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Merging counter-cultures

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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Thing with pot is that it's generally illegal, which carries a whole host of dangers and influences, and alcohol has its own dangers.

    They're also crutches for many people, which may actually just make it harder for them to learn to be social on their own - some people never learn courage when they have always gotten it from a bottle. I've seen it, and it's incredibly sad.

    Beyond that, events like PAX and various other conventions show that enthusiasts don't need chemicals to be social. They just need to be comfortable, which supportive communities are good for.

    Incenjucar on
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    AroducAroduc regular
    edited November 2008
    You're also not a better person just because you do drink/smoke up, so I wouldn't climb up on the high horse just yet.

    Aroduc on
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    JamesKeenanJamesKeenan Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Aroduc wrote: »
    You're also not a better person just because you do drink/smoke up, so I wouldn't climb up on the high horse just yet.

    I see what you did there. :^:

    But I'm still stuck on the OP. If it were just, "Should more gamers drink/smoke to better lube their social functions?" Things, would have been different. "Should gamers read High Times?"

    Besides all that, you're right. Drugs don't just make people better socially equipped.

    Why didn't we start off, "Should gamer and rich society mix?"

    Rich people can be pretty social. They hold huge balls all the time.

    JamesKeenan on
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    AroducAroduc regular
    edited November 2008
    Aroduc wrote: »
    You're also not a better person just because you do drink/smoke up, so I wouldn't climb up on the high horse just yet.

    I see what you did there. :^:

    Would you believe that it was totally unintentional? :oops:

    Aroduc on
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    JamesKeenanJamesKeenan Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Aroduc wrote: »
    Aroduc wrote: »
    You're also not a better person just because you do drink/smoke up, so I wouldn't climb up on the high horse just yet.

    I see what you did there. :^:

    Would you believe that it was totally unintentional? :oops:

    Dammit... I'll pretend I didn't see this.

    JamesKeenan on
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    DHS OdiumDHS Odium Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I don't like drugs or this idea. Fuck you for trying to get friends who don't do drugs to do them.

    Fuck all you junkies and fuck your short memory.

    DHS Odium on
    Wii U: DHS-Odium // Live: DHS Odium // PSN: DHSOdium // Steam: dhsykes // 3DS: 0318-6615-5294
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    Clint EastwoodClint Eastwood My baby's in there someplace She crawled right inRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Yes, clearly all people who use any kind of drug are junkie assholes who can't remember stuff and eat lots of food, lol.

    Clint Eastwood on
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    DHS OdiumDHS Odium Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    It's a quote I'm sure some will get, I just happen to like it.

    As for how I really think, I don't think the idea will take off any more than combining other stuff with drugs. There are people who just won't do them period, like me. And some who will.

    People combine drugs with watching movies, pool parties, and other social situations. There's also a ton of people who do those same activities entirely sober. The same thing applies here.

    DHS Odium on
    Wii U: DHS-Odium // Live: DHS Odium // PSN: DHSOdium // Steam: dhsykes // 3DS: 0318-6615-5294
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    ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    DHS Odium wrote: »
    It's a quote I'm sure some will get, I just happen to like it.

    As for how I really think, I don't think the idea will take off any more than combining other stuff with drugs. There are people who just won't do them period, like me. And some who will.

    People combine drugs with watching movies, pool parties, and other social situations. There's also a ton of people who do those same activities entirely sober. The same thing applies here.

    Plus, do we really want a bunch of people sitting around, examining their characters' hands?

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
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    Clint EastwoodClint Eastwood My baby's in there someplace She crawled right inRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Dude, they call them fingers, but I've never seen them fing!

    Oh wait, there they go

    Clint Eastwood on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Also: Drugs and gaming are not counter-cultures. At all.

    Yeah, I'm thinking the word he's searching for is "hobbies". And it's not really a new idea to get high and play videogames.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I pretty much never game sober anymore. My pot addiction fuels my game addiction. My game addiction fuels my pot addiction. But yeah, this thread is stupid.

    Azio on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    I do think that getting high and playing videogames with your buddies beats the hell out of getting high and sitting there staring at the walls with your buddies. But I mean that shouldn't be a controversial statement, as it works the same way with people who aren't high. It's also funny to hold time-trials in Gran Turismo when everybody is drunk off their ass.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Soul Calibur IV, on drugs. Probably the best form of group entertainment yet invented.

