Women that do porn are almost always going to be damaged goods (and men for that matter). I'd probably throw out a completely unscientific guess of like 90%.
I'm not vilifying porn though, it's not doing the damage - you just need to have some serious issues in order to actually do it in the first place. But everyone in the industry is a consenting adult, even if they are more than likely self destructive.
I think doing a six-man gang bang does damage you, both physically and mentally.
But I think that you're right in a way, because you have to be more damaged to consent to that "performance" in the first place.
Of course, how often are the women consenting, how often are they not?
...you know, there are plenty of women who genuinely enjoy group sex and would probably be upset to know that they're supposed to be damaged. News flash: women frequently like having sex. Women frequently like having kinky sex.
Do you consider a man "damaged" if he consents to having sex with six women?
I'm not talking about "group sex," I'm talking about a gang bang. Have you seen a six-man gangbang video? That is not "group sex."
A woman does not have to be "damaged" to consent to group sex. She has to be damaged to consent to what you see in a porn gangbang video.
Or... not?
It may be likely, it may even cover the vast majority of the people involved, but it's not actually up to you to decide what it is that makes a woman damaged sexually. People have a variety of kinks. If you happen to get off on A.) Multiple Partners and B.) Rough Sex as well as presumably C.) Exhibitionism then I can only imagine the typical gangbang is a delight.
It's like assuming that every person who likes to be tied up needs to go to rape counseling.
*shrug* It might be, but it wouldn't make much sense unless a lot of people are getting away with felonies, in which case law enforcement should probably do something about that. From The Cat's link, $2000 a day for hardcore? That's quite a bit to pay someone to be in a movie you can't really even afford a real camera and light to shoot properly.
Wait, is that seriously your argument? It must not be happening because it's illegal?
Porn is a grey-market industry. There are no standardized rates outside of the old "legitimate" video production industries in the San Fernando Valley (which are still often tied to the mob - it's hard to get legitimate financing for porn), no unions, and very few contracts. There are enough anecdotal accounts of stars - experienced women with some amount of industry clout - being plied with booze and pills that it's fairly safe to assume that the same can and does happen to Jill Partier on Cabo.
Basically, saying "people who do that type of porn have gotta be some fucked up people, but people who do this type of porn can totally just be normal people who like sex" is a completely retarded idea.
With no factual basis in reality and speaks very loudly of a person who is imposing their own sexual values and mores on other people and outright judging them for it.
Would you consider a man damaged if he consented to have rough sex with 6 women with him in a submissive role?
Is it taped and distributed to lots of people? than probably, yeah. But of course, nothing is for sure.
Why? There are people who get off on exhibitionism, and there are people who simply don't mind the work and like the money very much. Who are you to say that their motives can't actually be what they think they are? Just because you don't want to do something and don't see why other people would doesn't make you right and them wrong.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
edited November 2008
As a sidenote, I don't really think this thread is the place to repeat a lot of "sex-positive" platitudes. Yes, people who have kinky sex are often well-adjusted folk who go around shattering the puritan boundaries that constrain lesser minds, and kudos to them, I guess. They are also not the ones we find crowding jails, rehab clinics, and shelters.
*shrug* It might be, but it wouldn't make much sense unless a lot of people are getting away with felonies, in which case law enforcement should probably do something about that. From The Cat's link, $2000 a day for hardcore? That's quite a bit to pay someone to be in a movie you can't really even afford a real camera and light to shoot properly.
Wait, is that seriously your argument? It must not be happening because it's illegal?
Would you consider a man damaged if he consented to have rough sex with 6 women with him in a submissive role?
Is it taped and distributed to lots of people? than probably, yeah. But of course, nothing is for sure.
Why? There are people who get off on exhibitionism, and there are people who simply don't mind the work and like the money very much. Who are you to say that their motives can't actually be what they think they are? Just because you don't want to do something and don't see why other people would doesn't make you right and them wrong.
If you get off on exhibitionism, go do naughty things in public or swing with your partner. It's possible to be in porn and be perfectly healthy, but you are out of your mind if you think it's uncommon for people in the industry to have deep seated issues.
As a sidenote, I don't really think this thread is the place to repeat a lot of "sex-positive" platitudes. Yes, people who have kinky sex are often well-adjusted folk who go around shattering the puritan boundaries that constrain lesser minds, and kudos to them, I guess. They are also not the ones we find crowding jails, rehab clinics, and shelters.
And the ones you find crowding jailes, rehab clinics, and shelters are not necessarily the ones you find in porn.
Would you consider a man damaged if he consented to have rough sex with 6 women with him in a submissive role?
Is it taped and distributed to lots of people? than probably, yeah. But of course, nothing is for sure.
Why? There are people who get off on exhibitionism, and there are people who simply don't mind the work and like the money very much. Who are you to say that their motives can't actually be what they think they are? Just because you don't want to do something and don't see why other people would doesn't make you right and them wrong.
If you get off on exhibitionism, go do naughty things in public or swing with your partner. It's possible to be in porn and be perfectly healthy, but you are out of your mind if you think it's uncommon for people in the industry to have deep seated issues.
Which differentiates them from people outside the industry how, exactly?
As a sidenote, I don't really think this thread is the place to repeat a lot of "sex-positive" platitudes. Yes, people who have kinky sex are often well-adjusted folk who go around shattering the puritan boundaries that constrain lesser minds, and kudos to them, I guess. They are also not the ones we find crowding jails, rehab clinics, and shelters.
I would venture to guess that most people in jails, rehab clinics, and shelters aren't any kinkier than anyone else. Your point?
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
*shrug* It might be, but it wouldn't make much sense unless a lot of people are getting away with felonies, in which case law enforcement should probably do something about that. From The Cat's link, $2000 a day for hardcore? That's quite a bit to pay someone to be in a movie you can't really even afford a real camera and light to shoot properly.
