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Ebay Buyer Gone Crazy, Calling GF and Threatening to Fly Out
frank as fuck
__BANNED USERS regular
__BANNED USERS regular
Hello, H/A. I have a situation on my hands. This is a long, detailed read, and I'm sorry.
About a month ago, my girlfriend and I decided to sell a bike frame we had lying around on ebay. It sold for about $1300. When purchased, the buyer asked me to insure the item for more than he paid. Ignoring the alarm bells going off, I informed him that the item would be insured for the amount he paid, no more, and had already been sent out that way. Upon receipt of the item, the buyer claimed that some paint was missing from the dropout of the frame, claiming impact damage in shipping. I pointed out that the auction clearly listed paint chips on the frame, as it was old and used, and asked him to measure the rear dropouts to see if one side had, in fact, been hit. I said that if it had been damaged in shipping, I would happily file the insurance claim for him. I asked for pictures of the paint chips and sent him a picture I took of the spot before the item shipped. He never sent one, and in fact later accused me of photoshopping the pictures to make the bike look like it had more paint in that spot.
The rear dropouts (the things that hold the rear wheel) measured to exactly the same as they had when I shipped the frame, exactly the same as when the bike had been manufactured. This means that the frame did not get hit in shipping, and was just fine - the paint chips were there to begin with, as listed in the auction. This is when things get a little more interesting.
The buyer then claimed that the frame was out of alignment, and that he wanted a refund immediately. I told him that there were no refunds, as listed on the auction, and that he would not get one. Instead, I told him, if the frame was in fact out of alignment, he could take it to any decent bike shop and have it fixed in a matter of minutes, if not seconds. He claimed that the frame was a half inch out of alignment - this is the kind of thing that would not be difficult to fix, at all. I actually called bike shops in his area to see if they were the ones who looked at it. I mentioned the buyer's name to one shop, and the woman on the phone immediately said "Oh, no, let me tell you about _________. He's very suspect. I had to fire him years ago for being shady." Great.
I got a hold of the shop that looked at it. The mechanic said the frame was 2mm out of alignment at best - this is well within tolerances for a hand built bike, and even easier to fix. He said that the buyer just stormed out of the store when he told him that. He then tries to claim again that the packaging/shipping was at fault, and continuously shifts his story back and forth between the bike being built wrong, all those years ago, and therefore not as described, or being damaged in shipping.
During all of this, I became concerned that this guy would be able to somehow hold up money out of my girlfriend's bank account, due to the great number of Paypal horror stories. We decided to cancel the bank account and her Paypal account, feeling totally justified in doing so, since no refund was ever offered on the as-is item to begin with.
Fast forward a bit (a day at most) and the buyer is still demanding his money back. He files with UPS *and* Paypal at the same time, trying to get his money back from multiple agencies. I have no way of knowing how his Paypal claim progresses. I cut off communication with him, because he is starting to simply demand his money back directly from us, despite having open claims for his money elsewhere. I told him that we would not be communicating with him directly any more, but would happily deal with whatever agency he decides to use to settle the dispute, confident that his changing story and my keeping careful records of our communication will prevail. The UPS agent calls me and I tell her about everything, and his multiple claims, and she shuts the claim down. Paypal never contacts us.
About a week later, the bike shows back up at the shop that shipped it, and he claims he sent it back so he could get a refund. Having never offered one to begin with, I don't really understand why he thinks sending it back will get him one. Here's a kicker: Examining the bike, the rear dropouts no longer measure what they used to, by *his* measurements, documented in his e-mails to me. This means that one of two things, the bike was damaged in it's shipping back to the bike shop, or he bent the frame to make it look worse than it was.
I still have not communicated with him at this point. He continues to send e-mails asking where his refund is, alternating between almost begging and downright fury.
Fast forward to last night - at 1:15AM, my girlfriend gets a phone call from the buyer, who somehow got her phone number. It's from a withheld phone number, and it goes to voicemail, as we're asleep. He says that he's going to "fly out to ________ (our city) and take care of the refund." He sounds absolutely crazy, without exaggeration.
So, what do I do? If I call the police about his vaguely threatening/extortionist phone call, will a LEO just feel like I'm wasting his time with this? I don't want to communicate with the buyer any more, as I told him long ago that I would only communicate with whatever agencies he chose to settle the dispute. What do I do if he shows up at our house? What if he keeps calling? I really am kind of lost here.
TL;DR: Buyer of ebay item unhappy with it, even though it's as described, gets claims shot down by various agencies, is now threatening to show up in my city to get his money back.