    Azio on
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    flamebroiledchickenflamebroiledchicken Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I don't really understand. I do (some) drugs, and I play video games, but I don't really associate myself with either subculture (i.e. don't really consider myself a "stoner" or a "gamer"). But I don't see any reason why someone couldn't be a part of both, except for maybe monetary concerns (both weed and vid'ya games are pretty expensive).

    flamebroiledchicken on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I don't really understand. I do (some) drugs, and I play video games, but I don't really associate myself with either subculture (i.e. don't really consider myself a "stoner" or a "gamer"). But I don't see any reason why someone couldn't be a part of both, except for maybe monetary concerns (both weed and vid'ya games are pretty expensive).
    Well, I have the second covered with Gamefly. The first will be taken care of in my garden the moment it's legal.

    Quid on
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    QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Skimmed most of the thread, but my two cents:

    • I see "cultures" as shared experiences revolving around lifestyles. Lifestyles are often defined by technology and hobbies. You can be in the periphery of a culture, and you can belong to a number of cultures.

    •*Not only do I agree that gamer culture and drug culture exist, I think they are already in the process of merging.

    • I think the primary conduit for this merging process is the Guitar Hero and Rock Band phenomenon. These products have merged gamer culture with music culture.

    • In turn, many subsets of music culture are closely connected to drug culture.

    • Ironically, the more I've played Guitar Hero and Rock Band, the less I've played other video games. I haven't played a normal videogame since like Super Mario Sunshine. On the other hand, I do spend a lot of time getting high and listening to music, introduced to me through GH and RB. On the other other hand, I'm tempted to blame my videogame dry spell on a boring videogame industry right now, rather than my interest getting absorbed by another culture.

    Qingu on
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    flamebroiledchickenflamebroiledchicken Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    By music culture you mean rock-and-roll culture, and even more specifically classic-rock culture, which is indeed very closely tied to weed and LSD.

    flamebroiledchicken on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    By music culture you mean rock-and-roll culture, and even more specifically classic-rock culture, which is indeed very closely tied to weed and LSD.
    I very, very much doubt classic rock is the only music culture that weed is prevalent in.

    Quid on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    Quid wrote: »
    By music culture you mean rock-and-roll culture, and even more specifically classic-rock culture, which is indeed very closely tied to weed and LSD.
    I very, very much doubt classic rock is the only music culture that weed is prevalent in.

    Jazz would come to mind long before rock, honestly. I also don't buy that Guitar Hero has anything at all to do with music culture given that musicians tend to hate it, and most of the songs are from top-40 lists which are more pop-culture than any other sort of culture. And that referring to "music culture" is about as meaningful as referring to "human culture".

    ViolentChemistry on
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    flamebroiledchickenflamebroiledchicken Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Quid wrote: »
    By music culture you mean rock-and-roll culture, and even more specifically classic-rock culture, which is indeed very closely tied to weed and LSD.
    I very, very much doubt classic rock is the only music culture that weed is prevalent in.

    Oh, I meant that in relation to Guitar Hero. I've only played the first two, so my knowledge is limited, but it seems to me that the series heavily favors classic rock and classic metal. Therefore, I think it would be more accurate to say that, if anything, the phenomenon marries "gamer culture" and "classic-rock culture" (which revolves around weed and masturbatory guitar solos), rather than simply "music culture" (which I think is too broad to even exist).

    flamebroiledchicken on
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    FurthurFurthur Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I'd like to thank Qingu for their addition to the conversation. I think that we had gotten away from the culture associated with drugs and rock and roll, and focused more on the drugs themselves. In fact, in rare circumstances, people will do things associated with the drug culture while sober. I know that some of my friends who play music will sometimes go on extended solos as if posessed, even when sober.

    Furthur on
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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Quid wrote: »
    By music culture you mean rock-and-roll culture, and even more specifically classic-rock culture, which is indeed very closely tied to weed and LSD.
    I very, very much doubt classic rock is the only music culture that weed is prevalent in.

    Jazz would come to mind long before rock, honestly. I also don't buy that Guitar Hero has anything at all to do with music culture given that musicians tend to hate it, and most of the songs are from top-40 lists which are more pop-culture than any other sort of culture. And that referring to "music culture" is about as meaningful as referring to "human culture".

    Musicians don't hate Guitar Hero. Unsigned, unproven, barely capable dudes who play guitar IN-REAL-LIFESIES hate it because... well, I don't know why. I've been playing bass for 20 years and I think GH/RB is one of the greatest video game creations this decade. Getting your song in GH is, apparently, a pretty big deal these days.

    And the drug culture isn't just prominent in rock n' roll. Every kind of music culture/scene except for the HxC straigtedge peeps is steeped pretty heavily in drugs, from weed to coke to heroin to ecstasy.

    And to say there isn't a drug culture is to ignore entire genres of music dedicated to being stoned while listening to it, ignoring half of Spencer's entire store when you walk in, organizations like High Times and NORML, or the fact that there are head shops in nearly every semi-major city and above in the USA.

