for me to live on and pay off debts and that's all I'm interested in for the next decade or so.
I don't doubt that I can do well in law school so assuming a top 25% at GA State, I think I can achieve those goals. Opinions?
Don't sell yourself short. Go to the best highest ranking school you can afford in georgia. Also its not like Alabama is real far away you might want to check there too. (really there are not many good law schools in the south anyway so you are probably better off staying in georgia.)
Look at it this way. Lets say you go to school A and make your 80k a year but you could have gone to school B you just didnt.
Now your firm hires a new lawyer and pays him 90K because he went to school B you both are doing the same job but he makes 10k a year more than you JUST BECAUSE OF HIS SCHOOL. wouldn't you feel like a sucker then?
Go to the best school and get the best degree you can. (your law schools rank and status really has a monster impact on your job prospects once you finish. more so than just about any other field)
You go to a Georgia school at your own peril. You're better off finding something else to do, like an MBA or IT work, than go to a Georgia law school. Everybody entering UGA or Emory knows they'll have to get in the top 25% if their investment is going to be worth it. Therefore, if they attend, they expect to be in the top 25%. This means 100% of the school thinks they're going to be in the top 25%; 3 out of 4 will be wrong. The odds are very good you'll be wrong, then.
The reason i'm telling you to a school good enough where grades don't determine your outcome is that you can't guarantee or predict your performance. The lower tier of a schol will hurt lots; law is a prestige-oriented profession, and the pick of jobs and respect goes to people at the better law school. Twenty years after your graduation, people will care where you went to school. This isn't irrational, either. There are real, substantive differences in the education and training you get at a top school, the quality of your fellow alumni, and the significance of your grades in relation to other students.
There aren't any 60-70k jobs for law grads. It's a valley distribution -with 30-50k public interest/low-end gov't law jobs on the left, and the big paying firm jobs on the right. You can -start- at a big place and then go smaller. You can't start at a small, less prestigious place and go bigger. There's a great article on income distribution for law grads here:
http://www.elsblog.org/the_empirical_legal_studi/2007/09/distribution-of.html
You're only going to make that 60-70k range if you a) are a clerk for a judge, or b) take an elite DOJ starting position. For both, you'll need to have gone to a top 14 school.
Those "connections" at emory or UGA are going to help mostly with getting local public interest jobs, or jobs as a prosecutor or public defender. All of those things are almost entirely courtroom experiences, which isn't what you want.
Mid-size firms that do corporate work don't have the capacity or inclination to take on recent graduates. So, they hire burnouts from big firms willing to make the trade you're willing to make in terms of time + income. They come talented, smart and trained already, a much better deal than trying to train a snot-nosed bar graduate. In contrast, the high-turnover and selectivity of big firms gives you a) a structured training program, b) a constant demand for young associates, and c) excellent exit options. The point isn't the money, per se, as the immeasurably value resume signal that you are a talented lawyer.
This is especially true for corporate work, where the big firms have way, way better work, lots more work, and will teach you how to do things. If you want to begin a career in real estate or corporate work, you're going to have to leave GA and go to NY or LA for a few years.
I'd say that with your scores (pretty much the only thing law schools care about is your LSAT and your GPA) you have a good shot at getting into one of the top schools kaliyama mentioned. I think it's a good idea to not look at your tuition fees as something you have to pay, but as an investment - one that you'll have a direct hand in getting good returns on. If you put $35k/year into a top school instead of <$10k/year into a no-name school, you'll have a much easier time paying it off just because of the salary you'll command once you graduate.
I mean, $35k/year for 3 years is $105,000. Add in... i don't know, $20k/year living expenses, it comes to $165,000 total for 3 years. Just as an example, the firm I work for currently pays their summer associates $160,000. For a summer's work. They haven't even gotten their JD yet. In 3 months they'll make enough to pay their entire tuition and living loans.
Now, obviously every firm is different. But the ones that draw from the top tier schools pay accordingly. The extra money you pay to go to a top school will only be out of your pocket for 3-4 years at the most. I know money isn't your only concern, but it's something to think about.
I had just written an equally long post, and was glad I refreshed and saw that Kaliyama had eloquently said all I had attempted to. If you want to be a lawyer because you think you enjoy law, go anywhere and be prepared to work your tail off or be broke. If you want to make lots of money (or even just earn a decent living), go to the best school you can.