Wait, is that seriously your argument? It must not be happening because it's illegal?
Yeah, sure, whatever.
Your tireless commitment to effective communication is commendable.
As a sidenote, I don't really think this thread is the place to repeat a lot of "sex-positive" platitudes. Yes, people who have kinky sex are often well-adjusted folk who go around shattering the puritan boundaries that constrain lesser minds, and kudos to them, I guess. They are also not the ones we find crowding jails, rehab clinics, and shelters.
And the ones you find crowding jailes, rehab clinics, and shelters are not necessarily the ones you find in porn.
Honestly, this post just blows my fucking mind. Where should I talk about healthy, non-judgemental views on sex if not in a thread about sex? Are all threads in D&D full of this outright dismissal of other people's views? How on earth can you post in a forum with 'discourse' in the title when you make these kinds of posts?
As a sidenote, I don't really think this thread is the place to repeat a lot of "sex-positive" platitudes. Yes, people who have kinky sex are often well-adjusted folk who go around shattering the puritan boundaries that constrain lesser minds, and kudos to them, I guess. They are also not the ones we find crowding jails, rehab clinics, and shelters.
And the ones you find crowding jailes, rehab clinics, and shelters are not necessarily the ones you find in porn.
Honestly, this post just blows my fucking mind. Where should I talk about healthy, non-judgemental views on sex if not in a thread about sex? Are all threads in D&D full of this outright dismissal of other people's views? How on earth can you post in a forum with 'discourse' in the title when you make these kinds of posts?
No, honestly, it's generally pretty good in here. Sex + money just pushes a lot of people's buttons.
As a sidenote, I don't really think this thread is the place to repeat a lot of "sex-positive" platitudes. Yes, people who have kinky sex are often well-adjusted folk who go around shattering the puritan boundaries that constrain lesser minds, and kudos to them, I guess. They are also not the ones we find crowding jails, rehab clinics, and shelters.
And the ones you find crowding jailes, rehab clinics, and shelters are not necessarily the ones you find in porn.
Honestly, this post just blows my fucking mind. Where should I talk about healthy, non-judgemental views on sex if not in a thread about sex? Are all threads in D&D full of this outright dismissal of other people's views? How on earth can you post in a forum with 'discourse' in the title when you make these kinds of posts?
WELCOME TO D&D ORIK
you see why i don't post here outside of TV show threads and the chat thread, for the most part.
Because I doubt many people would argue that anyone, even an SO, has any right to request you stop imagining certain things.
Actually, your S.O. has no ability to discern what you are imagining, and therefore logically cannot enforce any right to know what you fantasize about. That is different that your assumption, which is that what you fantasize about is irrelevant to your S.O., or what you think about or fantasize about is irrelevant to your relationship, or at least irrelevant to the point where your partner has no logical interest or right in it. If you were to honestly say to your S.O. "I have sexual fantasies about people other than you," I imagine the ensuing conversation would be..... tense. "Hey PotatoNinja, baby, sugar, love, just FYI I mastrubate while fantasizing about my ex-boyfriend" would probably put me in a pretty foul mood, and I'm pretty open / relaxed when it comes to an individual's right to personal sexual fantasies.
Actually, yeah, I'm going to argue that "what you think about or fantasize is irrelevant to your relationship, or at least irrelevant to the point where your partner has no logical intereste or right in it." This holds true EXACTLY to the point where you make it relevant to the relationship.
If you fantasize about, say, Transformers fucking, it is precisely none of your partner's business unless you do one or more of the following things:
- Neglect them sexually in favor of fantasizing about Transformer porn.
- Try to get them to wear painted cardboard boxes and make clanking noises during sex.
- Fill their computer up with Transformer porn and viruses gotten from obtaining the same.
- Spend all your waking time and/or money in pursuit of videos of Optimus Prime doing the nasty with Starscream.
- Talk constantly about Transformers porn in a way that makes them uncomfortable.
You get the idea. However, if you just quietly look at Transformers porn on your own computer, take care of your partner emotionally and sexually, don't spend all your money on robot sex pictures, etc., your interest in Transformers fucking each other should be irrlelevant to your partner.
If the mere knowledge that, at some points, you might be fantasizing about someone or something other than them, with or without some sort of aid, bothers your partner so much that he or she asks you to stop, your partner is being unreasonable. Your response can be reasonable, whether or not you decide to accede to their request, but the request itself is unreasonable.
If your argument is "safe fantasy = safe, unreasonable concern = unreasonable," I'm not going to disagree. That's kind of tautological, but as I stated, there are degrees and levels of harm that your fantasies and your partner's concerns about your fantasies can play in a relationship. Its quite possible for you to have any number of bizarre, unfaithful, or outlandish personal fantasies that you never act out, that don't harm your relationship, and that are, as they are not harmful, are basically none of your partner's business. It is also possible that your internal fantasies are harmful to the relationship, are harmful to your s.o., and in that case are very relevant to them and are very much their business.
I imagine that most internal fantasies fall somewhere in between, and if it makes you feel better I'll even argue that they tend to fall more towards the "safe and irrelevant" side as opposed to the "rar rar rar destroy your life!" side.
Your internal fantasies are relevant to the relationship by default, by definition. They may be relevant on a very minor, subconscious level, to such an extent than any concern about them would be nitpicking, "unreasonable," or they may be relevant on a much more significant scale, but they are relevant. A fantasy that does not involve your partner is, in likely small ways, unfaithful and demeaning to them. It is an indication of a desire to be with someone or something other than your partner. Whether you act on that desire, whether it influences your relationship, that depends on context. An empty bottle of booze doesn't make you an alcoholic, but it also doesn't make you not-one.