    Putting together a model train is a hobby. Drugs have a culture, a way of life, even some "unspoken rules" of conduct and such.

    jungleroomx on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    Musicians don't hate Guitar Hero. Unsigned, unproven, barely capable dudes who play guitar IN-REAL-LIFESIES hate it because... well, I don't know why.

    Wait so you aren't a musician unless you're property of Sony BMG? Nice. The reason is because they have to learn how to play a videogame to play a song they can already play and the videogame doesn't actually work like the real instrument so the annoyance of re-learning the song is compounded.

    Edit: I found out by asking musicians who hate Guitar Hero why they hate Guitar Hero. Things get less mysterious if you try asking people simple questions.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Musicians don't hate Guitar Hero. Unsigned, unproven, barely capable dudes who play guitar IN-REAL-LIFESIES hate it because... well, I don't know why.

    Wait so you aren't a musician unless you're property of Sony BMG? Nice. The reason is because they have to learn how to play a videogame to play a song they can already play and the videogame doesn't actually work like the real instrument so the annoyance of re-learning the song is compounded.

    Taking yourself too seriously is also a bad thing.

    "I'm an arteest! I have no time for this kiddy shit! I must write the greatest concept album of all time!"

    Saying GH isn't like playing a real guitar is like saying Madden isn't like throwing a real football, COD isn't like killing people in real life, and NFS isn't like racing real cars.

    jungleroomx on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    Musicians don't hate Guitar Hero. Unsigned, unproven, barely capable dudes who play guitar IN-REAL-LIFESIES hate it because... well, I don't know why.

    Wait so you aren't a musician unless you're property of Sony BMG? Nice. The reason is because they have to learn how to play a videogame to play a song they can already play and the videogame doesn't actually work like the real instrument so the annoyance of re-learning the song is compounded.

    Taking yourself too seriously is also a bad thing.

    "I'm an arteest! I have no time for this kiddy shit! I must write the greatest concept album of all time!"

    Saying GH isn't like playing a real guitar is like saying Madden isn't like throwing a real football, COD isn't like killing people in real life, and NFS isn't like racing real cars.

    Not wanting to learn a videogame that lets you pretend to do something you can already do except with no freedom instead of infinite freedom is taking yourself too seriously? Is, is Guitar Hero your mom or something? Did I insult your mom? Is that what this is about? I mean come on, you're launching character-attacks against people who aren't even here and who you've never spoken to on the grounds that they'd rather play a guitar than play a videogame about playing a guitar.

    And I'm not even sure what that last sentence is supposed to prove. All of those claims are true, and in the case of Need for Speed that's what ruins the game.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Someones getting defensive. Let me put it this way:

    Yes, people who claim "I PLAY REAL GUITAR NOT TOY GUITARS" are kind of taking themselves too seriously. You avoid things because you don't like them, not because they are "beneath" you. Also, have you ever tried to get a random jam session with a singer, bassist, and a non-drunk drummer? Impossible. GH allows you to just jam out to songs with a pseudo full band at your fingertips.

    It's a game, and the reasons for avoiding a game should be the game isn't good, not because it's an insult to your personal tastes.

    After playing hundreds of gigs in several different states with dozens of different bands of various levels of success, I've noticed a pretty common line of asshole-like behavior. I'm sorry if I'm basing my opinion on "people I haven't met yet" because of the hundreds I have met, but it's all anecdotal. From my experience, the music scenes in general tend to produce some of the most insecure, self-absorbed, self-important tools I've come across. Apparently that's what it takes to make it?

    Please, man. How much of the music industry have you been exposed to, really? It's a ruthless, petty industry rife with backstabbers, thieves, and two-faced opportunists.

    jungleroomx on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    Someones getting defensive.

    Yes and I'm trying to figure out why you're getting so defensive. Hence my asking. Excellent work, detective.
    Let me put it this way:

    Yes, people who claim "I PLAY REAL GUITAR NOT TOY GUITARS" are kind of taking themselves too seriously. You avoid things because you don't like them, not because they are "beneath" you.

    So like because it requires the time-commitment to learning a useless skill and a lot of re-memorization and allows none of the freedom of an actual instrument and as a result of all the above is more annoying than fun? Okay...
    Also, have you ever tried to get a random jam session with a singer, bassist, and a non-drunk drummer? Impossible. GH allows you to just jam out to songs with a pseudo full band at your fingertips.

