Future sicko vs. overreaction

Aoi Tsuki

Long story short, my best friend, Marie, just told me her husband, Jack, recently caught her 12-year-old nephew rubbing his 6-year-old sister's chest (fully clothed, but touching for the sake of touching). The first time, Jack thought it might've been...not what it looked like, and kept an eye out in case. Sure enough, Kid did it again.

Jack took Kid aside and said, in a word, "You're not in trouble, but let me explain why you shouldn't do that to girls," and gave him a brief rundown on boobs and appropriate touching. Kid vehemently denied touching her, and when Jack repeated that he saw him do it and wasn't going to punish him, Kid wouldn't quit denying it.

I wouldn't worry so much, except that Kid is pretty smart, and in my experience, a kid who reacts to gentle correction with angry denial is a kid who's aware of what he did and/or is pretty embarrassed to have been caught, which in this case further indicates he wasn't just "being a kid." If that seems paranoid or unreasonable to you, let me explain a little further:

Kid's mom is one of the biggest wastes of flesh in existence. She is lazy, bitchy, ignorant and (at best) inconsistent with her three children. Kid's stepdad, divorced, recently left, and good fucking riddance: the guy once felt up Marie when she was a teen, so positive role models have been almost nonexistent in this kid's life (Marie only recently stopped being a total moron and evolved into a sensible wife and mom). Especially male ones: Jack is the only decent adult man who ever spends time with him. (Kid's real dad doesn't want to be bothered.) I can say with near-absolute confidence, having known Kid from a baby and Jack for a fantastic father of two, that Kid did not learn this from Jack. Kid also has a girlfriend with whom he French-kisses, with his mom's approval (or indifference; it looks the same color to a pubescent kid).

The biggest, reddest flag I've heard is that Kid and his friend were recently caught in a room alone with the 6-year-old sister naked. Their mom's explanation? "Oh, she's always taking her clothes off."

The little sister is also autistic.

Am I being paranoid about these kids' future, considering their mom is a textbook case of inept parenting, and Marie and Jack have already tried in vain to explain to her how crucial it is to nip Kid's behavior in the bud? It's not My Problem to go charging in a-fixin', but I'm godmother to Marie's second kid and see the family often; this is a highly sensitive topic, so I'm just wondering how the hell to proceed (including, y'know, not proceeding if nothing is wrong).

The Black Hunter

I really think this is far above anyone here

Aoi Tsuki

The Black Hunter wrote: »

I really think this is far above anyone here

We'll see. (Not looking for a psychic/full psychological profile and perfect answer, just an opinion on whether this is a potentially Bad Case or maybe not.)

Canada_jezus

I can only say that if i heard what you heard i would be freaking out, i can't really offer advice except, well maybe consider asking social services or something? Honestly though I'm out of my depth. edit: to say, no you're not being paranoid i think, not at all.

kaz67

Given the sister's age and condition there is definitely cause for concern I think. Don't think you are overreacting at all.

Natsus

It can be just a phase and maybe grow up to be normal however they need to be told that their behavior is wrong. What worries me is the mom. I know kids can be curious sometimes and take it too far, but without disciplining them, the problem escalates.

I don't really have advice to give unfortunately cause I don't know the whole situation, but perhaps Marie and Jack can be more involved in their niece and nephew's life? If not, then there's not much else to do besides telling the mom of the situation and hope for the best.

Improvolone

I think I remember being 12 well enough to know what sexual things are and that they are good.
I think you've every reason to be concerned, if not for Boys later life but Girls current life.

VisionOfClarity

Canada_jezus wrote: »

consider asking social services or something?

This. It could be something, it could be nothing, only a trained professional is likely to know. If mom doesn't want to take him anywhere you should report it to social services.

Richard_Dastardly

Reporting to social services might ruin your relationship with the mother, who might then keep you away from the children. From what you describe, she isn't technically doing anything illegal, or anything that would warrant intervention from a social worker. Even if a social worker were to investigate, and even if the mother were doing something that could give the state cause to intervene, without evidence all she would have to do is deny, deny, deny.

All you can really do is A) go on with your life, help Jack steer these kids in the right direction, with or without the mother's help, or C) talk to the mother, perhaps with other concerned family members, and try to get her and her children into counseling.

ceres

Definitely above.. most of us.

My advice would be to call a helpline (Google being your friend and all) if you're worried about getting social services involved from the get-go. They are confidential, and might be able to help you get an idea of an appropriate course of action to take in this situation. Since you aren't required to give them any information, there's no need to get anyone else involved until you're ready to do so.

I don't know about his future, but her present isn't looking so great. I think that, if nothing else, it is worth speaking to a professional about this and you should absolutely do so.

VisionOfClarity

Richard_Dastardly wrote: »

Reporting to social services might ruin your relationship with the mother, who might then keep you away from the children. From what you describe, she isn't technically doing anything illegal, or anything that would warrant intervention from a social worker. Even if a social worker were to investigate, and even if the mother were doing something that could give the state cause to intervene, without evidence all she would have to do is deny, deny, deny.