About a month ago, my girlfriend and I decided to sell a bike frame we had lying around on ebay. It sold for about $1300. When purchased, the buyer asked me to insure the item for more than he paid. Ignoring the alarm bells going off, I informed him that the item would be insured for the amount he paid, no more, and had already been sent out that way. Upon receipt of the item, the buyer claimed that some paint was missing from the dropout of the frame, claiming impact damage in shipping. I pointed out that the auction clearly listed paint chips on the frame, as it was old and used, and asked him to measure the rear dropouts to see if one side had, in fact, been hit. I said that if it had been damaged in shipping, I would happily file the insurance claim for him. I asked for pictures of the paint chips and sent him a picture I took of the spot before the item shipped. He never sent one, and in fact later accused me of photoshopping the pictures to make the bike look like it had more paint in that spot.
The rear dropouts (the things that hold the rear wheel) measured to exactly the same as they had when I shipped the frame, exactly the same as when the bike had been manufactured. This means that the frame did not get hit in shipping, and was just fine - the paint chips were there to begin with, as listed in the auction. This is when things get a little more interesting.
The buyer then claimed that the frame was out of alignment, and that he wanted a refund immediately. I told him that there were no refunds, as listed on the auction, and that he would not get one. Instead, I told him, if the frame was in fact out of alignment, he could take it to any decent bike shop and have it fixed in a matter of minutes, if not seconds. He claimed that the frame was a half inch out of alignment - this is the kind of thing that would not be difficult to fix, at all. I actually called bike shops in his area to see if they were the ones who looked at it. I mentioned the buyer's name to one shop, and the woman on the phone immediately said "Oh, no, let me tell you about _________. He's very suspect. I had to fire him years ago for being shady." Great.
I got a hold of the shop that looked at it. The mechanic said the frame was 2mm out of alignment at best - this is well within tolerances for a hand built bike, and even easier to fix. He said that the buyer just stormed out of the store when he told him that. He then tries to claim again that the packaging/shipping was at fault, and continuously shifts his story back and forth between the bike being built wrong, all those years ago, and therefore not as described, or being damaged in shipping.
During all of this, I became concerned that this guy would be able to somehow hold up money out of my girlfriend's bank account, due to the great number of Paypal horror stories. We decided to cancel the bank account and her Paypal account, feeling totally justified in doing so, since no refund was ever offered on the as-is item to begin with.
Fast forward a bit (a day at most) and the buyer is still demanding his money back. He files with UPS *and* Paypal at the same time, trying to get his money back from multiple agencies. I have no way of knowing how his Paypal claim progresses. I cut off communication with him, because he is starting to simply demand his money back directly from us, despite having open claims for his money elsewhere. I told him that we would not be communicating with him directly any more, but would happily deal with whatever agency he decides to use to settle the dispute, confident that his changing story and my keeping careful records of our communication will prevail. The UPS agent calls me and I tell her about everything, and his multiple claims, and she shuts the claim down. Paypal never contacts us.
About a week later, the bike shows back up at the shop that shipped it, and he claims he sent it back so he could get a refund. Having never offered one to begin with, I don't really understand why he thinks sending it back will get him one. Here's a kicker: Examining the bike, the rear dropouts no longer measure what they used to, by *his* measurements, documented in his e-mails to me. This means that one of two things, the bike was damaged in it's shipping back to the bike shop, or he bent the frame to make it look worse than it was.
I still have not communicated with him at this point. He continues to send e-mails asking where his refund is, alternating between almost begging and downright fury.
Fast forward to last night - at 1:15AM, my girlfriend gets a phone call from the buyer, who somehow got her phone number. It's from a withheld phone number, and it goes to voicemail, as we're asleep. He says that he's going to "fly out to ________ (our city) and take care of the refund." He sounds absolutely crazy, without exaggeration.
So, what do I do? If I call the police about his vaguely threatening/extortionist phone call, will a LEO just feel like I'm wasting his time with this? I don't want to communicate with the buyer any more, as I told him long ago that I would only communicate with whatever agencies he chose to settle the dispute. What do I do if he shows up at our house? What if he keeps calling? I really am kind of lost here.
TL;DR: Buyer of ebay item unhappy with it, even though it's as described, gets claims shot down by various agencies, is now threatening to show up in my city to get his money back.
frank as fuck on
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To be honest I'm not too worried, as it would cost him more than his refund is worth to get to where you are, but he's crazy so who knows. Take it seriously, go to the police, maybe ask for a patrol car to include your road in their route.
@gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
Yeah, this is kind of my thinking too, but I want to make sure before I go and waste a cop's time on this. The police where I live aren't exactly prone to responding to non-emergency calls, so it will likely involve a significant chunk of time on my part.
Yeah, the message is still saved. I'm not going to talk to him on the phone unless it can be recorded.
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@gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
I agree. It will have to wait until I'm off work, or at least on lunch, but I will do it.
