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How to change stupid policies?
King Boo Hoo
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
A lot of the debate on D&D is all fine and good, but the conclusions we reach often don't reflect the laws.
Partly, this has to do with false information being spread long enough for it to become an accepted fact. A reasonable discussion comparing alcohol and marijuana would show that alcohol is far more damaging in near every way, and if alcohol is completely legal, so should marijuana. However, that's not the case, because a lot of people are very afraid, despite research studies, prevalent use, media exposure, etc.
Partly, this has to do with small-mindedness and an unwillingness to listen to reason. Gay marriage is bad because uhh... God says so. Wait no, we can't say that. Because... marriage is traditionally between a man and a woman, not just religiously. What's that? We don't offer dowries, we don't sell wives, we don't marry at 16 anymore? Well... we can ignore those parts. We should teach evolution in schools! We should let teachers beat students! We should teach abstinence-only! It doesn't matter how much research comes out to the contrary, these people will stick steadfast to their belief, and allow nothing to waver it.
Unfortunately, these stupids make up a big chunk of this country. It's really frustrating, living in an age that values information so much, to see so much progress hindered by those who are unable or unwilling to accept information. What, if anything, do you think can be done to change the minds of some of these people? Is it a hopeless cause, one in which we just need to wait for the old conservatives to die off and have their silly ideas die off with them? Or can we convince them, introduce information to them in less threatening ways, etc.
I personally have little hope for those unwilling or unable to take in information. I don't think something like marijuana can be legalized in one nice Supreme Court lawsuit that rules in favor of "well... duh... fear-mongering and small-mindedness are the only reasons it's been illegal so long, so now it's legal". Instead, I think it'll be a slow crawl, state by state. Decriminilization, medical legalization, abuse of medical legalization allowing near-anyone to use it (CA). More and more magazines and newspapers will openly talk about marijuana, more famous people will openly say they currently use it, etc. It'll become less taboo, more legal, and eventually the government will legalize it once something like 2/3 of the states already have anyway.
Partly, this has to do with false information being spread long enough for it to become an accepted fact. A reasonable discussion comparing alcohol and marijuana would show that alcohol is far more damaging in near every way, and if alcohol is completely legal, so should marijuana. However, that's not the case, because a lot of people are very afraid, despite research studies, prevalent use, media exposure, etc.
Partly, this has to do with small-mindedness and an unwillingness to listen to reason. Gay marriage is bad because uhh... God says so. Wait no, we can't say that. Because... marriage is traditionally between a man and a woman, not just religiously. What's that? We don't offer dowries, we don't sell wives, we don't marry at 16 anymore? Well... we can ignore those parts. We should teach evolution in schools! We should let teachers beat students! We should teach abstinence-only! It doesn't matter how much research comes out to the contrary, these people will stick steadfast to their belief, and allow nothing to waver it.
Unfortunately, these stupids make up a big chunk of this country. It's really frustrating, living in an age that values information so much, to see so much progress hindered by those who are unable or unwilling to accept information. What, if anything, do you think can be done to change the minds of some of these people? Is it a hopeless cause, one in which we just need to wait for the old conservatives to die off and have their silly ideas die off with them? Or can we convince them, introduce information to them in less threatening ways, etc.
I personally have little hope for those unwilling or unable to take in information. I don't think something like marijuana can be legalized in one nice Supreme Court lawsuit that rules in favor of "well... duh... fear-mongering and small-mindedness are the only reasons it's been illegal so long, so now it's legal". Instead, I think it'll be a slow crawl, state by state. Decriminilization, medical legalization, abuse of medical legalization allowing near-anyone to use it (CA). More and more magazines and newspapers will openly talk about marijuana, more famous people will openly say they currently use it, etc. It'll become less taboo, more legal, and eventually the government will legalize it once something like 2/3 of the states already have anyway.
King Boo Hoo on
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Well that was certainly a valuable addition to the discourse.
Anyway, I think a greater emphasis on agile critic thinking skills in schools would help. Of course nobody really knows how to teach critical thinking, much less measure it. And of course any dramatic reform is the school system is going to require eradication of the very entrenched beliefs that these skills are supposed to erode. It's a real catch-22.
Never said it was new, but it would be nice if something constructive could be built out of the conclusions reached by science, or smart people, or even the D&D forum. It's easy to just sit around and complain about how Bible-belt peasants will never actually see the light of reason we shine their way, but it'd be far more productive if we -could- think of something to change our world, rather than just talking about how our world should be.
we now think that x is not bad so x should be allowed and not discriminated against etc etc.
often it takes decades for drastic social change to take place and it is NOT something that will all of a sudden be fine. these changes need to be done slowly and in baby steps lest there is some backlash from moving too fast.
remember you have to get a whole lot of people to agree to change a social norm.
sure you can indoctrinate children and run advertising and sign petitions and demonstrate.... but do so realizing that the only way your goals are going to be realized is from the slow push towards inevitability.
work local think LONG TERM.
