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Unions, strikes and the people they fuck over.
Meiz
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Having the right to strike is a powerful thing and should be defended as it's the only real method anyone has in order to uphold the rights of employees vs the merciless beast which is corporation.
There are however exceptions to this rule. I'd like to bring to the table a current example which I am right in the middle of.
I live in Ottawa, my nation's capital. The public transit here comprises myriad bus routes coupled with a train that runs from north to south. Getting anywhere is rather simple and it is exceptional. I'd also have to say that the people who keep the service running are of exceptionally high caliber. There is seldom an accident as the people behind the wheels of the service are well trained, punctual and dedicated.
Recent salary negotiations were made and unfortunately, as a result, what was offered is simply not enough for the union. They will therefore, more then likely, be striking and thus crippling the city.
Here's an excerpt from an article I've read today regarding the negotiations, the offer and potential outcome:
Here's the full article:
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/story.html?id=1052073
Now considering the current economic climate and the fact that the average salary of an OCTranspo bus drivers is 80000 to 95000 a year, I'd say that's a pretty awesome deal. There's also the fact that their sick days have been increased from 6 to 8 days. These sick days are also bankable.
In this case, I consider the offer to be more then reasonable and the fact that they're taking it in stride and demanding more is just totally unacceptable. If they simply fired the lot of them and started a hiring spree that would put public transit on hold for a couple of months, I'd be more then happy to make other arrangements. Considering the current state of the economy and their total disregard for the public, they've taken it way too far this time.
Your thoughts.
Edit: the original publication I got the 80K mark from has recently changed its figures to $45,000 and $52,000
Here's a word from the union president:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr9l8B-Z5Ms
There are however exceptions to this rule. I'd like to bring to the table a current example which I am right in the middle of.
I live in Ottawa, my nation's capital. The public transit here comprises myriad bus routes coupled with a train that runs from north to south. Getting anywhere is rather simple and it is exceptional. I'd also have to say that the people who keep the service running are of exceptionally high caliber. There is seldom an accident as the people behind the wheels of the service are well trained, punctual and dedicated.
Recent salary negotiations were made and unfortunately, as a result, what was offered is simply not enough for the union. They will therefore, more then likely, be striking and thus crippling the city.
Here's an excerpt from an article I've read today regarding the negotiations, the offer and potential outcome:
Ottawa's largest transit union has rejected the city's final contract settlement offer, and with a strike set to start at 12:01 a.m. Wednesday morning, city officials say they have no intention of making another offer.
At a late afternoon press conference Monday, city transit manager Alain Mercier said top officials with the Amalgamated Transit Union Local 279 had rejected a three-year offer with wage increases of three, two and two per cent over three years.
He also said union officials told the city they wouldn't bring the offer to their members and would instead brace for a strike where the impact would be first felt during the Wednesday morning commute.
Mayor Larry O'Brien said city government was "perplexed," and that the city wanted to make sure each union member understands what the offer is because he said he feels it is "very reasonable" considering the grim state of the economy.
Here's the full article:
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/story.html?id=1052073
Now considering the current economic climate and the fact that the average salary of an OCTranspo bus drivers is 80000 to 95000 a year, I'd say that's a pretty awesome deal. There's also the fact that their sick days have been increased from 6 to 8 days. These sick days are also bankable.
In this case, I consider the offer to be more then reasonable and the fact that they're taking it in stride and demanding more is just totally unacceptable. If they simply fired the lot of them and started a hiring spree that would put public transit on hold for a couple of months, I'd be more then happy to make other arrangements. Considering the current state of the economy and their total disregard for the public, they've taken it way too far this time.
Your thoughts.
Edit: the original publication I got the 80K mark from has recently changed its figures to $45,000 and $52,000
Here's a word from the union president:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr9l8B-Z5Ms
Meiz on
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Essential services are not allowed to strike, such as emergency personnel, police, that sort of thing. I guess transit doesn't fall under an essential service.
Law enforcement would be a better example for what you have in mind, methinks. Its pretty damned unethical for law enforcement to strike, IMO.
Unfortunately, some people think that since they are a vital service, they can use that as a bargaining chip, threatening the public to further their own needs, essentially.
See how many books I've read so far in 2010
That's a value judgment. One I'm not really in the mood to explore or challenge. If they've already codified that, then I see no issue at all with the transport employees striking.
I'm not saying whether or not I feel transit should be, just that in this case, if they're striking then they're not an essential service as far as the right to strike is concerned.
The source I found this on: http://www.orleansonline.ca/pages/N2008120902.htm
Yeah, pretty disgusting but mostly that has to be overtime.
COLOR="Blue"]Citation Required[/COLOR
Edit: And no, Meiz, that is not a citation. Show some hard stats or go home.
Yeah this right here is the #1 problem with unions. Too many people in the Union use it as their own personal power playtoy rather than a means by which to avoid getting fucked over by employers.
Don't union members have to have some sort of vote to strike? If I was a transit worker I'd be upset that my union officials just decided I'm suppose to picket and get 1/3rd my usual pay instead of working....seeing as how money is always tight come Christmas.
You did read the whole thing where the union almost unanimously voted down a similar proposal, right?
Yes, they have a vote to give strike authorization to the leadership. (That's actually been a major point with the SAG negotiations going on - will the SAG grant authorization?) This union voted 98% in favor for strike authorization.