UPDATE: He just called my work. A co-worker whom I told the full story played dumb about knowing me. Great.
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Yeah, at this point, it's time to get the police involved. As in right now.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
Again pretty much exactly what I'm thinking. That's why I don't want to talk to him or communicate with him in any way that can't be recorded/printed out/used in court.
The thing that bothers me at this point is that he has so many methods available to getting his money back if his claim is legitimate, and even some available if it's not (chargebacks, talking with your bank) and yet he's still making phone calls and talking about coming here to collect. That, to me, indicates something's wrong with this guy and I need to take this more seriously.
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Also, send the documentation to eBay. If he's going to threaten sellers, they should get rid of him.
This brings another question:
What kind of lawyer could I retain for something like this? Are there lawyers who do this kind of small claims court thing that won't totally break the bank?
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I will probably do this, too, as soon as I can figure out how to get a human being on the phone at eBay.
grim and frostbitten kingdoms. goozex referral. steam.
grim and frostbitten kingdoms. goozex referral. steam.
@gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
You also have your original listing where you state no refunds, and you have the information where he wanted the bike insured for more than its value. That alone will stop any kind of company from siding with him.
You did ship it from the bike shop, correct? Ask the shop if they gave you or your girlfriends number to the guy when he called trying to get in contact with you, and see if he gave them a number to contact.
Other than that, call the cops. Also communicate with eBay asking for his address and phone number so you can give it to the police. Maybe your cops can call the cops in his area so they can tell him to knock it off.
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Shutting down the accounts associated with the Paypal transaction was a good call -- Paypal has greedy fingers, and WILL seize money without permission to be held indefinitely -- but I wouldn't bring it up in court (should things go that far), it would be really easy for him to argue that you closed the account to keep Paypal from recovering his money. Don't bring it up at ALL unless specifically asked about it (and don't lie about it if you are).
I wouldn't lawyer up unless this escalates a bit further. If Paypal or UPS start demanding money, get a lawyer. If he tries to drag you into small claims, get a lawyer. In either of those cases, he'd be liable for your legal costs when you inevitably win the ensuing lawsuit, but if you go to a lawyer before it escalates and it never ultimately DOES escalate, you're out the money for nothing (but peace of mind). Only involve the lawyer once you're sure his services will be needed.
And again, if you haven't already, CALL THE POLICE RIGHT FUCKING NOW. The non-emergency line is in the phone book, and they'll have helpful, practical advice for dealing with this mess. They'll also probably add a couple of patrols to your neighborhood if you ask, and you should never feel guilty about asking for that; it's their job to look out for you ("protect and serve"), and unless there's a crime wave on the other side of town right now, you're not pulling their patrol cars away from anything important.
Keep us updated on how this plays out.
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Most lawyers will do free consultation, they'll be able to tell you if it's the sort of thing they handle, they may even be able to refer you to somebody who does. This consultation can give you some amount of direction without retaining the lawyer's services, but generally with lawyers, talk is cheap, answers bill by the hour. I also agree, retaining a lawyer may not be necessary if you get the police involved, but I do suggest talking to one.
If it WAS damaged in shipping originally wouldn't the buyer be safe just claiming an insurance claim?
I know this guy is trying to shake you down and that it was more then likely never damaged unless he damaged it on purpose. I am just saying, wouldn't a real buyer do that as the logical and sane course of action?
Three hours and still no police showing up to take my statement. I'm willing to bet they just won't show up at all, which is pretty typical for my city.
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It seems that he did only after trying to get his money back from Frank because the product was "damaged during shipping"
The guy was trying to get it insured for more than it's worth, and just file a claim to get the money and then turn it around and sell the bike anyway
This buyer did it ass backwards in going to Frank first, then harassing Frank to the point where if UPS called him, he would say "This guy's a liar, here's what he told me"
Really, if he just filed a claim, and never went to Frank first, and said something more believable than chipped paint, Frank probably would have said "Yeah, that could have happened," because how the hell would he know?
Some shipping places have a list of things that are only insured up to $150. FedEx has a buttload of things that they aren't liable for, such as glass, engine equipment, even Emu eggs(!), and this guy probably picked one that isn't on that list but could be easily dinged up in shipping. Too bad he was stupid and doesn't realize there would be no returns.
I dealt with a damaged good with FedEx and they really only ask for a photo of the product, and what it cost and the shipping information. They didn't ask for the damaged good or anything. If I am thinking like this guy, he was never going to use the bike to begin with.
In addition to helping you in the short run, it makes it pretty clear that you've been reasonable and up-front in the long run, and in the long run, you want everyone to know that you've been the reasonable and up-front one.
