Seriously Blizz, What The Fuck? (Or, Should We Rethink Torture In Fiction?)

AngelHedgie

Wrath of the Lich King adds a quest where you employ torture to get information.

I'm sorry, but what the fuck were you thinking, Blizz? And the ingame intro to the quest really doesn't help matters:

It is fortunate you're here, <race>.

You see, the Kirin Tor code of conduct frowns upon our taking certain 'extreme' measures - even in desperate times such as these. You, however, as an outsider, are not bound by such restrictions and could take any steps necessary in the retrieval of information.

Do what you must. We need to know where Lady Evanor is being held at once! I'll just busy myself organizing these shelves here. Oh, and here, perhaps you'll find this old thing [torture device] useful...

This is really disquieting. And it seems to be the natural progression that we're seeing in popular media these days. Look at, say, 24, and how the show features the use of "enhanced" interrogations. More importantly, look how said scenes influenced popular opinion on the use of torture. I'm worried that if we see torture represented in popular media in such an antiseptic manner, it's going to continue to break down societal taboos on using it.

durandal4532

That's kind of fucked up. It's a nice sociology experiment though. "10 million people willing to torture in order to find shinier belts."

urahonky

Hmmm. I mean... I am against torture as much as the next guy, but this doesn't seem that bad. I mean, the Lich King is a pretty big dick and pretty evil. Seems like something he would do.

Bama

Yea, I don't see that quest as being particularly outrageous. I mean, how many people do you outright murder in that game?

Nova_C

urahonky wrote: »

Hmmm. I mean... I am against torture as much as the next guy, but this doesn't seem that bad. I mean, the Lich King is a pretty big dick and pretty evil. Seems like something he would do.

Your character is opposed to the Lich King.

Frankly, I saw it as perfectly demonstrating how fucking evil the Alliance was getting (Do the horde also to the torture quests? - Yes that's plural - I'm not sure). There is an undercurrent to all the events that show the Alliance becoming more and more extreme and xenophobic.

I think there's more subtlety there than you give it credit.

Tach

So, Silence of the Lambs, Casino Royale, Leathal Weapon, ecetera are all non-warping views of torture? Or is it causing the downfall of civilization when it's the good guys who do it?

Seriously, it's fiction. It's a game. You sound like Jack Thompson.

Aegis

Yea, it's fiction. If torture by one race fits the canon and it works for a quest, put it in. If it doesn't, don't. If they put it it anyway, it's just sloppy writing.

TheSuperWoot

I don't see how this is any different than when you kill random NPCs in the game. I mean, I remember a horde quest where I went and killed a bunch of lumberjacks. Hell, for all I know they were normal guys just trying to eke out a living.

Mom2Kat

And you have had lots of previous quests wher eyou have to shoot the guy untill he is nearly dead and then he gives up what you needed.

I see no issue with this.

Senshi

Bama wrote: »

Yea, I don't see that quest as being particularly outrageous. I mean, how many people do you outright murder in that game?

This. Here.

It's a game. You're torturing someone for information. Guess what? You've done similar things in all sorts of games--I believe there's been threats and semi-torture in, for example, the Metal Gear Solid series and the Splinter Cell series. Nobody complained about those.

You've also--shock--killed people in those games, and no doubt killed hundreds more in getting to the levels that particular quest requires. It's not a huge deal.

By the way, that's not the only torture quest I've come across. I was doing one earlier that involved taking a brand to leaders of a faction in order to get them to renounce it. Sometimes asking nicely doesn't work, and let's face it: this does, in sort of a twisted way, add to the immersion.

Buttcleft

I, for one, am appalled at the senseless mass murder of virtual animals in the cruel and criminal harvesting of items and materials.

Sentry

Um... the horror of simulated torture in a cartoon video game? Seriously VH, you've gone off the deep end here.

Did you ever play the Punisher video game? or see the movie? This isn't exactly waterboarding simulated Iraqis.

Nova_C

Well, when my Paladin did that quest, it took me out of it. A Paladin would lose their link to The Light if they tortured someone. When my Death Knight did it? Bitch probably was grinnin' the whole time.

durandal4532

Give the man a little credit. The problem isn't "oh no hurting virtual people" it's "why does our popular culture continually insist that torture is the secret cheat code to know everything?"

In reality, torture is counter-productive and useless. In fiction (here, I guess, but man oh man "24"), torture is a magical means of getting all information a bad guy knows in less time than it takes to kneecap his wife.