I suspect that the general angle of approach for many a young man will be "I can think about having sex with other girls, as long as its my own internal fantasy and I never act on it its ok." That's not necessarily untrue, if we assume that your fantasies don't harm the relationship, then sure its appropriate, but that's an assumption. We can also assume that its a sign of your secret intent to fuck anything that moves, in which case it is perhaps less appropriate (unless you have a particularly open relationship).
This is kind of like the entire porn argument preceeding it: If you watch porn that doesn't harm your relationship, then its ok. If you have internal fantasies that don't harm your relationship, then its ok.
My problem is with this part: "That doesn't harm your relationship." Not with this part: "Then its ok." That pornography or fantasies have no effect on you and your relationship is an assumption that I'm not willing to grant as always true, and as a corollary to that, I'm going to grant your partner's concern about porn or fantasies a certain amount of leeway as potentially valid.
It is worth noting that, just as fantasies and porn have degrees of health / harm, so to does your partner's concern about the same. "I want to try and fulfill your fantasies" is not the same as "a previous S.O. cheated on me, and when you fantasize about other people it causes me great concern" which is different than "I want to be the only object of sexual lust in your life," which is also different than "I seek control over your mind and body and will attempt to use your biological desires against you." Just as we can have safe, happy, transformer fetishes, we can have safe, happy, "I'm worried about you." I'm in full agreement with you that "healthy (in the context of a relationship) fantasy = healthy," but I'm not going to agree to the implicit point that "fantasies = healthy" or the point that follows: "concern = unreasonable."
Would you consider a man damaged if he consented to have rough sex with 6 women with him in a submissive role?
Is it taped and distributed to lots of people? than probably, yeah. But of course, nothing is for sure.
Why? There are people who get off on exhibitionism, and there are people who simply don't mind the work and like the money very much. Who are you to say that their motives can't actually be what they think they are? Just because you don't want to do something and don't see why other people would doesn't make you right and them wrong.
If you get off on exhibitionism, go do naughty things in public or swing with your partner. It's possible to be in porn and be perfectly healthy, but you are out of your mind if you think it's uncommon for people in the industry to have deep seated issues.
Which differentiates them from people outside the industry how, exactly?
In what regard? nothing, frankly. It's a symptom of an underlying cause, and it can exacerbate the sypmtoms of those causes. But there are plenty of fucked up people who have nothing to do with porn.
Did you guys see the first season of celeb rehab? For Mary Carey it was integral to her path to recovery that she not go back into the industry - because that type of environment is like disneyland for a self destructive addict.
Basically, saying "people who do that type of porn have gotta be some fucked up people, but people who do this type of porn can totally just be normal people who like sex" is a completely retarded idea.
With no factual basis in reality and speaks very loudly of a person who is imposing their own sexual values and mores on other people and outright judging them for it.
So are we claiming that no style of porn-sex is likely to be associated almost exclusively with "fucked-up" people? 2 Girls 1 Cup?
I mean, either A) all porn is equally valid and decrying any of it is silly, or some of that shit is messed up and anyone who would submit to it is likely fucked in the head. If , then we need to figure out where the line is.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Basically, saying "people who do that type of porn have gotta be some fucked up people, but people who do this type of porn can totally just be normal people who like sex" is a completely retarded idea.
With no factual basis in reality and speaks very loudly of a person who is imposing their own sexual values and mores on other people and outright judging them for it.
That's a good point, that the type of porn people do is not inherently related to how fucked up they are.
However, in our culture it is. Regardless of whether social mores about sex are good or not, you have to have a very distorted socialization to engage in deviation to that extent. That distortion (which is not at all necessarily a bad thing) can mean you were raised by parents who are incredibly sexually liberal, or you have totally rejected common social values about sex; it can also mean you were abused.
I suppose I think the latter is more common and more likely, but obviously I cannot substantiate that.
Evil Multifarious on
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
At the same time, condom use is reportedly low in heterosexual adult films—approximately 17% for adult performers [5]. In 2004, only two of the 200 adult film companies required the use of condoms for all penile–anal and penile–vaginal penetration [2]. Performers report that they are required to work without condoms to maintain employment.
[emphasis mine]
Clearly these are empowered modern women taking charge of their bodies in a man's world, mirite?
Basically, saying "people who do that type of porn have gotta be some fucked up people, but people who do this type of porn can totally just be normal people who like sex" is a completely retarded idea.
With no factual basis in reality and speaks very loudly of a person who is imposing their own sexual values and mores on other people and outright judging them for it.
So are we claiming that no style of porn-sex is likely to be associated almost exclusively with "fucked-up" people? 2 Girls 1 Cup?
I mean, either A) all porn is equally valid and decrying any of it is silly, or some of that shit is messed up and anyone who would submit to it is likely fucked in the head. If , then we need to figure out where the line is.
At the same time, condom use is reportedly low in heterosexual adult films—approximately 17% for adult performers [5]. In 2004, only two of the 200 adult film companies required the use of condoms for all penile–anal and penile–vaginal penetration [2]. Performers report that they are required to work without condoms to maintain employment.
Clearly these are empowered modern women taking charge of their bodies in a man's world, mirite?
If condom use had a direct correlation to being convicted of a crime, there wouldn't be anyone walking around at my university right now.
Regardless of whether social mores about sex are good or not, you have to have a very distorted socialization to engage in deviation to that extent.
No you don't! You're imposing your own sexual views on the world! You're an ideological imperialist!
Thank you, Orik.
What Multifarious is basically saying is "Like it or not, these sexual mores exist and if you defy them so readily there must be something wrong with you"
Basically, saying "people who do that type of porn have gotta be some fucked up people, but people who do this type of porn can totally just be normal people who like sex" is a completely retarded idea.