As a side note, I would recommend interning at a local firm that interests you, I learned a lot working at a small auto insurance firm as an undergrad and gained invaluable insight about the profession, and the foundations of a local network for when I look for a job. Maybe try a year or so as a paralegal or clerk if you aren't sure law is for you. If you do well, there might even be a lawyer position for you 3 years down the road.
And I'm sure Frylock will come in here and give his usual great advice about law and lawyers. Dude knows his shit.
George Mason University in Arlington, VA is very favorably reviewed and their tuition is practically nothing for in-state, so looking at tuition is not always a great indicator either.
George Mason apparently shot up in the ratings recently. They poured a whole bunch of money into getting top-of-the-field professors and have built a solid program.
In DC, the Georgetown kids look down on the GW kids, and everyone looks down on George Mason, but the reality is that they have a brand new building, a very good program, and cost about half what the DC schools cost. Not a bad deal.
Unfortunately all of the top schools are, like you say, in the West or North East and while I in spirit would have no problem going, in effect I don't think I can. Like I said there are some familial reasons why I can't really leave the state so Emory might be the best I can manage. It'll be something I have to really think about.
I was hoping to get applications out by the end of the month so I'll have some serious thinking to do.
Re: Location & Money
If you take a look at the top 14, there are certainly good southern schools - Duke and UVA are fantastic.
In terms of money, if you do well on your LSAT, like 168+, which is very very possible with prep, then you could be looking at only paying 10-20k a year for those schools if you get offered $. In any event, paying 30k/yr for a Duke is a much better life investment than 10k/yr for UGA.
Re: Application Timing
Did you take the october LSAT? If not, you may want to wait until next year- you can still apply with the december LSAT but admissions are on a rolling basis, which will affect the odds of your admission or how much scholarship money you're offered.
Re: Geographic Limitations
Are you sure you can't leave the state for three years? To be honest, it doesn't make a lot of sense that your restriction is Georgia rather than say, Atlanta. If you're willing to move a few hours drive from where you live, you might as well live in DC or NY and be a few hours away by plane. If it's a family care situation, like an elderly relative, then you might consider postponing law school; at least for 1L, you won't have much time to care for other people.
Yes...there are successful alumni from every law school in the country. Though, to be honest, being GS-15 may well just mean you've been in civil service for a long time. Lawyers start out at GS11.
But the point isn't to play an anecdotal game about whether we know someone who went to an OK school and did well; it's a game of averages. On average, students from Harvard, Berkeley, Stanford, etc. have vastly better outcomes than Vermont students. It isn't rational to bet tens of thousands of dollars in Vermont tuition on the hope of being one of the few who excel. You have no way of knowing what your GPA will be. And to excel at Vermont you have to really be at the very top of your class in today's competitive marketplace. There's no room for error - no having your computer crash before or during an exam, no getting sick during your prep periods, no slow typing, no sudden attack of nerves screwing up your answer.
GS-15 and they are all in their early 30s. And one in particular has been offered and turned down an SES job because it would have been too much time away from her kid.
Not everyone wants a super high-profile, high-paying job. I was just trying to counter the idea that if you're not T-14, you're trash (which is a sentiment that has a lot more to do with the insecurities of T-14 students than the quality of all the other schools and belongs in the comments section of Above the Law, not H/A).
An aside on the anecdotes: That's awesome! I don't know anyone with SES who doesn't have gray hair, so it's a big achievement. But I think you miss my point; I agree wholeheartedly that some Vermonters will do well. However, on average, HLS students are going to be more successful than Vermont students. The OP can get into a T14 school. He has a much better option than betting three years of his life, tens of thousands of dollars, and thousands of hours of hard work on being one of the vermonters that win the career lottery. I think it depends on the agencies, but at least some of the most elite divisions (State L, DOJ Civil Rights) are super selective and very much care what school you go to. Even if some places are egalitarian, you'll never narrow your appeal by going to a t14 school.
For the record, I don't attend a T14 school. My opinion comes from my work a Professor's longitudinal studies on student outcomes in law school. I got lucky and turned out OK at a lower-ranked school, but had I known what I know now about the hiring and clerkship market, I would have either retaken my LSAT or done something else entirely.
If people really tell you you're trash for not going to a T14, that is a personal insecurity. I have no doubt plenty of people from those schools engage in ego protection about how their alma mater makes them a better person.
