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How to Negotiate Pay
brandotheninjamaster
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I am being interviewed this Friday for a position in the IT security field. When I initially applied for the job on CareerBuilder, the rec stated that the pay is 60-100k a year. I applied and was subsequently called for an interview. Now among the other interview questions that I am dreading I know that I am going to be asked what I expect in terms of pay. I really don't know how to answer this question. Here are some facts that may be helpful:
1. The job is about an hour away from me, so I may be able to use that as leverage (maybe?).
2. The rec, although done by a recruiting company stated 60-100k a year. Those are some pretty big numbers, and leave a lot of room for bargaining.
3. I currently make about 35k year now, so the aforementioned numbers are downright astronomical to me (and to honest a little intimidating). Also when talking to the recruiter she gave me a tid-bid of advice and told me to include my tuition benefits in my salary which would bring my total pay up to 45k.
All in all I don't want the perception of being a greedy jerk, but I don't want to shortchanged either. So guy/ladies, how do I go about doing this?
As always I appreciate any help given
.
1. The job is about an hour away from me, so I may be able to use that as leverage (maybe?).
2. The rec, although done by a recruiting company stated 60-100k a year. Those are some pretty big numbers, and leave a lot of room for bargaining.
3. I currently make about 35k year now, so the aforementioned numbers are downright astronomical to me (and to honest a little intimidating). Also when talking to the recruiter she gave me a tid-bid of advice and told me to include my tuition benefits in my salary which would bring my total pay up to 45k.
All in all I don't want the perception of being a greedy jerk, but I don't want to shortchanged either. So guy/ladies, how do I go about doing this?
As always I appreciate any help given
. brandotheninjamaster on
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"Well, a technician of similar experience and training typically makes blank to blank annually".
Never give them a specific number, only a range (usually 5k below and above what you want) and never, ever (EVER) voluntarily tell them what you make now.
Great advice and well appreciated.
The job that I am applying for is an Information Systems Security Officer (ISSO)/ Network Admin. Both of these jobs have a large amount of room as far as pay goes. I've seen ISSOs making 50k a year and others making well over 6 figures. Network Admin is not as bad as that but you still see some that advertise for 40 and others that offer 70, so I'm not really sure in what category I fall into.
if you think those figures (60-100) are astronomical, then you likely don't have the experience to ask for the higher end of that wage and that should show up on your resume and in the interview. If you ask for the high end, you will be disqualified because you don't know what you're worth. If you weren't diqualified, and you were hired at 100k, it would likely become woefully apparent to any competent manager you have that you're not worth 100k.
Would it be best to somehow get them to state the first offer? If so, then how do I go about dodging the question and getting them to make the first move without seeming like a complete asshat?
"I've done some research on my position and I would like to have your opinion, based on my experience and qualifications, what would you offer me for a starting salary?"
My advice is they usually low ball you when you ask them that by about 5-10K if they can. I usually up the ante by 15K if I ask them that and don't feel comfortable popping a number out. (Usually jobs that I'm looking for I ask them, if they came to me I let them decide if they can afford me)
2008, 2012, 2014 D&D "Rare With No Sauce" League Fantasy Football Champion!
He will. If he said "I'd like to put out, due to my commute and other ostensible factors, a salary of X" and he'll have a little more leeway. Gotta remember that commute is going to devastate your car. You'll probably have to get a new one and having a car payment on top of all this other stuff is going to kill you if you don't shoot for the moon and go from there.
That thought crossed my mind. I was thinking of asking in the 60 - 65 range, and thats just because of my current salary being 35k (45 w/ benefits). I don't want to seem that greedy, and ask an astronomical figure that would get a quick "no".
I wouldn't be surprised if that 20K pays entirely for your commute. I'd shoot towards the median of the range(80K), you may find out you're more qualified than you realized. They wouldn't have given you the interview if they didn't. (The HR department most likely low balled you too and the actual range is really 75K-120K).
1) As a general business rule, your commute is your problem, not the employer's. You should never expect to get paid more or to have a bargaining chip in your pocket because of where you live. The people who don't commute so far probably pay more in rent, etc.. As a manager who's hired a ton of infosec techs myself, I can say that I would be extremely turned off by any candidate who attempted to leverage his/her commute with me. Where you live is your choice.
2) Definitely take into account benefits (current and expected) when negotiating. This part can get messy. I turned down a job recently that was more than $20k over my current salary because the benefits made it pretty much a wash (and it would have been a longer commute, but I didn't say that to them).
3) It is normal business practice to talk about what you're making now. In cases like this where you make way less than what you think it will pay, it could benefit you to try and keep it a secret, but more than likely you're just going to piss off the hiring manager when you refuse to answer. S/he won't hire you if you piss him off. You could lie about it, too, if you don't have morals about lying for more money. Some business actually call your employer to verify, but not often.