With no factual basis in reality and speaks very loudly of a person who is imposing their own sexual values and mores on other people and outright judging them for it.
So are we claiming that no style of porn-sex is likely to be associated almost exclusively with "fucked-up" people? 2 Girls 1 Cup?
I mean, either A) all porn is equally valid and decrying any of it is silly, or some of that shit is messed up and anyone who would submit to it is likely fucked in the head. If , then we need to figure out where the line is.
and what if the line keeps changing?
I think the more relevant question is: "Is there a line?"
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Basically, saying "people who do that type of porn have gotta be some fucked up people, but people who do this type of porn can totally just be normal people who like sex" is a completely retarded idea.
With no factual basis in reality and speaks very loudly of a person who is imposing their own sexual values and mores on other people and outright judging them for it.
So are we claiming that no style of porn-sex is likely to be associated almost exclusively with "fucked-up" people? 2 Girls 1 Cup?
I mean, either A) all porn is equally valid and decrying any of it is silly, or some of that shit is messed up and anyone who would submit to it is likely fucked in the head. If , then we need to figure out where the line is.
and what if the line keeps changing?
what if? huh? the lines are always changing - it used to be deviate to pose for pictures nude, and now it can be totally classy. what if the lines change isnt even a question, it's a certainty. But I'm pretty sure society isn't going to start thinking racially charged gang bangs are healthy any time soon.
Did you guys see the first season of celeb rehab? For Mary Carey it was integral to her path to recovery that she not go back into the industry - because that type of environment is like disneyland for a self destructive addict.
That's kind of the majority of the entertainment industry, man.
Did you guys see the first season of celeb rehab? For Mary Carey it was integral to her path to recovery that she not go back into the industry - because that type of environment is like disneyland for a self destructive addict.
That's kind of the majority of the entertainment industry, man.
Regardless of whether social mores about sex are good or not, you have to have a very distorted socialization to engage in deviation to that extent.
No you don't! You're imposing your own sexual views on the world! You're an ideological imperialist!
Thank you, Orik.
What Multifarious is basically saying is "Like it or not, these sexual mores exist and if you defy them so readily there must be something wrong with you"
that idea is dumb.
You are misunderstanding my point.
I am saying "Like it or not, these sexual mores exist, and if you defy them so readily there must be something radically different about how your attitudes were shaped."
This is what I mean by "distorted" or "deviant," which have negative connotations in general usage but in academic usage do not.
Deviation is often a good thing.
The sentence above is fairly self-evident; what is arguable is to what extent the factors that shape those radically different attitudes tend to be abusive or otherwise negative.
Basically, saying "people who do that type of porn have gotta be some fucked up people, but people who do this type of porn can totally just be normal people who like sex" is a completely retarded idea.
With no factual basis in reality and speaks very loudly of a person who is imposing their own sexual values and mores on other people and outright judging them for it.
So are we claiming that no style of porn-sex is likely to be associated almost exclusively with "fucked-up" people? 2 Girls 1 Cup?
I mean, either A) all porn is equally valid and decrying any of it is silly, or some of that shit is messed up and anyone who would submit to it is likely fucked in the head. If , then we need to figure out where the line is.
and what if the line keeps changing?
I think the more relevant question is: "Is there a line?"
well what would the use of figuring out where the line is if it is always changing.
also what would be the use of looking for a line that doesnt exist...
There's no statistic anyone is going to be able to provide that proves the porn industry is fucked up. There's not a magical "here's your level of fucked up, sir" analysis group, there's no "how fucked up is your business?" line to fill in your business tax report.
There's a very large amount of anecdotal evidence that the porn industry is horribly fucked up, and some of the statistics we are able to glean (such as the condom use listed above) don't paint a particularly rosy picture.
I'm a bit baffled to see the rapid defense an accusation against the porn industry brings. Is it that difficult to imagine that a taboo entertainment industry might not be entirely ethical? Would the posters now jumping to the defense of the porn industry likewise jump to the defense of, say, the RIAA? The MPAA?
I don't have any hard numbers that prove that the porn industry is disastrous for women, but I see enough indirect evidence to suggest that perhaps we should put some pressure on the porn industry to be less fucked up. If we judged them too harshly then we'll just have an even healthier, cleaner, shinier porn industry as a reward. We'll take our children to porn screenings so they can be amazed at how happy and wonderful everything is.
Oh yeah, not that I want to imply that people are defending the porn industry for perhaps somewhat dishonest or personally-motived reasons ("I watch porn, porn is OK!"), but its ok to say that the porn industry is bad while porn itself is not. Just letting you folks know that its an argument you can make. Just putting that out there.
Did you guys see the first season of celeb rehab? For Mary Carey it was integral to her path to recovery that she not go back into the industry - because that type of environment is like disneyland for a self destructive addict.
That's kind of the majority of the entertainment industry, man.
well that's true. good ol' cocaine.
also the professional and amateur boxing/martial arts scene
At the same time, condom use is reportedly low in heterosexual adult films—approximately 17% for adult performers [5]. In 2004, only two of the 200 adult film companies required the use of condoms for all penile–anal and penile–vaginal penetration [2]. Performers report that they are required to work without condoms to maintain employment.
[emphasis mine]
Clearly these are empowered modern women taking charge of their bodies in a man's world, mirite?
I would assume that women on birth control and all participating members engaging in regular STD tests as precondition for shooting would pretty much obviate the need for condoms, yes? Do we know that's not happening?
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Did you guys see the first season of celeb rehab? For Mary Carey it was integral to her path to recovery that she not go back into the industry - because that type of environment is like disneyland for a self destructive addict.
That's kind of the majority of the entertainment industry, man.
well that's true. good ol' cocaine.
