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Hemp - Destroyer of lumber, fuckerupper of cotton?

jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered User regular
edited November 2008 in Debate and/or Discourse
So, with the weed legalization thread going it seems like a natural offshoot to bring this up before it gets brought up over there.

Cotton and wood-for-paper industries are huge in the USA. They're also pretty environmentally detrimental, and in this time of easier industries that we need to stay here and green solutions, it almost seems like a "no duh" situation to bring industrial hemp out for both paper and cloth needs.

While I'm advocating the eradication of the current paper industry, I do feel that a cotton industry still may have some validity, although it's quite overblown at this stage of the game. I think the US could benefit from a huge shift in new industries, especially since hemp is radically cheaper, much easier to grow, and, really, the products are simply better.

Thoughts on this?

jungleroomx on
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Posts

  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    You'd have to show me that the byproducts of hemp as a polymer are non-detrimental, first. Just because it totally makes you see forever doesn't mean it's a truly viable material on a large, repreducible scale.

    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud on
  • Premier kakosPremier kakos Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2008
    Oh shit. You mentioned lumber. RUN!! THE RICHY MONSTER IS COMING!

    Premier kakos on
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    You'd have to show me that the byproducts of hemp as a polymer are non-detrimental, first. Just because it totally makes you see forever doesn't mean it's a truly viable material on a large, repreducible scale.

    Hemp starch plastics are an alternative to our current plastics yes, and they are apparently cleaner to produce.

    jungleroomx on
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited November 2008
    Why is hemp better than cotton for clothes?

    Elki on
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  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    It's not.

    Xenogears of Bore on
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  • StarZapperStarZapper Vermont, Bizzaro world.Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Um, yes it is, much better. Cotton is a huge resource hog (especially water) and it's very labor extensive to harvest. Hemp on the other hand is downright easy to grow and harvest comparatively and gives you a much better harvest. And yes, Hemp paper makes a shit ton more sense than wood pulp. Honestly Hemp is an amazing plant, and it's a tragedy that this country doesn't have a Hemp industry as it makes so much more sense then many of the materials we're currently using. There really isn't a single good reason for it to be outlawed as it currently is.

    StarZapper on
  • CindersCinders Whose sails were black when it was windy Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Isn't hemp itchy as hell?

    Cinders on
  • TL DRTL DR Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Cinders wrote: »
    Isn't hemp itchy as hell?

    It gets much softer when you wash it. I've made hemp necklaces before, and they're nearly unbearable until you take a shower with it on and it relaxes. The fibers contract somewhat when wet, then when they dry they are more willing to be in the shape they were in during this process.

    TL DR on
  • CindersCinders Whose sails were black when it was windy Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Cinders wrote: »
    Isn't hemp itchy as hell?

    It gets much softer when you wash it. I've made hemp necklaces before, and they're nearly unbearable until you take a shower with it on and it relaxes. The fibers contract somewhat when wet, then when they dry they are more willing to be in the shape they were in during this process.

    Is it permanently softer, or is it just softer while wet? Plus, how durable compared to cotton is it?

    Cinders on
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Elki wrote: »
    Why is hemp better than cotton for clothes?
    Well, I know cotton sucks nutrients out of the dirt like no man's business. Don't know the effects of hemp.

    Edit: @Cinders: My stuff always stayed soft.

    Quid on
  • StarZapperStarZapper Vermont, Bizzaro world.Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Eh, regular untreated Hemp is itchy as hell, but they have treatments for it that can make it as soft as any cotton. I have a Hemp shirt that is extremely comfy that I'm quite fond of. As far as durability, Hemp is alot more durable that cotton, hell the original Levi's were made from Hemp.

    StarZapper on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    How does Hemp Itch compare to Wool Itch?

    Incenjucar on
  • CervetusCervetus Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I figure if hemp was good enough for our founding fathers then dammit it's good enough for any red-blooded American!

    Cervetus on
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    How does Hemp Itch compare to Wool Itch?
    Initially, way fucking worse. Over time, much better.

    I'd assume that if it were to see wide spread use, hemp clothes would most likely be washed a few times before being sold.