All you can really do is A) go on with your life, help Jack steer these kids in the right direction, with or without the mother's help, or C) talk to the mother, perhaps with other concerned family members, and try to get her and her children into counseling.

There's evidence the son is sexually abusing his sister, that's more than enough cause to investigate and intervene. To not report and just hope he grows out of it would be reckless.

Descendant X

In my line of work I cannot begin to tell you how many files I've read where the offender I'm working with was sexually abused as a child by an other, but still pre-pubescent or teenage, relative. This needs to stop immediately. The most concerning aspect of this is that the alleged victim is autistic and may not be able to verbalize what has been happening to her (it wasn't made clear in the OP.)

I would say talk to Jack and Marie about your concerns and come up with a unified plan of action. If all three of you jump on this at once it is more likely that something can and will be done about it. This 12 year-old could be in for a world of victimizing and perpetuated abuse if something is not done ASAP.

Richard_Dastardly

VisionOfClarity wrote: »

Richard_Dastardly wrote: »

Reporting to social services might ruin your relationship with the mother, who might then keep you away from the children. From what you describe, she isn't technically doing anything illegal, or anything that would warrant intervention from a social worker. Even if a social worker were to investigate, and even if the mother were doing something that could give the state cause to intervene, without evidence all she would have to do is deny, deny, deny.

All you can really do is A) go on with your life, help Jack steer these kids in the right direction, with or without the mother's help, or C) talk to the mother, perhaps with other concerned family members, and try to get her and her children into counseling.

There's evidence the son is sexually abusing his sister, that's more than enough cause to investigate and intervene. To not report and just hope he grows out of it would be reckless.

He's a 12 year old kid caught rubbing his sister's breasts once. Without evidence that this has happened before or repeatedly, all social services would do is go to the house, ask the mother and the child if there's a problem. They'll both say no, social worker leaves and OP can bet on kissing his relationship with the kids goodbye.

Edit: reread the post. Happened more than once... perhaps call some helpline anonymously, but I doubt that social services would/could do anything.

Talking with the mother and trying to get her and her children into counseling, and also trying to be a good role model for the boy, are probably the only things you can do to help. Bringing the state in will probably only make things worse, unless the mother herself is abusing the kids.

VThornheart

Apparently it did happen repeatedly though.

I think the least that can be done is to encourage them to get him to a psychologist/counselor/etc, or something.

EDIT: No, on second thought, social services might indeed be the best thing. This sounds like it's leading (or has ALREADY led to) something very, very bad. And that mom isn't going to do jack crap about it... it sounds like her indifference is probably allowing it to fester.

But indeed, definitely, it is over my head at least. I don't know what to say other than that it seems wrong NOT to tell someone about this situation, as hard as that is.

Sarcastro

Shit son, that is some bad news. I have no idea how to fix that up.

Theres a good shot the behavior is going to be repetitive, and sadly, it will will probably just move out of eyesight rather than go away. You could try educating the six year old girl, depending on the level of autism, you may be able to elicit some kind of negative response, like telling or screaming, etc, but things can rapidly devolve especially with any kind of childhood confusion over what will happen if she tells (ie brother threats), or whether or not she gets some enjoyment out of the attention (doesn't want to tell).

It's a huge clusterfuck. More than say, just jumping the gun and getting child services involved immediately, the idea behind you, or more likely, Jack, going to a professional counsellour to get some tried and true strategies for dealing these up is a good one. Even dragging in the boy to a child counsellour is something he wont soon forget.

If the issue doesn't stop, firstly, Mom's denial needs to be broken (again, Jack seeing someone can help him do this properly), because both parents need to set up a united front on dealing with the misbehaivior. Secondly, they'll need apropriate strategies on dealing with the issue at home, and thirdly, if little dude does not pull his shit together, there needs to be stern and appropriate punishments and rehabilitiation. Family or not, he is commiting a sex crime, and he's about one year out from being held criminally accountable, depending on location.

Most services revolve around sorting these things out in-house, so theres not a lot of worry there, but the issue turns serious enough that if Mom doesn't get her act together, and by inaction allows the issue to continue, than she's not a suitable guardian, and her rights in being such should be revoked. In being the one aware of whats going on, part of Jacks role will be in helping her wake up and see what is going on. He may need some help in making this happen.

The advice, and I'm sorry it isn't much, I mean if anybody needs some solid adivce right now its these guys, is to progress by degrees. First, a helpline to cover the basics is great. If you need more, get Jack in to see a pro, if he needs more, then let them take it from there. Hopefully they'll wind up with a decent solution, and theres a good chance of it if they use the right tools for the job.

ElJeffe

My nephew was engaged in some similar behavior at near the same age. He had all manner of problems stemming from a really shitty home life with his mother prior to moving in with my wife's brother (his biological father). He went to therapy to address all these issues, and now is doing just fine.

Which is to say, don't worry that your friend's nephew is irrevocably destined to be some creepy pervert. If the issue is properly addressed, I think it's likely he'll be fine. But yeah, it should definitely be addressed somehow, and if the parents can't or won't deal with it, kid needs professional help, stat. Because overreacting slightly is better than the kid growing up to be Creepy McPedophile.