And pot. And LSD. And X. And alcohol. And body-composition-adjustment-drugs (steroids, diet-pills, whatever else). And prescription drugs being taken in a manner way, way, way other than as prescribed.
Did you guys see the first season of celeb rehab? For Mary Carey it was integral to her path to recovery that she not go back into the industry - because that type of environment is like disneyland for a self destructive addict.
That's kind of the majority of the entertainment industry, man.
well that's true. good ol' cocaine.
also the professional and amateur boxing/martial arts scene
Did you guys see the first season of celeb rehab? For Mary Carey it was integral to her path to recovery that she not go back into the industry - because that type of environment is like disneyland for a self destructive addict.
That's kind of the majority of the entertainment industry, man.
well that's true. good ol' cocaine.
also the professional and amateur boxing/martial arts scene
holy fucking shit
drug abuse and male prostitution and dang man
just terrible
the amateur scene especially
there's a good question:
if the porn industry is terrible, is it terrible because it's degrading and objectifying etc etc, or is it more terrible because it is part of the entertainment industry?
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
If condom use had a direct correlation to being convicted of a crime, there wouldn't be anyone walking around at my university right now.
The point that you are feverishly trying to gloss over is that the production of porn involves any number of objectionable practices, up to and including pressuring people not to wear condoms during shoots.
That is why I posted about my objection to this ridiculous sex-positive sidetrack. It's a smokescreen issue. Ordinary well-adjusted people having non-standard sex has exactly zero to do with the means by which porn - any kind of porn - is produced, and trying to conflate the two is misguided at best and actively dishonest at worst.
Because I doubt many people would argue that anyone, even an SO, has any right to request you stop imagining certain things.
Actually, your S.O. has no ability to discern what you are imagining, and therefore logically cannot enforce any right to know what you fantasize about. That is different that your assumption, which is that what you fantasize about is irrelevant to your S.O., or what you think about or fantasize about is irrelevant to your relationship, or at least irrelevant to the point where your partner has no logical interest or right in it. If you were to honestly say to your S.O. "I have sexual fantasies about people other than you," I imagine the ensuing conversation would be..... tense. "Hey PotatoNinja, baby, sugar, love, just FYI I mastrubate while fantasizing about my ex-boyfriend" would probably put me in a pretty foul mood, and I'm pretty open / relaxed when it comes to an individual's right to personal sexual fantasies.
Actually, yeah, I'm going to argue that "what you think about or fantasize is irrelevant to your relationship, or at least irrelevant to the point where your partner has no logical intereste or right in it." This holds true EXACTLY to the point where you make it relevant to the relationship.
If you fantasize about, say, Transformers fucking, it is precisely none of your partner's business unless you do one or more of the following things:
- Neglect them sexually in favor of fantasizing about Transformer porn.
- Try to get them to wear painted cardboard boxes and make clanking noises during sex.
- Fill their computer up with Transformer porn and viruses gotten from obtaining the same.
- Spend all your waking time and/or money in pursuit of videos of Optimus Prime doing the nasty with Starscream.
- Talk constantly about Transformers porn in a way that makes them uncomfortable.
You get the idea. However, if you just quietly look at Transformers porn on your own computer, take care of your partner emotionally and sexually, don't spend all your money on robot sex pictures, etc., your interest in Transformers fucking each other should be irrlelevant to your partner.
If the mere knowledge that, at some points, you might be fantasizing about someone or something other than them, with or without some sort of aid, bothers your partner so much that he or she asks you to stop, your partner is being unreasonable. Your response can be reasonable, whether or not you decide to accede to their request, but the request itself is unreasonable.
If your argument is "safe fantasy = safe, unreasonable concern = unreasonable," I'm not going to disagree. That's kind of tautological, but as I stated, there are degrees and levels of harm that your fantasies and your partner's concerns about your fantasies can play in a relationship. Its quite possible for you to have any number of bizarre, unfaithful, or outlandish personal fantasies that you never act out, that don't harm your relationship, and that are, as they are not harmful, are basically none of your partner's business. It is also possible that your internal fantasies are harmful to the relationship, are harmful to your s.o., and in that case are very relevant to them and are very much their business.
If you are doing something with your fantasies in a way that causes ACTUAL harm to your partner, yeah, I already said that makes it their business.
I imagine that most internal fantasies fall somewhere in between, and if it makes you feel better I'll even argue that they tend to fall more towards the "safe and irrelevant" side as opposed to the "rar rar rar destroy your life!" side.
Your internal fantasies are relevant to the relationship by default, by definition. They may be relevant on a very minor, subconscious level, to such an extent than any concern about them would be nitpicking, "unreasonable," or they may be relevant on a much more significant scale, but they are relevant. A fantasy that does not involve your partner is, in likely small ways, unfaithful and demeaning to them. It is an indication of a desire to be with someone or something other than your partner. Whether you act on that desire, whether it influences your relationship, that depends on context. An empty bottle of booze doesn't make you an alcoholic, but it also doesn't make you not-one.
Wait, having a fantasy that doesn't involve your partner is DEMEANING to your partner? Seriously? If my boyfriend has a fantasy about the redhead from Buffy, how precisely am I demeaned? How am I affected at all, especially if he doesn't tell me about it? Being turned on by the idea of someone else doesn't mean you're turned on by your S. O. less.
I suspect that the general angle of approach for many a young man will be "I can think about having sex with other girls, as long as its my own internal fantasy and I never act on it its ok." That's not necessarily untrue, if we assume that your fantasies don't harm the relationship, then sure its appropriate, but that's an assumption. We can also assume that its a sign of your secret intent to fuck anything that moves, in which case it is perhaps less appropriate (unless you have a particularly open relationship).