    I have not ever tried to do that, I'm not a musician. However my friends who are musicians seem to be able to do it pretty consistently. It might be because they have friends who are also musicians. I'll grant that I've never heard them play any songs from Guitar Hero, but I mean there's not much jazz in Guitar Hero. Really though to replicate the "pseudo full band at your fingertips" all you have to do is play the song on your stereo while playing your instrument. Added bonus, the song doesn't end because you got a game-over for playing around with the melody too much.
    It's a game, and the reasons for avoiding a game should be the game isn't good, not because it's an insult to your personal tastes.

    This one just doesn't make any sense. It makes perfect sense to avoid an aesthetic work because it insults your sense of taste.
    After playing hundreds of gigs in several different states with dozens of different bands of various levels of success, I've noticed a pretty common line of asshole-like behavior. I'm sorry if I'm basing my opinion on "people I haven't met yet" because of the hundreds I have met, but it's all anecdotal. From my experience, the music scenes in general tend to produce some of the most insecure, self-absorbed, self-important tools I've come across. Apparently that's what it takes to make it?

    To make what? Music, or a career on an assembly line at Sony BMG?
    Please, man. How much of the music industry have you been exposed to, really? It's a ruthless, petty industry rife with backstabbers, thieves, and two-faced opportunists.

    I have been exposed to enough of the music-industry to tell that it has very little to do with music.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    "career on an assembly line at Sony BMG"

    Yeah, I'm done with this just on that comment alone.

    It's also probably the dumbest, most insipid ideal spread around that there are musicians who are totally, like, creative n' stuff... and if they make money, then they're sellouts.

    I mean, really. Every band wants to make money off of their craft. They can make tons still sticking to their ideals (Opeth) or they can sell-out and get nowhere (numerous ones).

    The whole "OH DUDE U JUST GAVE IN TO THE MAN" is as immature an ideal as there is. People make albums and produce merchandise to sell to people to make money. They sign album contracts to make money (although they oftentimes don't and end up owing money). They want their band to be their JOB, whether they will admit it or not.

    jungleroomx on
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    KrayzieKrayzie Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I wonder if Athletes think sports games are beneath them.

    Krayzie on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    It's also probably the dumbest, most insipid ideal spread around that there are musicians who are totally, like, creative n' stuff... and if they make money, then they're sellouts.

    Indeed, but no one has voiced that opinion here except you.
    I mean, really. Every band wants to make money off of their craft. They can make tons still sticking to their ideals (Opeth) or they can sell-out and get nowhere (numerous ones).

    Okay?
    The whole "OH DUDE U JUST GAVE IN TO THE MAN" is as immature an ideal as there is. People make albums and produce merchandise to sell to people to make money. They sign album contracts to make money (although they oftentimes don't and end up owing money). They want their band to be their JOB, whether they will admit it or not.

    Man, you need to smoke either less drugs or more. You're clearly unbalanced.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    You keep bringing up the "A JERB ON THE SONY BMG ASSEMBLY LINE LOL", and then claim I'm the only one with that opinion? Really. Ever heard of cognitive dissonance?

    Spoken like a first-year college kid in every sense.

    And I'm pretty balanced. At least my worldview isn't consistent of stupid shit like "the man" or "selling out".

    jungleroomx on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    You define "musician" to explicitly exclude anyone who isn't on a major label. That indicates a failure to grasp what music is. You later on claim it's wrong to avoid a game because it offends your tastes. This indicates that the real problem is a failure to grasp the workings and purpose of aesthetic works in general.

    You also continue to make yourself angrier and angrier because someone doesn't like a videogame you like. That is not something a well-balanced person does.

    Edit: And you seem to have some sort of issue with people who go to college? Man, I've figured it out. Less. Less is how much drugs you need to smoke.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    You define "musician" to explicitly exclude anyone who isn't on a major label. That indicates a failure to grasp what music is. You later on claim it's wrong to avoid a game because it offends your tastes. This indicates that the real problem is a failure to grasp the workings and purpose of aesthetic works in general.

    You also continue to make yourself angrier and angrier because someone doesn't like a videogame you like. That is not something a well-balanced person does.

    I never defined a musician as that. You did it for me because you assumed it. Actually, you find exactly where I said "IF YOU'RE NOT ON A MAJOR LABEL YOU ARE NOT A MUSICIAN", and I'll eat the crow sans ketchup.

    It's probably more like you interpreted something poorly because it offended your personal tastes. And it's not wrong to avoid a game that offends your tastes (in this case, because it's not real guitar hurf hurf). But if it's fun, and you like the music present on GH, and you avoid it due to some internal superiority mechanism where you cannot possibly lower yourself to the level of the non-player (or possibly get shown up by someone who doesn't even play guitar or bass) despite the games quality, then it's just fucking stupid and, frankly, immature.

