No, you actually said that karate punches were stiff and karate training is impractical. The straw man fallacy only applies if I make something stupid up and then argue against it instead of against what you actually said. It doesn't count if you are the one who says it.
No, see, douche-fag, I said karate punches are stiff and IMPLIED you'd be better served focusing on punching somewhere else. I would say that the very fact I FOCUSED ON PUNCHING implies there's other things of value in karate.
I would consider this a rejection of the system because the straight punch and the front kick are pretty much the two staple moves of traditional karate. Without the straight punch, the system is gravely weakened.
And yes, some karate training is impractical or archaic. That doesn't mean it's 100% useless or that I'm descarding every karateka from Oyama on out. That assertation, which you did make on my behalf, is the straw man. Also, as you yourself pointed out, karate isn't a blanket - there are a lot of places that train different. Kyokushin karate is really only related to, say, Isshinryu in that they use a similar uniform.
OK, I named Oyama for you. You blanketed with "top fighters don't train in karate" and even said (more or less) that Joe Lewis isn't really a karate fighter. So it's not really like I totally put words in your mouth there, I just added a small number of names including Oyama.
Defender on
0
Options
JohnnyCacheStarting DefensePlace at the tableRegistered Userregular
No, you actually said that karate punches were stiff and karate training is impractical. The straw man fallacy only applies if I make something stupid up and then argue against it instead of against what you actually said. It doesn't count if you are the one who says it.
No, see, douche-fag, I said karate punches are stiff and IMPLIED you'd be better served focusing on punching somewhere else. I would say that the very fact I FOCUSED ON PUNCHING implies there's other things of value in karate.
I would consider this a rejection of the system because the straight punch and the front kick are pretty much the two staple moves of traditional karate. Without the straight punch, the system is gravely weakened.
And yes, some karate training is impractical or archaic. That doesn't mean it's 100% useless or that I'm descarding every karateka from Oyama on out. That assertation, which you did make on my behalf, is the straw man. Also, as you yourself pointed out, karate isn't a blanket - there are a lot of places that train different. Kyokushin karate is really only related to, say, Isshinryu in that they use a similar uniform.
OK, I named Oyama for you. You blanketed with "top fighters don't train in karate" and even said (more or less) that Joe Lewis isn't really a karate fighter. So it's not really like I totally put words in your mouth there, I just added a small number of names including Oyama.
No, I said virtually ever top level fighter cross trains. It was true in Lewis' time and it's doubly or triply true now. The exact, particularly offensive, phrase you put in my mouth was to imply I was calling Fumio Demura "a bitch"
Call, I really, really like you. I think you're one of the neatest persons I know, and I hope you win any fight you get in, because I know it won't be you starting it and you'll generally be the situational underdog by default.
but
While you're correct about physics and physiology being how you knock someone out. You're incorrect to imply that wing chun has some sort of definitive lock on proper mechanics, or even that the mechanics of Wing Chun are particularly "scientific" or correct themeselves. There are LEGIONS of western boxers in south america - I'm talking ameutuers in their teens, not just shining examples like Manny Paquiao - who are your size and can generate a knockout with "straight" (i'm taking that to mean 'western' since there if there's a martial art with a doctrine of sticking to literally straight punches, it's the centerline based wing chun and not something else)
I actually have very strong feelings about wing chun - I think it's one of the few fighting systems that is actually, for most people, generally and broadly inferior. I will generally roll my eyes at WC. Just as I roll my eyes at Olympic TKD. (Said Eyeroool, btw, doesn't imply that they produce all bad fighters or no good fighters or can't fight in general...it essentially implies I think the same person could get there faster in a different system)
I didn't do that in your case because my thinking was, well, you're a really smart, lined out person, and if you're happy with a school, it's probably a good individual school, maybe that proverbial exception that proves the rule.
Wing Chun adhearents have been taught that it is scientifically superior for the last few decades - where is that science? Can you show me in a study how wing chun produces superior force? Barring that, can you show me the next best thing - a long record of real, well documented wing chun fighters consistently winning legitimate cross style matches?
Wing chun is not "scientific" because the instructor says so.
PS come on knob ain't even all that big. 190. Tops. Before he showers the sticky stuff off. Sticky stuff adds 5 pounds. Sometimes 7.
Oh, I ain't sayin' that WC is the only system to apply physics and physiology to a fight, nor that it is doing it in the end-all, be-all manner. Just that it is present in the system, and definitely enhances it to a great degree (I feel; especially from what I have seen given my own abilities versus my own size).