I love how you group people who don't think like you. That thinking will get you exactly what you want. Good job on that.
I know MANY people opposed to legalizing drugs that don't believe in God. I'd like some links to these "studies" just to give credibility to your statements. I mean how can you educate me by just calling me stupid? If you're going to sway me then show me.
Thank you. My "smart people" comment was too subtle, I guess.
This thread should be more about cognitive dissonance and less about drugs. There's already a thread for drugs, and it's kinda boring.
For many people, debate and discourse becomes about "winning" and driving home their point while ignoring other valid points or concepts. There are always mitigating factors and multiple energies and influences to drive a policy. Sometimes things aren't as stupid as you think they are. Sometimes it comes down to different priorities, rather than one thing being "stupid" and the alternative not.
Hruka, from your post, you are just as guilty as any of the people who are against your policies. You present your argument as pure fact, not as information to be considered, state that your opponents are fools whose opinions should be ignored, and ask how you can get the job done without having to listen to their opinions.
Right or not, thats not debate and discourse, thats not even trying to persuade someone and nor does it show that you have any higher claim to morals than they since, if you say they are idiots, why would you listen to their point of view? I mean, they would say you are a wide-eyed radical liberal, why should they listen to your point of view? How can they ge their agenda implemented without persuading you? Its the same effect just dressed up in different clothes.
How about people who support the legalization of marijuana and believe in God? They exist, too. Hard to believe because obviously every religious person in the world is an uptight, Bible-thumping, gay-bashing, xenophobic asshole.
Black and white characterizations don't help, even in jest. When you accuse someone else of making that kind of characterization, you piss them off and push the discussion towards the emotional and away from the rational. You don't get to do this and then stand back and claim "they" are being irrational and dumb.
to be fair the op is basically 'what can i do to make those damn conservatives die off so i can have my progressive agenda pushed'
its not exactly unbiased.
I'm sorry, but I'm so tired of the stereotypical religious man. I have a feeling many people here have only experienced religion when someone is shoving it in their faces. Yes, these people exist, but every group has loud and obnoxious people that misrepresent them. I think it's foolish to assume we're all uptight and our only goal is shove The Gospel down your throats when some of us just want to lay low, experience life from all perspectives and thank God for what He has given us.
Fair enough. A lot of the point of the OP (that I want to discuss) is about debunking stereotypes. Still, to make the translation from "Bible-belt peasants" (an ignorant set of people that holds disproportionate amount of voting power in the American Electoral vote system) to "all religious people" isn't fair to the point. There is a *lot* of failed policies pushed by that particular republican political system that don't work and cause net harm to society. The states that voted in the politicians responsible for these policies have a reputation of both irrational clinging to Identity politics and of religion as a means of justification for the "moral" backing for said politics.
The point is that we need, as a people, to shift focus away from the "us vs them" that we see in just about every facet of life, and move more towards the "us".
The answer is that you don't. Like Ninto is saying, ideological commitment overrides factual corrections.
The problem is that people abuse it. God doesn't hate gays, doesn't hate other religions and doesn't hate those who don't believe in Him.
Nartwak: No, it's not a few bad apples. It's people who are mislead. They put way more focus on "Jesus is your saviour and you're going to hell if you don't worship him" than "Jesus loves everyone equally and wants us to do the same."
Sure you do, it just takes a long time. Work to change people's opinions, lobby your Representatives and/or run for office (in a primary) yourself incorporating some of the more egregious stupidity in your platform in order to help raise awareness of it. Eventually things will change.
So you're saying we, as humans, make decisions based on selfish emotions rather than a rational interest in the collective good? And then we try and justify them after the fact?
Shocker.
'zactly. Bad laws (laws aren't policy, exactly, that's more of a how-to-implement thing) get in because people with a bugbear are more interested in getting it pushed through than people without are interested in stopping it. If you want to stop bad policy, you have to be politically active. most people aren't, and there lies the problem. its not that fundies exist, its that they've been more politically active than progressives for a good part of the last decade, particularly in local politics.
Play the game. Democracy is a GIGO system.
Agreed, even with the recent surge of activity people are still not as politically active as they need to be, more often we get people who do very little complaining because nothing is changing.
On a different tangent I mentioned in the pot thread if you truly want it legal you need to discover the reasons various groups are voting against it. Then aggressively move to show them why, both in theory and in practice that while you understand their concerns you are going to do X,Y, and Z about it. Standing out there talking about how pot is less dangerous than alcohol, or how it should be legal for medical usage in a state where it already is do not do you much good. No one cares. Do not tell people why they should vote for it, ask them why they are voting against it. Then adjust your laws to deal with that.
You want to change stupid policies, find out why your proposed change is considered stupid to other people, an change it before it becomes policy.
Yeah, I suppose so. I was wrongly conflating changing public opinion with changing policy, assuming they were the same. I still don't think civic participation would do much to change ossified opinions however.
You don't think we should teach evolution in schools? Or was that a typo?