Slicer

Considering how many parodies Blizzard fits in their games, it doesn't surprise me that they'd parody 24 or something.

Heck, this almost sounds like the interrogation from The Dark Knight (what with the player being an outsider). Though with just the quest text and not the whole context, I could be wrong.

Buttcleft

Torture is not a viable method for gathering information.

however the fear of torture generally is somewhat effective is.

Sentry

I guess a game where torture earned you nothing would be kind of stupid.

Not that this isn't stupid, it's just not "end of the world" stupid.

Besides, this is magic torture, so it might be more effective.

chrono_traveller

Nova_C wrote: »

Well, when my Paladin did that quest, it took me out of it. A Paladin would lose their link to The Light if they tortured someone. When my Death Knight did it? Bitch probably was grinnin' the whole time.

Why did your paladin do the quest then?

And seriously, the Horde quests associated with the undead in Fjord and Dragonblight are openly doing research for chemical warfare.

Part of what makes fiction/fantasy games what they are, is that we (can) do stuff in them without the social/moral limitations that the real world places on things.

BubbaT

Games probably need more torture. A Batman game isn't quite Batman when they don't have a "To get information, start tossing thugs off of rooftops" mission.

Kagera

Just like GTA made killing hookers the cool thing to do?

I'm sorry, it's an RPG game, about a war, with a bunch of bad people in it.

And omg some bad people will do bad things!

Also if this disturbs you the videogame version of The Punisher will make you cry like a fake Native American by a highway.

Buttcleft

Kagera wrote: »

Just like GTA made killing hookers the cool thing to do?

I'm sorry, it's an RPG game, about a war, with a bunch of bad people in it.

And omg some bad people will do bad things!

Also if this disturbs you the videogame version of The Punisher will make you cry like a fake Native American by a highway.

but...but...but but but but but..

but...THINK OF THE VIRTUAL PEOPLE.

Kagera

durandal4532 wrote: »

Give the man a little credit. The problem isn't "oh no hurting virtual people" it's "why does our popular culture continually insist that torture is the secret cheat code to know everything?"

In reality, torture is counter-productive and useless. In fiction (here, I guess, but man oh man "24"), torture is a magical means of getting all information a bad guy knows in less time than it takes to kneecap his wife.

In reality cars don't blow up when you shoot them.

In reality the good guy doesn't always win.

In reality the guy doesn't always get the girl.

In reality Santa Claus isn't real.

This isn't any bigger than those.

Salvation122

Other quests in WoW AngelHedgie finds morally repugnant include Lazy Peons, where, serving as a proxy for management, you beat employees deemed unproductive with a blackjack until they return to work, and The Battle of Hillsbrad (Part 2) where you engage in the wholesale slaughter of civilians during wartime.

I could seriously mock this shit for days but I have to drive to Memphis.

urahonky

Kagera wrote: »

durandal4532 wrote: »

Give the man a little credit. The problem isn't "oh no hurting virtual people" it's "why does our popular culture continually insist that torture is the secret cheat code to know everything?"

In reality, torture is counter-productive and useless. In fiction (here, I guess, but man oh man "24"), torture is a magical means of getting all information a bad guy knows in less time than it takes to kneecap his wife.

In reality cars don't blow up when you shoot them.

In reality the good guy doesn't always win.

In reality the guy doesn't always get the girl.

In reality Santa Claus isn't real.

This isn't any bigger than those.

Mind spoiling that stuff? Jeeze.

Nova_C

chrono_traveller wrote: »

Nova_C wrote: »

Well, when my Paladin did that quest, it took me out of it. A Paladin would lose their link to The Light if they tortured someone. When my Death Knight did it? Bitch probably was grinnin' the whole time.

Why did your paladin do the quest then?

Because it was part of the chain that led to the Nexus quests.

I just wish there was an alternative for classes not likely to engage in torture, like Paladins. And another alternative for classes to take pleasure in it like Death Knights and Warlocks (That is, the option of more torture).

Medopine

We should rethink torture in real life and get rid of that before we start worrying about a WoW quest.

Kagera

Nova_C wrote: »

chrono_traveller wrote: »

Nova_C wrote: »

Well, when my Paladin did that quest, it took me out of it. A Paladin would lose their link to The Light if they tortured someone. When my Death Knight did it? Bitch probably was grinnin' the whole time.

Why did your paladin do the quest then?

Because it was part of the chain that led to the Nexus quests.