I'm not really sure why you're rolling your eyes at WC, is the thing. Still, I do go to an exceptional school. I know that much (and am thankful for it every time I go to class).
I can't show you how well WC would work in a cross-style match up, as I'm not sure any tests have been done to such a degree. Even in MMA fights, a wing chunner will be unable to apply certain WC concepts, because when one of those concepts is "you break their ear drums" it is generally frowned upon in MMA fights. Least wise, that's my understanding of it. Still, the science isn't Wing Chun is better than Okinawan Kempo because X, Y, and Z. It is Wing Chun applies these rules of physics, X, Y, and Z, which makes it a sound system. An example of this is the concept of Economy of Motion. A wing chun strike will be, by it's nature (and if done properly) extremely fast, because mathematics states that a line from point A to point B is most direct when it does not go to point C (which is outside of said line). That is not a value judgment of the Kempo which Defender is studying, but a judgment upon the application of mathematics to the Wing Chun I am studying.
Call, any delivery system for blows has to put you in a good position to deliver those blows. if you can't hit my nose more then I can hit yours, you probably can't hit my throat or nuts or eardrum more then I can hit yours. Escalating the areas of contact and disregarding the ring rules are facts of self defense, but using them to justify sabatoging the contact level or frequency of the live portion of your training is a crutch.
As far of economy of motion, one of my particular problems with WC is they stress that principle until speed is emphasized to the detriment of power - you see WC demos with guys doing all this remarkable fast hitting against a static target, but take them off the wooden dummy and make them fight a man that will hook around the center line and that handspeed melts in the sun.
In the unique case of thai-trained muay thai fighters vs karate fighters, I'd say you have a point - thai fighters plautau and burn out because of the age they start full contact and because of, well, living in thailand, not be a dick about it.
I don't see, in western or even pac-rim competion, the sudden wave of thai style guys retiring after 5 years as traditionalists their age in the arts suddenly surpass them.
Some of our guys went to Thailand recently. Holy shit, yeah, not cool to have stuff like "Hey will the PPP block this street today? Where are the billy-club-and-tear-gas fights going to be tomorrow?" as day-to-day concerns.
What I'm saying is that ring fighters burn out faster and at a higher rate by necessity. You could find rare counterexamples like Joe Lewis, but that's because he didn't get a whole lot. Most guys in, say, UFC, are "really old" by the time they hit 40. Same with pro athletes.
I would also agree to a point that you can't say "oh, we can't use that technique...it's too deadly to practice." There are times when it's true. Karate features strikes aimed at the eyes or trachea. It also features armbars. Armbars can be done safely in practice sparring by people who have high enough skill to know how much is too much. Eye-spears and trachea punches are a bad idea at almost any level. EDIT: But my partial agreement is that people often hide behind it even when it's not true, since it's pretty much impossible to prove.
Also, I am not studying a style labeled as Okinawan Kempo. I may have at some point, but I can't remember.
No, I said virtually ever top level fighter cross trains. It was true in Lewis' time and it's doubly or triply true now. The exact, particularly offensive, phrase you put in my mouth was to imply I was calling Fumio Demura "a bitch"
Yes, and what point does that make? That karate training is no good for punching? Because that's the point you were supporting at the time. Of course everybody cross-trains now that it's easy enough to do! But saying that karate punches suck and that good karate fighters (Lewis) aren't really karate fighters is tantamount to saying that karate guys can't fight. All I did was supply the name.
Call, I really, really like you. I think you're one of the neatest persons I know, and I hope you win any fight you get in, because I know it won't be you starting it and you'll generally be the situational underdog by default.
but
While you're correct about physics and physiology being how you knock someone out. You're incorrect to imply that wing chun has some sort of definitive lock on proper mechanics, or even that the mechanics of Wing Chun are particularly "scientific" or correct themeselves. There are LEGIONS of western boxers in south america - I'm talking ameutuers in their teens, not just shining examples like Manny Paquiao - who are your size and can generate a knockout with "straight" (i'm taking that to mean 'western' since there if there's a martial art with a doctrine of sticking to literally straight punches, it's the centerline based wing chun and not something else)
I actually have very strong feelings about wing chun - I think it's one of the few fighting systems that is actually, for most people, generally and broadly inferior. I will generally roll my eyes at WC. Just as I roll my eyes at Olympic TKD. (Said Eyeroool, btw, doesn't imply that they produce all bad fighters or no good fighters or can't fight in general...it essentially implies I think the same person could get there faster in a different system)
I didn't do that in your case because my thinking was, well, you're a really smart, lined out person, and if you're happy with a school, it's probably a good individual school, maybe that proverbial exception that proves the rule.