    Quid on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Might also be used to stuff more comfortable clothing types.

    Incenjucar on
  • TL DRTL DR Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    As I said, my experience is in jewelry made of hemp twine. Initially very coarse, after one washing tolerable, and after another washing not coarse or itchy at all.

    TL DR on
  • StarZapperStarZapper Vermont, Bizzaro world.Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Yeah with actual hemp clothing itchiness really is a complete non issue, as they go to lengths to get rid of that to begin with. Hemp twine obviously is going to be itchy as hell at first, but as pointed out washing permanently softens it a good deal.

    StarZapper on
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Two things:

    1) This thread is woefully lacking in specifics. That we can make a shampoo bottle out of hemp is completely different depending on how much that increases the price. So far nothing in this thread has indicated any of these are economical processes.

    2) Plastics: Polylactide acid (PLA) bioplastics were just starting to switch over to viable aside from recycling issues but that was before the price of oil cratered. A quick google didn't indicate anything on what "hemp plastic" was exactly but it's got a tough battle to compete with PLA which is usable in the current equipment without significant retooling in process or machinery. Sadly corn (and sugar cane) might once again be the leaders in "green" technology.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
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  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    Two things:

    1) This thread is woefully lacking in specifics. That we can make a shampoo bottle out of hemp is completely different depending on how much that increases the price. So far nothing in this thread has indicated any of these are economical processes.

    2) Plastics: Polylactide acid (PLA) bioplastics were just starting to switch over to viable aside from recycling issues but that was before the price of oil cratered. A quick google didn't indicate anything on what "hemp plastic" was exactly but it's got a tough battle to compete with PLA which is usable in the current equipment without significant retooling in process or machinery. Sadly corn (and sugar cane) might once again be the leaders in "green" technology.

    Is corn as bad for plastic as it is for energy?

    In other news, at least one person is proposing that we try to bring back a plant that turns greenhouse gasses into petroleum.

    Scalfin on
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  • TL DRTL DR Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    It would be interesting to see what kind of estimates people have come up with regarding the price of hemp substitutes in various products if hemp were to be utilized on a massive scale.

    TL DR on
  • OrganichuOrganichu poops peesRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited November 2008
    The problem is that typically the only people I see advocating hemp are pot smoking libertarians. Ergo I never really get any info on it I can trust.

    Is there an unbiased source that doesn't slobber on hemp's dong?

    Organichu on
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Is corn as bad for plastic as it is for energy?

    In other news, at least one person is proposing that we try to bring back a plant that turns greenhouse gasses into petroleum.
    Not quite but sugar is still a better source material. Not that it matters in our fucked up country.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
  • TL DRTL DR Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Two things:

    1) This thread is woefully lacking in specifics. That we can make a shampoo bottle out of hemp is completely different depending on how much that increases the price. So far nothing in this thread has indicated any of these are economical processes.

    2) Plastics: Polylactide acid (PLA) bioplastics were just starting to switch over to viable aside from recycling issues but that was before the price of oil cratered. A quick google didn't indicate anything on what "hemp plastic" was exactly but it's got a tough battle to compete with PLA which is usable in the current equipment without significant retooling in process or machinery. Sadly corn (and sugar cane) might once again be the leaders in "green" technology.

    Is corn as bad for plastic as it is for energy?

    In other news, at least one person is proposing that we try to bring back a plant that turns greenhouse gasses into petroleum.

    Any idea what that plant is?

    TL DR on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Cervetus wrote: »
    I figure if hemp was good enough for our founding fathers then dammit it's good enough for any red-blooded American!
    Down this path lies powdered wigs and slavery.

    OptimusZed on
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  • TL DRTL DR Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Organichu wrote: »
    The problem is that typically the only people I see advocating hemp are pot smoking libertarians. Ergo I never really get any info on it I can trust.

    Is there an unbiased source that doesn't slobber on hemp's dong?