4) If you give an employer a range, they will assume the bottom of that range. The range is pointless. In fact, many HR recruiters or hiring managers will just note that you requested $X if you say $X - $Y, and ignore the Y altogether.
How much do you want this job? It's a great launching pad for a lucrative career. If you really want this job and not just the money, then you should go in there asking for whatever the lowest amount that will make you happy, because that's all that matters. There will be plenty of chances for raises in the future. Understand that what someone said the range is means practically nothing. What matters is what you could earn somewhere else, and what amount will make you all excited and happy when you get offered it. Those are the numbers you want. If you get $60k and that's awesome for you, then what does it matter that someone once said it could have paid $100k? That's a non-entity.
Conversely, are you just after a big payout and willing to risk the job for it? Then tell them you make $80k right now and you're underpaid and worth more and you need $90k to convince you that it's time to change jobs. Your chances of getting the job will be greatly reduced, but you could find yourself well on your way to an Obama tax increase.
So my overall recommendation is this: be sort of honest about what you're making now, but add a little fudge factor and add in the benefits value. Maybe tell them you're making $50k, assuming you can do so confidently and without looking like a nervous liar. At least say $45k since you've worked that out in your head as the true compensation anyway. And then don't ask for more than 30 - 35% over that, because you're grasping at that point. If you make a good case that you're worth more than what you make now, you can generally get up to 35% more than your current, but that's about it. Any more comes off as arrogant, unrealistic, disrespectful. So I'd say ask for $65k. More than likely they have someone else who is either more qualified or willing to take less, or both. If they really like you the best and want you, they'll offeryou the minimum they had in mind or the minimum you had in mind, likely whichever is higher.
Have your number in mind, and the justification as to why you are worth it (not your commute or whatever, because the employer isn't shopping around for a nice long commute to invest in). State it plainly without being wishy-washy or self-conscious about it.
Also to answer your questions yar:
Yes, I see a high promotion potential with this job. The recruiter had sent me a more explanitive version of the job rec and it stated that the employee would be expected to be certified and enter into a managerial position. The potential is there, and not where I work now, so getting this is really important to me. With a managerial position then I could bracing myself for the Obama tax cut (well at least what the republicans are stating its going be (120k).
Edit: I just thought of this, and should have included it in my OP. The company seems pretty desperate for someone to fill this position. They currently don't have anyone, and I think they are going to have running to 2 sites (other one being in DC).
Don't undersell yourself - if you're right for the job they will hire you.
Also, aim high for the salary but with the caveat that you're more than willing to negotiate. The higher your starting number the better your pay will be - that's a basic negotiation tactic.
A thought, and one I've been considering for myself - ask about their opinion of CISSP and PMP certifications, and your pursuit thereof. This shows that you want to excel and manage in their company.
More experienced people, comment?
While factoring in the commute is something you need to consider, it's not something you use to negotiate. At most you point out that your current jobs benefits outweigh the job you are going for.
While 65k seems to be a decent number to go for, keep in mind this is a negotiation, you don't ask for the number you want to pay, ask for 70 and they will probably negotiate for something else lower. This gives you wiggle room.
Satans..... hints.....
The rec is through the recruiter, and the interview is being conducted by the company.
Also, pay is generally a second interview thing, so I wouldn't worry about it for this first interview.
Sometimes if they ask and you say, "Your job posting mentioned a minimum of X amount" then they might quote you back another amount that you can then negotiate, rather than you giving them a number that may or may not be too high.
If you really want to duck the question until they actually make you an offer, you can try going with a line like "Right now my concern is starting a career with this company. I'm sure once you choose to extend me the position, you'll have a very reasonable offer to go with it."
EDIT: What's your experience level in the field? If this is your first ITSec job, it's hard to talk them off the bottom of their pay range.
I still say 70k is a reasonable asking price given their range. You're not selling yourself short or looking overly greedy in their offered scale. If this is your first IT job, maybe 65. Either way, I would fight not to have to accept 60 unless they're being extremely firm on it.
I have about 3 years experience and have almost the excact same job title and responsibilities. I have never been in the actual IT field per se, so the whold netword admin thing would be new to me (I just got a N+ certification not too long ago so I'd say I'm mid range when it comes to that).
Alternately try the dodge line, but if I were interviewing someone, I would be more impressed if they were confident in what they wanted and what they were worth. Anything else, no matter how well worded and respectful, will in some way sound a little bit like "I don't know what the fuck I'm worth."
"I know what the fuck I'm worth but chances are you're not going to pay it, or you will settle for the next person down. So let's come to an agreement by you telling me how much you think I'm worth and we'll haggle so we both benefit."
I get a lot of job offers where they don't give a salary range at all, and then expect me to pop a number out.
So if I say pop out $150,000 and you were expecting a junior programmer level person and wanted to only pay $30,000, we might have an issue. It's the stuff like "NEED BACHELORS AND 8 YEARS EXPERIENCE SALARY $20-30K" is the stupid stuff that is all really?