Wing Chun adhearents have been taught that it is scientifically superior for the last few decades - where is that science? Can you show me in a study how wing chun produces superior force? Barring that, can you show me the next best thing - a long record of real, well documented wing chun fighters consistently winning legitimate cross style matches?
Wing chun is not "scientific" because the instructor says so.
PS come on knob ain't even all that big. 190. Tops. Before he showers the sticky stuff off. Sticky stuff adds 5 pounds. Sometimes 7.
Oh, I ain't sayin' that WC is the only system to apply physics and physiology to a fight, nor that it is doing it in the end-all, be-all manner. Just that it is present in the system, and definitely enhances it to a great degree (I feel; especially from what I have seen given my own abilities versus my own size).
I'm not really sure why you're rolling your eyes at WC, is the thing. Still, I do go to an exceptional school. I know that much (and am thankful for it every time I go to class).
I can't show you how well WC would work in a cross-style match up, as I'm not sure any tests have been done to such a degree. Even in MMA fights, a wing chunner will be unable to apply certain WC concepts, because when one of those concepts is "you break their ear drums" it is generally frowned upon in MMA fights. Least wise, that's my understanding of it. Still, the science isn't Wing Chun is better than Okinawan Kempo because X, Y, and Z. It is Wing Chun applies these rules of physics, X, Y, and Z, which makes it a sound system. An example of this is the concept of Economy of Motion. A wing chun strike will be, by it's nature (and if done properly) extremely fast, because mathematics states that a line from point A to point B is most direct when it does not go to point C (which is outside of said line). That is not a value judgment of the Kempo which Defender is studying, but a judgment upon the application of mathematics to the Wing Chun I am studying.
Call, any delivery system for blows has to put you in a good position to deliver those blows. if you can't hit my nose more then I can hit yours, you probably can't hit my throat or nuts or eardrum more then I can hit yours. Escalating the areas of contact and disregarding the ring rules are facts of self defense, but using them to justify sabatoging the contact level or frequency of the live portion of your training is a crutch.
As far of economy of motion, one of my particular problems with WC is they stress that principle until speed is emphasized to the detriment of power - you see WC demos with guys doing all this remarkable fast hitting against a static target, but take them off the wooden dummy and make them fight a man that will hook around the center line and that handspeed melts in the sun.
In the unique case of thai-trained muay thai fighters vs karate fighters, I'd say you have a point - thai fighters plautau and burn out because of the age they start full contact and because of, well, living in thailand, not be a dick about it.
I don't see, in western or even pac-rim competion, the sudden wave of thai style guys retiring after 5 years as traditionalists their age in the arts suddenly surpass them.
What I'm saying is that ring fighters burn out faster and at a higher rate by necessity. You could find rare counterexamples like Joe Lewis, but that's because he didn't get a whole lot. Most guys in, say, UFC, are "really old" by the time they hit 40. Same with pro athletes.
Also, I am not studying a style labeled as Okinawan Kempo. I may have at some point, but I can't remember.
MMA is actually turning out to be pretty forgiving to people, on the relative scale of professional contact sports. Compared to striking-only competitions or abstract competitions like football and basketball, it far lower injury rates and the potential for brain damage has been shown to be far lower then football or boxing.
As far as eyepokes etc, if you're going smash somebody's throat in in a "real" fight, you're probably going to do it by surprise or not at all, likewise the eyes and ears. Sometimes you can peg someone in the groin, but even that gets MUCH harder when the food is wiggling. FWITW I actually get hit in the nuts and thumbed in the eye and crossfaced and other cheap shit as well as generally beaten on MORE in my sport MMA training then I ever did when I trained the "street lethal" kajukenbo system.
I think cal just pulled OK out as a quick example, I don't think that was a dig at either one of us.
No, I said virtually ever top level fighter cross trains. It was true in Lewis' time and it's doubly or triply true now. The exact, particularly offensive, phrase you put in my mouth was to imply I was calling Fumio Demura "a bitch"
Yes, and what point does that make? That karate training is no good for punching? Because that's the point you were supporting at the time. Of course everybody cross-trains now that it's easy enough to do! But saying that karate punches suck and that good karate fighters (Lewis) aren't really karate fighters is tantamount to saying that karate guys can't fight. All I did was supply the name.