    I did a bit of light Googling. The Wikipedia page is laughably full of [citation needed]'s, and the first site I came to with the data you're looking for was some hemp producers' association, which I would assume has the same bias as any producers' association. I did, however, come across a fascinating quote.
    NAIHC.org wrote:
    If hemp does pollinate any nearby marijuana, genetically, the result will always be lower-THC marijuana, not higher-THC hemp. If hemp is grown outdoors, marijuana will not be grown close by to avoid producing lower-grade marijuana.

    Regardless of the genetics involved, this is an accurate description. Growers of potent marijuana always kill the male plants, both because they are not good to smoke and because if left unpollinated the females will not produce seeds, which makes for a more high-end product.

    TL DR on
  • randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    If hemp is so much better why doesn't the paper/cotton/logging industry just grow hemp instead of other stuff?

    randombattle on
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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    If hemp is so much better why doesn't the paper/cotton/logging industry just grow hemp instead of other stuff?
    Government subsidies!

    Well, that's likely half true actually.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
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  • TL DRTL DR Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    If hemp is so much better why doesn't the paper/cotton/logging industry just grow hemp instead of other stuff?
    NAIHC.org wrote:
    LEGAL FACTS

    *The US Drug Enforcement Agency classifies all C. sativa varieties as "marijuana." While it is theoretically possible to get permission from the government to grow hemp, DEA would require that the field be secured by fence, razor wire, dogs, guards, and lights, making it cost-prohibitive.

    *The US State Department must certify each year that a foreign nation is cooperating in the war on drugs. The European Union subsidizes its farmers to grow industrial hemp. Those nations are not on this list, because the State Department can tell the difference between hemp and marijuana.

    *Hemp was grown commercially (with increasing governmental interference) in the United States until the 1950s. It was doomed by the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937, which placed an extremely high tax on marijuana and made it effectively impossible to grow industrial hemp. While Congress expressly expected the continued production of industrial hemp, the Federal Bureau of Narcotics lumped industrial hemp with marijuana, as it's successor the US Drug Enforcement Administration, does to this day.

    *Over 30 industrialized democracies do distinguish hemp from marijuana. International treaties regarding marijuana make an exception for industrial hemp.

    *Canada now again allows the growing of hemp.

    TL DR on
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    The DEA is stupid

    nexuscrawler on
  • randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    If hemp is so much better why doesn't the paper/cotton/logging industry just grow hemp instead of other stuff?
    NAIHC.org wrote:
    LEGAL FACTS

    *The US Drug Enforcement Agency classifies all C. sativa varieties as "marijuana." While it is theoretically possible to get permission from the government to grow hemp, DEA would require that the field be secured by fence, razor wire, dogs, guards, and lights, making it cost-prohibitive.

    *The US State Department must certify each year that a foreign nation is cooperating in the war on drugs. The European Union subsidizes its farmers to grow industrial hemp. Those nations are not on this list, because the State Department can tell the difference between hemp and marijuana.

    *Hemp was grown commercially (with increasing governmental interference) in the United States until the 1950s. It was doomed by the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937, which placed an extremely high tax on marijuana and made it effectively impossible to grow industrial hemp. While Congress expressly expected the continued production of industrial hemp, the Federal Bureau of Narcotics lumped industrial hemp with marijuana, as it's successor the US Drug Enforcement Administration, does to this day.

    *Over 30 industrialized democracies do distinguish hemp from marijuana. International treaties regarding marijuana make an exception for industrial hemp.

    *Canada now again allows the growing of hemp.
    I mean if hemp is illegal because the big industries don't want it infringing on their business then why don't the same big industries just leverage the government to make it legal and then monopolize it like they do with logging and stuff.

    randombattle on
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    I never asked for this!
  • CervetusCervetus Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Because change is expensive?

    Cervetus on
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Cervetus wrote: »
    Because change is expensive?
    Don't forget scary.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
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  • JokermanJokerman Everything EverywhereRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    According to the FDA, you can make three times as much gasahol or methanol from a hemp seed then you can from a corn stalk.

    Jokerman on
  • TL DRTL DR Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    If hemp is so much better why doesn't the paper/cotton/logging industry just grow hemp instead of other stuff?
    NAIHC.org wrote:
    LEGAL FACTS

    *The US Drug Enforcement Agency classifies all C. sativa varieties as "marijuana." While it is theoretically possible to get permission from the government to grow hemp, DEA would require that the field be secured by fence, razor wire, dogs, guards, and lights, making it cost-prohibitive.