I just wish there was an alternative for classes not likely to engage in torture, like Paladins. And another alternative for classes to take pleasure in it like Death Knights and Warlocks (That is, the option of more torture).

Well as Arthas showed in Warcraft 3 Paladins can still be dicks.

Zek

Given that it's WoW, I assume using the torture device on someone just causes him to yell and then give you a quest dialog. There are much worse games to be complaining about...

KalTorak

I'm playing through God of War 2 for the first time, and I just bashed two different priests heads in until they read me some magic words off a book. Then I smashed their heads open on said book and used their blood for a magic spell. I imagine I'll be doing it a third time.

Nova_C

Kagera wrote: »

Nova_C wrote: »

chrono_traveller wrote: »

Nova_C wrote: »

Well, when my Paladin did that quest, it took me out of it. A Paladin would lose their link to The Light if they tortured someone. When my Death Knight did it? Bitch probably was grinnin' the whole time.

Why did your paladin do the quest then?

Because it was part of the chain that led to the Nexus quests.

I just wish there was an alternative for classes not likely to engage in torture, like Paladins. And another alternative for classes to take pleasure in it like Death Knights and Warlocks (That is, the option of more torture).

Well as Arthas showed in Warcraft 3 Paladins can still be dicks.

.....

Yeah, and he became the Lich King. I mean, if there was a quest chain for Paladins that ended up turning you into a massive, extremely powerful dude rocking kickass armor and ruling armies of the undead, I'd be cool with that.

But there isn't.

Kagera

Nova_C wrote: »

Kagera wrote: »

Nova_C wrote: »

chrono_traveller wrote: »

Nova_C wrote: »

Well, when my Paladin did that quest, it took me out of it. A Paladin would lose their link to The Light if they tortured someone. When my Death Knight did it? Bitch probably was grinnin' the whole time.

Why did your paladin do the quest then?

Because it was part of the chain that led to the Nexus quests.

I just wish there was an alternative for classes not likely to engage in torture, like Paladins. And another alternative for classes to take pleasure in it like Death Knights and Warlocks (That is, the option of more torture).

Well as Arthas showed in Warcraft 3 Paladins can still be dicks.

.....

Yeah, and he became the Lich King. I mean, if there was a quest chain for Paladins that ended up turning you into a massive, extremely powerful dude rocking kickass armor and ruling armies of the undead, I'd be cool with that.

But there isn't.

Arthas was a dick before he was a Lich King. Had he not gone to Northrend he'd still have been a Paladin and a dick. His powers didn't magically disappear once he started slaughtering innocents and fellow Paladins.

Also that's in the NEXT expansion: Wrath of the Jerkasses

Medopine

Nova just RP that your character got possessed by the Scarlet Crusade for a bit :P

Sentry

You know... prior to the WotLK release, Blizzard mentioned that they were going to try and make certain choices sort of like what Arthas had to make. Unfortunately, given the nature of WOW, the choice is usually do the quest or don't do the quest. But the idea was to try and warp your reality of right and wrong.

However, if this gets your goat, the Culling of Strathholm probably won't sit well with you either. For me, I was just disappointed that, in the Culling, you walk right past the orphanage and don't even stop in.

Medopine

This is made up for by the fact there is an achievement for eating sweets and food in front of an orphan during Children's Week

Quid

AngelHedgie wrote: »

Wrath of the Lich King adds a quest where you employ torture to get information.

I've poisoned people in that game picked for the experiment based on their race.

Stop being outraged by everything everywhere ever.

PikaPuff

Skinning.

Quid- Don't forget, you gassed them.

Nova_C

Medopine wrote: »

This is made up for by the fact there is an achievement for eating sweets and food in front of an orphan during Children's Week

REALLY? I need to get that achievement....

Anyway, I don't RP. Nerds, all of you. Lamers.

bowen

Hedge reminds me of that crazy nut in any forum who insists on spelling America as Amerika.

Dman

Half of the quests in Wrath are spoofs. I wouldn't be surprised if this quest was put in there to make fun of certain countries *cough cough* that are publicly against torture but then secretly allow it to be used. Seriously. It's a game.

Octoparrot

How do we not know [torture device] wasn't really just a golden lasso?

durandal4532

Hey I have an idea, let's make the conversation in this thread not relate to WoW in any way whatsoever anymore, and instead relate to public perception of torture as reflected in popular media and what we can do to change that perception. Because jesus I don't want to talk about WoW anymore, I get that enough in [chat].