Seriously, defender, you took that as WAY more then I meant it. He asked about a specialty, you sent him to, in my opinion, a generalist. if you're less good then a specialist, that doesn't mean you're shit. A pro-level generalist is certainly far better then a novice, and if you need a guy who can do more then one thing, he can still be better then a specialist on that day. My friend is an cook/band member. His band isn't as good as Metallica, and he doesn't cook as good as emeril, but if I need music and food, I'm not going to go to Metallica or Emeril.
As far as the debate over when you stop being a ______ fighter when you crosstrain, I guess you can place that line for yourself, but it's a stone fact that top level guys cross train, extensively. It's a fact that Joe Lewis did so and his match-winning technique is a hybrid result of that training, no matter what he calls it or what name he puts to the system today. Fuck, man, when you're a pro, there's no reason to study one art.
Seriously, defender, you took that as WAY more then I meant it. He asked about a specialty, you sent him to, in my opinion, a generalist.
I would consider karate to be an art that specializes in refinement and precision of movements like that one. There's much more focus on it there than in many other arts I've seen.
this girl is trying to tell me how great trampolining is
apparently a trampoline strengthens your muscles by increasing your gravitational pull
joy
I picture you looking down and posting from like a Blackberry or something while she's still talking.
"look you're just fucking wrong ok?"
"I'm not it said in the brochure that- what are you doing?"
"I'm telling the internet. I'm telling the internet that you're a stupid bitch"
Ugh, todays workout was tough. I think my body is still recovering from whatever chest plague fucked me over last week.
powercleans
1x3@205
1x3@225
3x3@245
1x2@255
Squats ( Ass to grass)
1x4@215
1x4@225
4x4@245
Bench
3x3@195
I had barely anything left for bench. It doesn't really matter, since I just use bench as a means of taxing the CNS rather than focusing on pure strength. If I can't finish the sets (for bench) then I by all means should quit or else the sprint work for the week will be jeopardized.
this girl is trying to tell me how great trampolining is
apparently a trampoline strengthens your muscles by increasing your gravitational pull
joy
I picture you looking down and posting from like a Blackberry or something while she's still talking.
"look you're just fucking wrong ok?"
"I'm not it said in the brochure that- what are you doing?"
"I'm telling the internet. I'm telling the internet that you're a stupid bitch"
Hey so yeah, weightlifting. Did squats today, after a couple weeks off over the break while my gym was closed. I kept it at the same weight from before, but wasn't able to finish, not due to my muscles feeling tired, but because I kept getting insane head rushes after I did a set. Like how you get if you just wake up from a nap and then immediately spring out of bed. Is there a way to work on this, other than just doing more squats? Is this a sign I need to do more cardio or something? Do I have the cancer?
Hey so yeah, weightlifting. Did squats today, after a couple weeks off over the break while my gym was closed. I kept it at the same weight from before, but wasn't able to finish, not due to my muscles feeling tired, but because I kept getting insane head rushes after I did a set. Like how you get if you just wake up from a nap and then immediately spring out of bed. Is there a way to work on this, other than just doing more squats? Is this a sign I need to do more cardio or something? Do I have the cancer?
Do you eat before you workout? Do you drink water?
Ugh, todays workout was tough. I think my body is still recovering from whatever chest plague fucked me over last week.
powercleans
1x3@205
1x3@225
3x3@245
1x2@255
Squats ( Ass to grass)
1x4@215
1x4@225
4x4@245
Bench
3x3@195
I had barely anything left for bench. It doesn't really matter, since I just use bench as a means of taxing the CNS rather than focusing on pure strength. If I can't finish the sets (for bench) then I by all means should quit or else the sprint work for the week will be jeopardized.
Brutal routine. Bench after squats AND power cleans? Dear God.
Posts
I would consider this a rejection of the system because the straight punch and the front kick are pretty much the two staple moves of traditional karate. Without the straight punch, the system is gravely weakened.
OK, I named Oyama for you. You blanketed with "top fighters don't train in karate" and even said (more or less) that Joe Lewis isn't really a karate fighter. So it's not really like I totally put words in your mouth there, I just added a small number of names including Oyama.
No, I said virtually ever top level fighter cross trains. It was true in Lewis' time and it's doubly or triply true now. The exact, particularly offensive, phrase you put in my mouth was to imply I was calling Fumio Demura "a bitch"
I host a podcast about movies.