HalberdBlue

I wouldn't worry so much, except that Kid is pretty smart, and in my experience, a kid who reacts to gentle correction with angry denial is a kid who's aware of what he did and/or is pretty embarrassed to have been caught, which in this case further indicates he wasn't just "being a kid."

It depends on the kid. I never lied growing up, and my parents knew this so they know when I denied something that I was telling the truth. However, when another adult would accuse me of doing something I didn't do, I would get very angry and vehemently deny it, which of course only convinces them further that I did it, which would infuriate me even more.

Medopine

Whatever you do, take some sort of action here. Do not let this sit and hope it goes away. It won't.

Topweasel

ElJeffe wrote: »

My nephew was engaged in some similar behavior at near the same age. He had all manner of problems stemming from a really shitty home life with his mother prior to moving in with my wife's brother (his biological father). He went to therapy to address all these issues, and now is doing just fine.

Which is to say, don't worry that your friend's nephew is irrevocably destined to be some creepy pervert. If the issue is properly addressed, I think it's likely he'll be fine. But yeah, it should definitely be addressed somehow, and if the parents can't or won't deal with it, kid needs professional help, stat. Because overreacting slightly is better than the kid growing up to be Creepy McPedophile.

Disagree. There is no perfect way to raise a kid an any action you do can have huge ramifications on how that kid turns out. It might seem to you that way but what if he is already disturbed and trying to get him to get him to stop now without full understanding of why he does this might lead him to either a.) suicide b.) murder. Not saying its going to happen.

This why I recommend talking to a pro. Not taking the kid to a pro, but going and getting their suggestion.

Casual

Wow. This is terrifying. Seriously I would be worried that something even more serious has happened without you knowing about it. Even if it isnt already too late you need to nip this in the bud NOW, 12 really isnt that young these days (or at least not as young as it used to be) but the kid certainly isnt beyond the point of no return. You're right that this kid needs a positive male role model, and without one there's no telling how bad he could get. So in short you are most defiantly not overreacting.

Willeth

I have a nephew and niece that are 12/13 and based around what they know I can guarantee that this kid wasn't doing this innocently. I think you're right in your assumption about his denial being suspicious.

I'd say this kid is definitely taking advantage of his sister given the information you've given here.

As long as the mother understands that you're not casting aspersions on her skills as a mother and that you're simply concerned for the welfare of the daughter, talking to her shouldn't be too awkward. It'll definitely be awkward any way you do it, but I do think you need to raise any concerns you have.

Inquisitor77

This is very obviously something few of us feel comfortable providing advice on, given the nature of the situation, the lack of full context/knowledge, and its ramifications. What I do feel comfortable telling you is that while social services will probably not do anything substantive if you report it, what it does do is put something on the record. Similar to writing up a police report, having an official record of something in and of itself can have value, particularly down the road. If, later on, something horrendous should happen (hopefully not), it is easier to get something done with proper records than it would be otherwise.

I'm definitely not telling you to call social services, the police, etc. immediately. What I am saying is that this should be one of your considerations. Obviously, there are immediate ramifications for doing something like this, particularly with regards to your relationship to the family.

I can second the notion that at 12, I was well aware at least of what felt good and what didn't, with regards to my own sexuality. But I was also very curious at that age, of which this may simply be a manifestation.

What brings up some flags in my mind is that you are allowing a situation which, under other circumstances, could be perceived as harmless curiosity. This tells me that there are other things (some of which you have described) which pushes this over the line into serious concern. It may well be that their situation is already so poor that you are looking at anything and everything which could conceivably turn it into a real, for lack of a better term, "shitfest".

Willeth

I should probably clarify that I think while the kid is aware what he is doing and aware on some level that it is wrong, he may not fully understand everything, hence the hasty denial.

If I'm reading you right you say that his absent step-dad has displayed similar behaviour in the past, and he's being raised in a home without any male role models - only his mother, who is distant.

I would definitely be concerned at a minimum.

Aoi Tsuki

*nodnod* My biggest fear is just the clusterfuck of factors preventing a sensible, quick resolution to this shit, or as close to a quick resolution as you can get in a situation this bad. The mom has not listened before, and if we press the issue, she'll get angry at our "presumption." (We've already tried to suggest it is not healthy to laugh her ass off when the little girl sashays around the house, bragging about how "sexy" she is. The mom told us it was just funny, and then to mind our own goddamn business.)

Hell, Social Services already visited her once a few years back, unless my imagination and memory are joining forces against me--Kid had some unexplained bruises. The more I remember, the more frightened for these kids I get. This is like a perfect storm of Abuser Creation for Dummies. My big worry is that if we talk to Kid, he'll figure out that his sister won't tell on him and continue to do it where and when no one can see.

Dammit. I'll talk to Jack and Marie about who to call and when, unless they see some indication that everything is perfectly magically normal and happy. Maybe they can force some counseling at the very fucking least.

Willeth

The important thing for you is not to worry too much. I am sure Marie and Jack are feeling something similar and it would probably help to talk to them.