It doesn't harm T14 people to have inflated sense of self worth, though - the legal market and culture respects people for their institutional background. They'll be OK, if annoying. You can afford to overestimate your ability and prospects when you're going to have a good outcome regardless. I don't think that the emphasis people put on one's school is fair or sensible, but it's the reality.
The real problem is that EVERYONE overestimates their abilities and chances for success. This form of ego-reinforcement in T14 students leads to school snobbery. For everyone else, it's this mentality that "i'm just as good as they are" and the refusal to see any big-picture difference in education, talent or ability between t14 graduates and tier 4 graduates. It makes sense to judge a person by their work product, rather than their law school, but in a world where it's hard to evaluate the talent and potential of new lawyers, filtering them by school and GPA is the best option available.
Furthermore, school rank is a broadly accurate but imprecise signal of a student's combination of education, talent and drive. Employers recognize this. Even if the quality difference between highly ranked law schools and the rest is is unfair or acknowledging it is snobby, it is even less rational to dogmatically insist that your prospects for any kind of work - public interest, in house, private firms, for any permutation of hours, pay, and prestige, will be just as good coming out of Vermont as they will Yale.
Like I said, I don't think evaluating people by school rank is an efficient sorting mechanism, but it's the one we have. The OP can either overhaul the legal culture or he can play the game and go to the best school he can. I'm not condoning a system that will permanently stunt his career because he goes to UGA or Emory. But you shouldn't pretend that to a Georgia school won't put him at a disadvantage for the rest of his legal career. Don't let the need to grind your axe sink the OP's career. He should make his decision knowing the full cost of his decision to go to a lesser-ranked school, especially with his stellar credentials.
My friend is a trainee at Allan & Overy. I think trainee salaries are about the 40k quid range, and junior associates get ~65k. While it is less, especially given the London COL and differences in taxation, it is important to keep in mind that we end up paying for 4 years of undergraduate education and 3 years of law school. Even if you spend an extra year for a conversion, you're paying a fraction what we are for the education. Given that most attys don't spend more than 3 or 4 years in a big firm, what the salary difference amounts to is law firms subsidizing the cost of your education, rather than the state. This has grossly distorting effects on the legal markets, as law schools a) raise costs/salaries to keep professor salaries somewhere in sight of associate slaries, and b) realize they can get away with charging more $$ the more junior associates make.
This forces lesser-ranked schools to follow suit to remain competitive for hiring professors. So kids at a top ranked school rationally make a decision to go $150k in debt, knowing they can pay it off in a few years. But at the bottom, the students pay just as much and only half of them (or less at some places) will even pass the bar, let alone find legal employment.
One thing that will help you is working over your summers building a resume that establishes what you want. My wife had a series of internships and clinics that showed that she had experience and good recommendations for doing the kind of law (family) that she was interested in.
Sure. Besides, there are plenty of different career options open to those who study law/become lawyers. I spent around 6 years years at law school (undegrad/post grad) with an aim to be in the civil service but as I worked jobs while in college I found that I preferred the business/corporate world. Different horses/courses.
Also worth considering: it is tough if not impossible to be self-supporting and a full-time law student at the same time. You will either need considerable family support for your living expenses (which, notably, are generally higher at those top-tier law schools simply by virtue of location), or you will have to incorporate it into your loan. This is the part where not having a well-off family really pushes the prospect of law school outside the realm of plausibility to many otherwise capable students.
There is a mindset behind being a lawyer that I think you scratch upon as well - it can often involve a host of character traits that are not always compatible with all people. Many people (if not the majority) in America go to law school simply because it is a prestige profession and a "terminal" degree for those who want to turn a nebulous Humanities / Social Science major into a more focused prospect of career success. I've had at least a few friends go to law school, and from the admissions process forward the notions of ranking, placement, relative positions and such become paramount. Decision making based on personal preference, both before you enroll and after you're in and studying, and as suggested by some of the other posters in the thread, is not going to fly because any action taken without an analysis of what it provides and what it costs could be seen as a credible threat to your prospects of success. It varies from campus to campus and probably even from year to year, but even at a fairly liberal school like Yale, it's will be looming.
My point being, as a self-described type-B personality, you may be setting yourself up for misery if you go to a gung-ho top-tier school. Yes, it is the smartest choice from a pure cost-benefit analysis, but you may also be entering a world in which you would have a tough time ever being happy.
Trust me, I'm much like you both in temperament and current situation, and I had to do the appropriate soul-searching as well. So far, I'm pretty happy about the choice I made (which, incidentally, wouldn't work at all for you).