Do you have to wait for the police to come to you? Is there a reason you can't take a long lunch hour and go in to the station to make a statement? I know it's not fun, but it might be worth it. Fundamentally, it sounds like you're doing everything right right now.
I'm sorry that this jackass is trying to shake you down. Living with the constant stress of threats like this would, for me, raise the real problem of my reaction if he did show up. The key at this point is to stay calm. If he keeps harassing you, you will get him. Don't let him bait you into doing something that makes an out-of-the-loop police officer think you're as bad as he is (like opening the door and punching him, as you'd most likely love to do and would in any movie be justified in doing, if he comes to your place). It sounds like this guy lives in a state of pissing people off, and he's either on a crash course with karma or, scarily, has gotten this lifestyle to work for him. Make sure that whatever happens, you don't get dragged into this jackass's life for any longer than possible.
Call again, ask them to come right away, to your house. If you're from a big city then it is possible it just never got passed along.
I'm at work for another few hours and I have things I absolutely cannot back out of tonight, otherwise I would definitely be doing this. I might have to come Tuesday when I get my first day off.
Phil, in my experience with the police here, calling them and asking them to come right away, even if something is in progress (I once had about a dozen drunk dudes yelling on my porch at the people who live in a different unit and trying to break my door down) means they'll come even slower. During that incident, I waited for seven hours and they never even showed up, after I had to scare the dudes off myself.
Tak, you're definitely right. I've been trying to cover as many bases as possible and be as reasonable as possible with every step of this, but it definitely helps to be reminded to keep on keepin' on, as it were.
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Dang. Your experience has been a bummer. Sorry the cops in your area have been that uninvolved. Most of the cops I've dealt with, wherever I've lived, have been either good-but-overworked or scary-competent. As in, the second time I came in to file a report on a car accident, they remembered me (a bearded white 30-ish guy with glasses in the middle of Canada) from the first time. Large, friendly, and competent. Guess I've been lucky.
Two other things:
1) If this guy does so much as knock on your door, you're calling 911, right? And opening with "I tried to file a report, but nobody came, and now he's here making threats!" If your local police aren't motivated by anything but ass-covering, that should make it clear that if this guy does something, after you did everything in your civic power to get them onto the scene, there are going to be questions. I'm not saying that you actually blame the police on the call, but make it clear that you tried to file a report, and the police said they'd come but never showed up.
2) Keep posting here. Above and beyond keeping the rest of us in the loop, it's good to have a place to vent about the jackass. Getting to yell to some friends in private always helps me keep on keeping on.
I've definitely dealt with good cops before, but not here. I'm sure they exist, but they don't ever show up for anything short of a shooting, it seems. The whole city is full of stories of waiting around for hours and hours at an accident scene before they show. Oh well.
1) Yeah, I'm well-versed in proper procedures for that sort of thing. I'm actually not afraid of him coming to my door as much as I am afraid of him not being so direct about it and confronting my girlfriend somewhere she doesn't feel totally safe or something. We don't live in the best neighborhood, and she does a lot of walking home at night from the gym, or work, or wherever. I'll be doing my best to drive her as much as possible for a while, looks like.
2) Most definitely. Thanks to everyone for the advice and help. I will definitely keep updating with anything else, and I certainly appreciate any more advice anyone has to give.
SMALL UPDATE: I called the bike shop that looked at the bike, and talked again to the mechanic. He is going to send me a statement about the condition the bike was in each time he saw it, so I can prove that it's become more and more damaged in his possession. Cheers to that guy!
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Wow, that is terrible about the police! hope things don't get too serious, but as it is, probably an internet/phone tough guy.
And good about the bike ship guy!
Ah I thought you were sitting at home so I was quite confused as to why you were just waiting.
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Don't even address the bike any more. You clearly stated there were no refunds on a used bike frame which he purchased through eBay. You mailed him the frame and have confirmed that he received it. End of story. Honestly, you have kind of made more problems for yourself by not just ignoring him. You've created an impression that you are willing to work with him on this, which just encourages him to screw with you more in an attempt to rip you off.
That's pretty much the position I had until he started calling and leaving vaguely threatening phone messages at 1:15AM. That kind of changed my opinion and stance a bit, and I don't plan on communicating with him directly any further than informing him as civil of a manner that I won't stand for being threatened or extorted into a refund.
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DO keep the "please don't call me a 1:00 am in the morning jerkwad."
Keep hitting home the no refund business. Even link to the completed auction to show that it says no refund.
I agree with runn1ngman. It's not about the bike anymore, it's about what he thinks he is entitled to with a refund. You never agreed to it, so he needs to let it go.
The reason the last paragraph is phrased that way is because both a chargeback and talking to his bank wouldn't result in them coming after me for the money, they would just refund it to him. I see your point, though.
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