Some of our guys went to Thailand recently. Holy shit, yeah, not cool to have stuff like "Hey will the PPP block this street today? Where are the billy-club-and-tear-gas fights going to be tomorrow?" as day-to-day concerns.
What I'm saying is that ring fighters burn out faster and at a higher rate by necessity. You could find rare counterexamples like Joe Lewis, but that's because he didn't get a whole lot. Most guys in, say, UFC, are "really old" by the time they hit 40. Same with pro athletes.
I would also agree to a point that you can't say "oh, we can't use that technique...it's too deadly to practice." There are times when it's true. Karate features strikes aimed at the eyes or trachea. It also features armbars. Armbars can be done safely in practice sparring by people who have high enough skill to know how much is too much. Eye-spears and trachea punches are a bad idea at almost any level. EDIT: But my partial agreement is that people often hide behind it even when it's not true, since it's pretty much impossible to prove.
Also, I am not studying a style labeled as Okinawan Kempo. I may have at some point, but I can't remember.
Yes, and what point does that make? That karate training is no good for punching? Because that's the point you were supporting at the time. Of course everybody cross-trains now that it's easy enough to do! But saying that karate punches suck and that good karate fighters (Lewis) aren't really karate fighters is tantamount to saying that karate guys can't fight. All I did was supply the name.
But Chi Sao is really fun.
With that piece of information at your disposal, I believe that you have enough facts to make a sound conclusion.
MMA is actually turning out to be pretty forgiving to people, on the relative scale of professional contact sports. Compared to striking-only competitions or abstract competitions like football and basketball, it far lower injury rates and the potential for brain damage has been shown to be far lower then football or boxing.
As far as eyepokes etc, if you're going smash somebody's throat in in a "real" fight, you're probably going to do it by surprise or not at all, likewise the eyes and ears. Sometimes you can peg someone in the groin, but even that gets MUCH harder when the food is wiggling. FWITW I actually get hit in the nuts and thumbed in the eye and crossfaced and other cheap shit as well as generally beaten on MORE in my sport MMA training then I ever did when I trained the "street lethal" kajukenbo system.
I think cal just pulled OK out as a quick example, I don't think that was a dig at either one of us.
I host a podcast about movies.
Seriously, defender, you took that as WAY more then I meant it. He asked about a specialty, you sent him to, in my opinion, a generalist. if you're less good then a specialist, that doesn't mean you're shit. A pro-level generalist is certainly far better then a novice, and if you need a guy who can do more then one thing, he can still be better then a specialist on that day. My friend is an cook/band member. His band isn't as good as Metallica, and he doesn't cook as good as emeril, but if I need music and food, I'm not going to go to Metallica or Emeril.
As far as the debate over when you stop being a ______ fighter when you crosstrain, I guess you can place that line for yourself, but it's a stone fact that top level guys cross train, extensively. It's a fact that Joe Lewis did so and his match-winning technique is a hybrid result of that training, no matter what he calls it or what name he puts to the system today. Fuck, man, when you're a pro, there's no reason to study one art.
I host a podcast about movies.
I would consider karate to be an art that specializes in refinement and precision of movements like that one. There's much more focus on it there than in many other arts I've seen.
Oh yeah, that's right. And I also briefly studied that in college, I think. Now I'm recalling this.
Satans..... hints.....
Satans..... hints.....
So many rude titties in Rome...
Satans..... hints.....
Attia of the Julii would get it so hard.
apparently a trampoline strengthens your muscles by increasing your gravitational pull
joy
I picture you looking down and posting from like a Blackberry or something while she's still talking.
Such as semen.
Satans..... hints.....
"look you're just fucking wrong ok?"
"I'm not it said in the brochure that- what are you doing?"
"I'm telling the internet. I'm telling the internet that you're a stupid bitch"
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
How fast are you moving on this trampoline!?
powercleans
1x3@205
1x3@225
3x3@245
1x2@255
Squats ( Ass to grass)
1x4@215
1x4@225
4x4@245
Bench
3x3@195
I had barely anything left for bench. It doesn't really matter, since I just use bench as a means of taxing the CNS rather than focusing on pure strength. If I can't finish the sets (for bench) then I by all means should quit or else the sprint work for the week will be jeopardized.
Like getting hit in the face with a bag of sand.
Brutal routine. Bench after squats AND power cleans? Dear God.