In other news, York University in Toronto has been on strike for more than a month now. I feel sorry for those kids just sitting around these days. If it goes longer they could lose a year of their studies. As of now the University and the Union aren't even bargaining. It looks doubtful that it will be settled before the end of the year.
No, I didn't read that part, however my point is still valid. Unions are needed sometimes as a means by which employees can be protected, collectively, from abuse by their employer. Once they move past the point of "prevent abuse" and start using that power to wag the fucking dog, it's time to get rid of them.
As for that 80-90k bit, first of its in Canadian dollars wich until a couple of years ago was as good as US$. secondly as you said a lot of it is due to overtime. that is to say that they get it for driving extra hours, late at night and on the weekends, this is money the drivers can't depend on and is not a part of their regular salary(what is their regular salary?). The Mass transit authorithy could hire more drivers, cut late night and weekend routs and the drivers would have no recourse. There is no law anywhere that states that your boss has to allow you any overtime at all.
Stop complaining about standard negotiations tactics, just because it affects you does not mean your outrage is relevant.
No, I will not stop complaining. I don't particularly care about mass transit in Ontario.
"standard negotiations tactics" when it affects the economy and productivity of an entire region are selfish and unnecessary given the relatively good conditions under which they work.
Have a close look at the word "relatively" in the previous paragraph. Consider what it means.
Not to mention that if it is overtime pay, then you need to remember that someone that is making that is also probably pulling a 60-80 hour workweek, with all the stress and other problems that entails. Simply put, asserting that they're making disproportionate salaries without actual proof to back it up is the same disingenuous bullshit that Reagan pulled in 81.
Translation: If you do a job that someone thinks is "critical" to the economy, just shut up, bend over, think of England, and pray for Vasoline.
I guess you missed the word relatively, despite my pointing it out. English motherfucker, do you speak it?
I'm not saying this particular instance is a "good" strike, I don't know enough about the situation to say that. What I'm saying is that thought like the above sets up a massive double standard when it comes to workers rights and is massively unfair to the people being told they're selfish for expecting decent pay and benefits.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Ah yes, everyone dreams of the charmed life of a bus driver.
I do like your use of the word "relatively." People who work picking up needles at the beach have it relatively easy compared to say, Alaskan Fishermen...
No, you missed my point, which is that you're basically saying "So what if you're getting dicked over, you've got it okay, so shut up." Which is a fucking bullshit stance, and you know it.
Who make 80-90k a year. Do they get to fuck over thousands of people because they want more cookies? No. Selfish, and unnecessary this strike action is.
Except that Meiz has not shown any proof to back up those numbers and there's a venerable tradition of trying to paint union workers as overpaid whiners in order to break them. So there's no reason we should go with that assumption.
As for your critical and relative remark: Any job can be construed as critical if you look at it in context of a larger economy. Starbucks employes? Why if people don't get their morning coffee on their way to work, productivity would drop a whooping 10%(statistics pulled from my ass). Teachers? If students dont get lessons they will fall behind students from India. omgz noes. as for Relative? Bus drivers in Africa drive for only 1 dollar a day and all the sand they can eat. Ottowahaha drivers should be gratefull!!!
Let me reiterate: Just because it affects you does not mean its an exeptional outrage that can't be allowed.
Yes that's a bullshit stance, but that's not what I said. They're not getting "dicked over", not even close.
And you missed the whole "those figures are being pulled wholesale out of someone's ass" discussion in this thread.
Call me skeptical. No, wait, call me in-fucking-credulous. But hey, if you want to believe that, go for it.
Here's my thing... say they actually make a reasonable salary of 40-50k. Then they make another 30k in overtime. You don't think that extra overtime that SOMEONE has to work might be grounds for a complaint or two? Or do you enjoy having exhausted bus drivers barreling around your city?
It doesn't affect me directly. Your choice of jobs to use for comparison are not valid. Public transit should be considered an "essential service".
it's ~$25 an hour or ~52000 a year to start.
They do pull in a lot of OT though.
edit: and that OT puts many of them up into the 80-90 range
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
http://www.workopolis.com/work.aspx?action=Transfer&View=Content/Common/ResourceCentre/RCSalaryGuideView&lang=EN
The typical Hourly Rate for a Bus Driver, Transit and Intercity in Ontario is C$19.13 to C$24.27.
I still stand by my original point, which was: Unions are necessary in cases where workers need protection and collective power to prevent abuse by their employer. This is pretty clearly not the case with this particular Union. They have the right to strike, and we have the right to consider them to be selfish assholes for doing it.
I still think that Public transit should be an essential service.
Huh really, I seem to remember someone talking about York University earlier in this thread, on strike for a month and loads of students possibly losing a year of schooling. Your outrage was duly noted on their behalf.
And my choice of jobs where valid; People lacking knowledge of algebra and having lower productivity as a result of cafein deficency would fuck the economy up. Thats your idea of essential services after all: no strikes if the economy is affected by the strike.
Mine and everyone elses is: No Strikes if people can die as a result of the strike.
Wrong. That's only one part of the purpose Union's serve. They also serve as collective barginers to ensure that, aside from needing protection from abuse, they are also compensated fairly for their work.
From the article:
If they are such an essential service, as you keeping hawing about, why should they not be compensated in a manner similar to other city employee's?
Nice slippery slope.