Well, I'm not a young man, for one thing. It's pretty ridiculous to assume that "fantasy about another person = secret intent to fuck anything that moves," unless you also think "fantasy about running Cheney over with a garbage truck = secret intent to commit widespread political assasination."
This is kind of like the entire porn argument preceeding it: If you watch porn that doesn't harm your relationship, then its ok. If you have internal fantasies that don't harm your relationship, then its ok.
My problem is with this part: "That doesn't harm your relationship." Not with this part: "Then its ok." That pornography or fantasies have no effect on you and your relationship is an assumption that I'm not willing to grant as always true, and as a corollary to that, I'm going to grant your partner's concern about porn or fantasies a certain amount of leeway as potentially valid.
If they have an actual harm on your relationship, I already said that your partner's concerns are valid. Actual harm is the issue, though, and where you attribute that harm.
"Knowing that you fantasize about blondes makes me brunette me jealous" might look at first glance like the fantasy is the problem. I assert that it's not: the jealousy is the problem, probably stemming from insecurity. Now, not fantasizing about blondes gets rid of this one symptom of the problem, but the actual problem still remains. Not talking about the fantasy would also get rid of the symptom. The jealous partner dying her hair blonde would do the same thing. However, the jealous and insecurity haven't changed.
It is worth noting that, just as fantasies and porn have degrees of health / harm, so to does your partner's concern about the same. "I want to try and fulfill your fantasies" is not the same as "a previous S.O. cheated on me, and when you fantasize about other people it causes me great concern" which is different than "I want to be the only object of sexual lust in your life," which is also different than "I seek control over your mind and body and will attempt to use your biological desires against you." Just as we can have safe, happy, transformer fetishes, we can have safe, happy, "I'm worried about you." I'm in full agreement with you that "healthy (in the context of a relationship) fantasy = healthy," but I'm not going to agree to the implicit point that "fantasies = healthy" or the point that follows: "concern = unreasonable."
"I want to be the only object of sexual lust in your life" is the exact same thing as "I seek control over your mind and body and will attempt to use your biological desires against you" from where I'm sitting. Is it possible to expunge all desire for anyone other than your partner forever? Maybe, with enough effort. Is it healthy? I doubt it, and the desire for it indicates a very unhealthy idea on the other person's side. Now, being the one-and-only object of lust is a perfectly reasonable fantasy, of course, but attempting to impose it on the other person falls neatly under the heading of harmful.
There's no statistic anyone is going to be able to provide that proves the porn industry is fucked up. There's not a magical "here's your level of fucked up, sir" analysis group, there's no "how fucked up is your business?" line to fill in your business tax report.
There's a very large amount of anecdotal evidence that the porn industry is horribly fucked up, and some of the statistics we are able to glean (such as the condom use listed above) don't paint a particularly rosy picture.
I'm a bit baffled to see the rapid defense an accusation against the porn industry brings. Is it that difficult to imagine that a taboo entertainment industry might not be entirely ethical? Would the posters now jumping to the defense of the porn industry likewise jump to the defense of, say, the RIAA? The MPAA?
I don't have any hard numbers that prove that the porn industry is disastrous for women, but I see enough indirect evidence to suggest that perhaps we should put some pressure on the porn industry to be less fucked up. If we judged them too harshly then we'll just have an even healthier, cleaner, shinier porn industry as a reward. We'll take our children to porn screenings so they can be amazed at how happy and wonderful everything is.
Oh yeah, not that I want to imply that people are defending the porn industry for perhaps somewhat dishonest or personally-motived reasons ("I watch porn, porn is OK!"), but its ok to say that the porn industry is bad while porn itself is not. Just letting you folks know that its an argument you can make. Just putting that out there.
This is a valid point.
Part of the problem is that porn as an idea really isn't inherently bad or harmful and enjoying porn in and of itself doesn't make you some kind of terrible person.
Nor does being responsible for or participating in the creation of pornography.
I don't think these things carry inherent moral or social weight, and they shouldn't.
Nonetheless, the established and existant industry for pornography as it exists in North America is, I would say fairly, quite fucked up.
The solution to that problem, in part I think, is to stop treating porn itself like some kind of sin.
When you demonize something inherently and put it in the shadows of your civilization, then in the shadows is where it will thrive. You don't even need to make it illegal, just having a societal taboo against it is enough.
I know that the difference in the unlicensed MMA scene, for example, when compared to the pro scene is huge. The unlicensed scene, by virtue of being inherently illegal and existing entirely in the shadows, is filled with corruption, drug abuse, illegal gambling, prostitution, and other heinous bullshit.
So, bringing pornography out of the shadows and social downcast might be part of a solution to the issue.
Posts
Or... not?
It may be likely, it may even cover the vast majority of the people involved, but it's not actually up to you to decide what it is that makes a woman damaged sexually. People have a variety of kinks. If you happen to get off on A.) Multiple Partners and B.) Rough Sex as well as presumably C.) Exhibitionism then I can only imagine the typical gangbang is a delight.
It's like assuming that every person who likes to be tied up needs to go to rape counseling.
Is it taped and distributed to lots of people? than probably, yeah. But of course, nothing is for sure.
Wait, is that seriously your argument? It must not be happening because it's illegal?
Porn is a grey-market industry. There are no standardized rates outside of the old "legitimate" video production industries in the San Fernando Valley (which are still often tied to the mob - it's hard to get legitimate financing for porn), no unions, and very few contracts. There are enough anecdotal accounts of stars - experienced women with some amount of industry clout - being plied with booze and pills that it's fairly safe to assume that the same can and does happen to Jill Partier on Cabo.
With no factual basis in reality and speaks very loudly of a person who is imposing their own sexual values and mores on other people and outright judging them for it.