    *The US State Department must certify each year that a foreign nation is cooperating in the war on drugs. The European Union subsidizes its farmers to grow industrial hemp. Those nations are not on this list, because the State Department can tell the difference between hemp and marijuana.

    *Hemp was grown commercially (with increasing governmental interference) in the United States until the 1950s. It was doomed by the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937, which placed an extremely high tax on marijuana and made it effectively impossible to grow industrial hemp. While Congress expressly expected the continued production of industrial hemp, the Federal Bureau of Narcotics lumped industrial hemp with marijuana, as it's successor the US Drug Enforcement Administration, does to this day.

    *Over 30 industrialized democracies do distinguish hemp from marijuana. International treaties regarding marijuana make an exception for industrial hemp.

    *Canada now again allows the growing of hemp.
    I mean if hemp is illegal because the big industries don't want it infringing on their business then why don't the same big industries just leverage the government to make it legal and then monopolize it like they do with logging and stuff.

    Iirc, the original lobby against hemp was by Dupont, a synthetic fiber company. So there you go. Petrol- and corn-based industries have more money than God, and certainly more money then the world's hemp farmers. That, coupled with the common association of hemp with pot...

    TL DR on
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    If hemp is so much better why doesn't the paper/cotton/logging industry just grow hemp instead of other stuff?
    NAIHC.org wrote:
    LEGAL FACTS

    *The US Drug Enforcement Agency classifies all C. sativa varieties as "marijuana." While it is theoretically possible to get permission from the government to grow hemp, DEA would require that the field be secured by fence, razor wire, dogs, guards, and lights, making it cost-prohibitive.

    *The US State Department must certify each year that a foreign nation is cooperating in the war on drugs. The European Union subsidizes its farmers to grow industrial hemp. Those nations are not on this list, because the State Department can tell the difference between hemp and marijuana.

    *Hemp was grown commercially (with increasing governmental interference) in the United States until the 1950s. It was doomed by the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937, which placed an extremely high tax on marijuana and made it effectively impossible to grow industrial hemp. While Congress expressly expected the continued production of industrial hemp, the Federal Bureau of Narcotics lumped industrial hemp with marijuana, as it's successor the US Drug Enforcement Administration, does to this day.

    *Over 30 industrialized democracies do distinguish hemp from marijuana. International treaties regarding marijuana make an exception for industrial hemp.

    *Canada now again allows the growing of hemp.
    I mean if hemp is illegal because the big industries don't want it infringing on their business then why don't the same big industries just leverage the government to make it legal and then monopolize it like they do with logging and stuff.

    Iirc, the original lobby against hemp was by Dupont, a synthetic fiber company. So there you go. Petrol- and corn-based industries have more money than God, and certainly more money then the world's hemp farmers. That, coupled with the common association of hemp with pot...

    I'll hemp your pot.

    Scalfin on
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  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    The DEA is stupid

    Sheep on
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    It's also, I imagine, far easier to have a monopoly on corn-based or petroleum-based products than hemp-based ones. You tend to not see very many home-growers of purified petroleum products.

    durandal4532 on
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  • TL DRTL DR Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    It's also, I imagine, far easier to have a monopoly on corn-based or petroleum-based products than hemp-based ones. You tend to not see very many home-growers of purified petroleum products.

    This is true to a large degree, though hemp cultivation and processing is still something best done at scale, and I can't imagine how it would be done in a home. This isn't a pot plant that can be two feet tall and needs only produce an ounce or two of buds. Not to mention turning the hemp plants into usable fiber or what have you.

    TL DR on
  • AresProphetAresProphet Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Sheep wrote: »
    The DEA is stupid

    You expect an agency that gets billions of dollars out of the federal budget every year for the express purpose of keeping illegal substances illegal to close up shop?

    AresProphet on
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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited November 2008
    DEA stupidity aside, how is hemp production/use in countries where it's legal to grow?

    Elki on
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