    I'm not even angry. I'm about 100 steps away from being angry. I also stopped doing the stupid "Hey YOU'RE ANGRY over the INTERNETS!" argument a few years ago because, much like this entire REAL MUSICIANS DON'T PLAY GH, OR ARE ON MAJOR LABELS (which you did infer that anyone on Sony BMG cannot possibly qualify as a true musician... in which case Alice in Chains, Alicia Keys, Billy Joel, and Genesis would like a word with you), it's simply bullshit.

    It's an indie-cred, anti-establishment juvenile worldview. And it's pretty, well... dumb.

    jungleroomx on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    I never defined a musician as that. You did it for me because you assumed it. Actually, you find exactly where I said "IF YOU'RE NOT ON A MAJOR LABEL YOU ARE NOT A MUSICIAN", and I'll eat the crow sans ketchup.
    Musicians don't hate Guitar Hero. Unsigned, unproven, barely capable dudes who play guitar IN-REAL-LIFESIES hate it because... well, I don't know why.
    Here you create two groups, musicians and people who hate Guitar Hero. You then go on to define the people who hate guitar hero as not pretend-musicians. Enjoy your crow. Smoke less crack.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited November 2008
    I am here to correct a slight oversight.

    Krayzie wrote: »
    I wonder if Athletes think sports games are beneath them.

    They don't.



    20031103h.gif

    Tycho wrote:
    Man, where to even start. Maybe with the comic? I don't know. Also, I'm sorry the strip went up late again. We couldn't get it uploaded at the hotel before we had to get to the airport, and I was hoping this airport would have the wireless shit but no dice. I'm sure we still beat Kurtz.

    At the other cons we've been to, even the Kansas City con, it's certainly slow sometimes but we are usually meeting a lot of people over the course of it. We were situtated right by the Dumbrella guys, and this sort of feng shui at any other convention would have produced fairly startling results. Total, over the course of three days, I saw (I'm gonna say) 58 people. That's not an exaggeration, that is actually the best estimate I can produce. Many vendors are joining together into some kind of class-action lawsuit, so shitty was the attendance.

    So, con-wise, it was a bust. We had a fun panel, saw some great fights at VGO's Soul Calibur 2 tourney and that was about it. We gave away more shirts than we sold. Then, when I thought it had surely reached some heretofore only theorized threshhold of boredom, a reader shattered the screen on my Hiptop. Every now and then I would work the buttons and gaze into the mute screen, seeking answers.

    The best night was probably Saturday, and I don't just mean the best night in Las Vegas, I mean the best night that ever happened. I can remember looking out at my friends wishing that I would just evaporate, be annhilated so that no future moment of pain or inconvenience would ever diminish it. Of course, I'm talking about Star Trek.

    So, they have this Star Trek ride in the Hilton that is pretty fun. You might go at some point, so I'm not going to say anything about it except that they're changing it soon, so you better go if you want to see it the way it is now. At any rate, after we left there they had a restaurant fashioned after Quark's Bar where a fierce Klingon was reading Star Trek trivia questions while you order things like The eternal Chicken Continuum, or the vengeful Wrap of Khan. After we sat down, the Klingon (Vo'Qha) came over to our table and introduced himself gruffly, assuring us that he was here on a diplomatic mission which relieved us.

    This is about the point that things took a turn.

    I think that every person who worked there knew who we were. Three rounds of "James Tea Kirks" hit us in rapid succession, like body blows. A large fishbowl filled with rum and dry ice, a "Warp Core Breach," further lubricated the event. Then another one of those came. After a few more rounds of trivia Vo'Qha and his cadre came back to speak with us some more, never dropping character. He said that he would come to visit us later in "Holographic Disguise," and we tried to come up with some Star Trek way to ask him if he was coming to the con or not. He came back out as Paul later and introduced Raul, Jeff, and Darren, who (along with Lisa Lotruglio, who couldn't be there) were the architects of the festive atmosphere we were experiencing. I know it's just some tourist thing, arguably the entire town is. The difference is that everyone there tried so hard to maintain the right mood - thier affection for Trek actually rekindled my own. We have photos that enunciate just how festive the event became. To say that a lap dance occurred would not be a lie. Anyway, I just wanted to thank those guys so much for making this stupid bullshit convention worth coming to.

    Some other stuff happened, we stole a bike, threw stuff at the Dumbrella guys for a while, that sort of thing. If I can come up with an interesting way to put it, I'll let you know. Now, I'm going to sleep.

    (CW)TB

    it felt good to be out of the rain

    Elki on
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