Why? There are people who get off on exhibitionism, and there are people who simply don't mind the work and like the money very much. Who are you to say that their motives can't actually be what they think they are? Just because you don't want to do something and don't see why other people would doesn't make you right and them wrong.
Yeah, sure, whatever.
If you get off on exhibitionism, go do naughty things in public or swing with your partner. It's possible to be in porn and be perfectly healthy, but you are out of your mind if you think it's uncommon for people in the industry to have deep seated issues.
And the ones you find crowding jailes, rehab clinics, and shelters are not necessarily the ones you find in porn.
Which differentiates them from people outside the industry how, exactly?
I would venture to guess that most people in jails, rehab clinics, and shelters aren't any kinkier than anyone else. Your point?
Your tireless commitment to effective communication is commendable.
are you kidding me? if a guy had the choice to have sex with 6 beautiful women and make sure that everyone knew.....
stereotypes aside, i think you can find someone who would do it.
Honestly, this post just blows my fucking mind. Where should I talk about healthy, non-judgemental views on sex if not in a thread about sex? Are all threads in D&D full of this outright dismissal of other people's views? How on earth can you post in a forum with 'discourse' in the title when you make these kinds of posts?
No, honestly, it's generally pretty good in here. Sex + money just pushes a lot of people's buttons.
WELCOME TO D&D ORIK
you see why i don't post here outside of TV show threads and the chat thread, for the most part.
If your argument is "safe fantasy = safe, unreasonable concern = unreasonable," I'm not going to disagree. That's kind of tautological, but as I stated, there are degrees and levels of harm that your fantasies and your partner's concerns about your fantasies can play in a relationship. Its quite possible for you to have any number of bizarre, unfaithful, or outlandish personal fantasies that you never act out, that don't harm your relationship, and that are, as they are not harmful, are basically none of your partner's business. It is also possible that your internal fantasies are harmful to the relationship, are harmful to your s.o., and in that case are very relevant to them and are very much their business.
I imagine that most internal fantasies fall somewhere in between, and if it makes you feel better I'll even argue that they tend to fall more towards the "safe and irrelevant" side as opposed to the "rar rar rar destroy your life!" side.
Your internal fantasies are relevant to the relationship by default, by definition. They may be relevant on a very minor, subconscious level, to such an extent than any concern about them would be nitpicking, "unreasonable," or they may be relevant on a much more significant scale, but they are relevant. A fantasy that does not involve your partner is, in likely small ways, unfaithful and demeaning to them. It is an indication of a desire to be with someone or something other than your partner. Whether you act on that desire, whether it influences your relationship, that depends on context. An empty bottle of booze doesn't make you an alcoholic, but it also doesn't make you not-one.
I suspect that the general angle of approach for many a young man will be "I can think about having sex with other girls, as long as its my own internal fantasy and I never act on it its ok." That's not necessarily untrue, if we assume that your fantasies don't harm the relationship, then sure its appropriate, but that's an assumption. We can also assume that its a sign of your secret intent to fuck anything that moves, in which case it is perhaps less appropriate (unless you have a particularly open relationship).
This is kind of like the entire porn argument preceeding it: If you watch porn that doesn't harm your relationship, then its ok. If you have internal fantasies that don't harm your relationship, then its ok.
My problem is with this part: "That doesn't harm your relationship." Not with this part: "Then its ok." That pornography or fantasies have no effect on you and your relationship is an assumption that I'm not willing to grant as always true, and as a corollary to that, I'm going to grant your partner's concern about porn or fantasies a certain amount of leeway as potentially valid.
It is worth noting that, just as fantasies and porn have degrees of health / harm, so to does your partner's concern about the same. "I want to try and fulfill your fantasies" is not the same as "a previous S.O. cheated on me, and when you fantasize about other people it causes me great concern" which is different than "I want to be the only object of sexual lust in your life," which is also different than "I seek control over your mind and body and will attempt to use your biological desires against you." Just as we can have safe, happy, transformer fetishes, we can have safe, happy, "I'm worried about you." I'm in full agreement with you that "healthy (in the context of a relationship) fantasy = healthy," but I'm not going to agree to the implicit point that "fantasies = healthy" or the point that follows: "concern = unreasonable."
In what regard? nothing, frankly. It's a symptom of an underlying cause, and it can exacerbate the sypmtoms of those causes. But there are plenty of fucked up people who have nothing to do with porn.
Did you guys see the first season of celeb rehab? For Mary Carey it was integral to her path to recovery that she not go back into the industry - because that type of environment is like disneyland for a self destructive addict.
So are we claiming that no style of porn-sex is likely to be associated almost exclusively with "fucked-up" people? 2 Girls 1 Cup?
I mean, either A) all porn is equally valid and decrying any of it is silly, or
That's a good point, that the type of porn people do is not inherently related to how fucked up they are.
However, in our culture it is. Regardless of whether social mores about sex are good or not, you have to have a very distorted socialization to engage in deviation to that extent. That distortion (which is not at all necessarily a bad thing) can mean you were raised by parents who are incredibly sexually liberal, or you have totally rejected common social values about sex; it can also mean you were abused.
I suppose I think the latter is more common and more likely, but obviously I cannot substantiate that.
[emphasis mine]
Clearly these are empowered modern women taking charge of their bodies in a man's world, mirite?
No you don't! You're imposing your own sexual views on the world! You're an ideological imperialist!
and what if the line keeps changing?
If condom use had a direct correlation to being convicted of a crime, there wouldn't be anyone walking around at my university right now.
Thank you, Orik.
What Multifarious is basically saying is "Like it or not, these sexual mores exist and if you defy them so readily there must be something wrong with you"
that idea is dumb.
I think the more relevant question is: "Is there a line?"
what if? huh? the lines are always changing - it used to be deviate to pose for pictures nude, and now it can be totally classy. what if the lines change isnt even a question, it's a certainty. But I'm pretty sure society isn't going to start thinking racially charged gang bangs are healthy any time soon.
That's kind of the majority of the entertainment industry, man.
well that's true. good ol' cocaine.
You are misunderstanding my point.
I am saying "Like it or not, these sexual mores exist, and if you defy them so readily there must be something radically different about how your attitudes were shaped."
This is what I mean by "distorted" or "deviant," which have negative connotations in general usage but in academic usage do not.
Deviation is often a good thing.
The sentence above is fairly self-evident; what is arguable is to what extent the factors that shape those radically different attitudes tend to be abusive or otherwise negative.
well what would the use of figuring out where the line is if it is always changing.
also what would be the use of looking for a line that doesnt exist...
so i guess they're both relavent
There's a very large amount of anecdotal evidence that the porn industry is horribly fucked up, and some of the statistics we are able to glean (such as the condom use listed above) don't paint a particularly rosy picture.
I'm a bit baffled to see the rapid defense an accusation against the porn industry brings. Is it that difficult to imagine that a taboo entertainment industry might not be entirely ethical? Would the posters now jumping to the defense of the porn industry likewise jump to the defense of, say, the RIAA? The MPAA?
I don't have any hard numbers that prove that the porn industry is disastrous for women, but I see enough indirect evidence to suggest that perhaps we should put some pressure on the porn industry to be less fucked up. If we judged them too harshly then we'll just have an even healthier, cleaner, shinier porn industry as a reward. We'll take our children to porn screenings so they can be amazed at how happy and wonderful everything is.
Oh yeah, not that I want to imply that people are defending the porn industry for perhaps somewhat dishonest or personally-motived reasons ("I watch porn, porn is OK!"), but its ok to say that the porn industry is bad while porn itself is not. Just letting you folks know that its an argument you can make. Just putting that out there.
also the professional and amateur boxing/martial arts scene
holy fucking shit
drug abuse and male prostitution and dang man
just terrible
the amateur scene especially
I would assume that women on birth control and all participating members engaging in regular STD tests as precondition for shooting would pretty much obviate the need for condoms, yes? Do we know that's not happening?
And pot. And LSD. And X. And alcohol. And body-composition-adjustment-drugs (steroids, diet-pills, whatever else). And prescription drugs being taken in a manner way, way, way other than as prescribed.
what is going on here?
there's a good question:
if the porn industry is terrible, is it terrible because it's degrading and objectifying etc etc, or is it more terrible because it is part of the entertainment industry?
The point that you are feverishly trying to gloss over is that the production of porn involves any number of objectionable practices, up to and including pressuring people not to wear condoms during shoots.
That is why I posted about my objection to this ridiculous sex-positive sidetrack. It's a smokescreen issue. Ordinary well-adjusted people having non-standard sex has exactly zero to do with the means by which porn - any kind of porn - is produced, and trying to conflate the two is misguided at best and actively dishonest at worst.
If you are doing something with your fantasies in a way that causes ACTUAL harm to your partner, yeah, I already said that makes it their business.
Wait, having a fantasy that doesn't involve your partner is DEMEANING to your partner? Seriously? If my boyfriend has a fantasy about the redhead from Buffy, how precisely am I demeaned? How am I affected at all, especially if he doesn't tell me about it? Being turned on by the idea of someone else doesn't mean you're turned on by your S. O. less.
Well, I'm not a young man, for one thing. It's pretty ridiculous to assume that "fantasy about another person = secret intent to fuck anything that moves," unless you also think "fantasy about running Cheney over with a garbage truck = secret intent to commit widespread political assasination."
If they have an actual harm on your relationship, I already said that your partner's concerns are valid. Actual harm is the issue, though, and where you attribute that harm.
"Knowing that you fantasize about blondes makes me brunette me jealous" might look at first glance like the fantasy is the problem. I assert that it's not: the jealousy is the problem, probably stemming from insecurity. Now, not fantasizing about blondes gets rid of this one symptom of the problem, but the actual problem still remains. Not talking about the fantasy would also get rid of the symptom. The jealous partner dying her hair blonde would do the same thing. However, the jealous and insecurity haven't changed.
"I want to be the only object of sexual lust in your life" is the exact same thing as "I seek control over your mind and body and will attempt to use your biological desires against you" from where I'm sitting. Is it possible to expunge all desire for anyone other than your partner forever? Maybe, with enough effort. Is it healthy? I doubt it, and the desire for it indicates a very unhealthy idea on the other person's side. Now, being the one-and-only object of lust is a perfectly reasonable fantasy, of course, but attempting to impose it on the other person falls neatly under the heading of harmful.
This is a valid point.
Part of the problem is that porn as an idea really isn't inherently bad or harmful and enjoying porn in and of itself doesn't make you some kind of terrible person.
Nor does being responsible for or participating in the creation of pornography.
I don't think these things carry inherent moral or social weight, and they shouldn't.
Nonetheless, the established and existant industry for pornography as it exists in North America is, I would say fairly, quite fucked up.
The solution to that problem, in part I think, is to stop treating porn itself like some kind of sin.
When you demonize something inherently and put it in the shadows of your civilization, then in the shadows is where it will thrive. You don't even need to make it illegal, just having a societal taboo against it is enough.
I know that the difference in the unlicensed MMA scene, for example, when compared to the pro scene is huge. The unlicensed scene, by virtue of being inherently illegal and existing entirely in the shadows, is filled with corruption, drug abuse, illegal gambling, prostitution, and other heinous bullshit.
So, bringing pornography out of the shadows and social downcast might be part of a solution to the issue.