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My stupid doorbell, and the ether that powers it
RoundBoy
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So I have the typical push button at the front door, and a ringer unit on the first floor. Since my basement has been finished with teh hotness, we spend most of our time down there, but can't hear the doorbell.
So, I got a bell, and I hooked it up to the existing transformer.
The transformer is a typical 120v to 16v unit, and my new bell uses 16v. I am assuming my current doorbell uses the same (its ass old, but its been hooked up for a while)
I have it hooked up correctly as a button press rings both bells, but it seems my original doorbell is weak in comparison to what it was. Common sense tells me that I now have 2 devices going for the same voltage, and that is causing issues.. but many interweb posts have me thinking that I should be perfectly fine to do this.
So i ask.. Can you hook two units up to a single 16v transformer, or do I need a special multi-output transformer (or two ?)
So, I got a bell, and I hooked it up to the existing transformer.
The transformer is a typical 120v to 16v unit, and my new bell uses 16v. I am assuming my current doorbell uses the same (its ass old, but its been hooked up for a while)
I have it hooked up correctly as a button press rings both bells, but it seems my original doorbell is weak in comparison to what it was. Common sense tells me that I now have 2 devices going for the same voltage, and that is causing issues.. but many interweb posts have me thinking that I should be perfectly fine to do this.
So i ask.. Can you hook two units up to a single 16v transformer, or do I need a special multi-output transformer (or two ?)
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Former will probably cause it to be screwy no matter what, the latter would make it screwy if it doesn't have enough current to power both at once.
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Both bells are 16v. I think ]-[arlequin has it correct - Not enough current for everything. Which is kind of odd, because I see transformers for 16v, or i see transformers for multi voltage (24v 16v 8v)
Edit: WTF? this thread already comes up in a google search. I clicked thinking "This guy has the same issue i do"
Librarians harbor a terrible secret. Find it.
No, no, them both being 16v is what you want. Don't mix voltages. Make sure they're wired in parallel (each has its own + and - line) and not chained off one another.
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1) You did the connection in series, not parallel.
2) You did not use an adequate gauge of wire (too small a wire = too much lost power).
3) Lousy re-connecting. Though I have yet to see doorbell wire getting spliced - I'm not sure it's a recommended thing.
4) The transformer isn't rated for a high enough power output. Note power, not voltage.
I think off the start it will be #4.
But, the solutions would be:
1) Wire it up properly! 16 volts across one load will not equal 16 volts across two successive loads. You will have 8 and 8 (if they are completely identical). This website has what you need on the diagram front to get you started if this is what you did wrong. You want a parallel set up.
2) This would suck because you'll have to rerun the wire. But basically, the smaller the wire, the greater the resistance and the more power you will lose. Doorbell wire we buy at the wholesaler is typically 18 gauge, but I've seen up to #14AWG used in doorbell circuits (great distances though). This shouldn't really be a problem if it's a small distance that you had to add on, say 10m tops. Don't rush out and buy thicker wire thinking this is the problem until you're sure, it's hard to buy a run of wire without buying a whole roll. Also, you could run several of what you've already run in parallel and then use the multiple wires as a single conductor. If you use two of the same wire, it's like using three wire sizes larger on the AWG scale. If you use four of the same wire, it's like using six wire sizes larger. I've never had to do this, but in theory it should work. If you bought #18/5 AWG (18 size, 5 wires per cable), you should be able to try this out already without any additional wire pulling.
3) Like I said, when you took it apart and put it together, you probably didn't do as good a job putting it back together as you think. I don't know for sure though. We don't usually splice doorbell wire (splice = putting it under the blue plastic caps) in new construction. And given that it will be such a delicate wire, it's pretty easy to overwork and the snap. Copper does become brittle as you work it more, be careful of that.
4) This is closer to what the problem is I think. Basically, the transformer will put out 16v, but it will only put out so much power. Find out what the power rating is for the transformer. You will find it is probably enough for one of your doorbells but not for two. Power should be down in Watts or kiloWatts. To find out the power of your doorbells, multiply the current the bell takes by the volts (16v in this case). The multiply by two. This will probably be bigger than your transformer's rating. You'll have to buy a more powerful transformer. I have no idea what it will cost. Be careful when installing the new one, getting zapped sucks.
Good luck! Let me know if you get it fixed.
You are awesome. The Transformer is a few years old (I replaced it when i moved in) and its 16w 10VA
I don't know what Bell 1 & 2 Need. Bell 1 is a 2 tone chime.. a bar hits one tone on power, then another. bell 2 is literally a bell with a ringer, i doubt it needs much power.
I am wired as such:
Transformer neg --> Button --> Bell 1 & Bell 2 (splice)
Transformer Pos --> splice of bell 1 & bell2 & button.
I read this as power comes from the trans to the button. On button press, it closes the circuit and power hits both bells at once.
The OLD ass wiring to bell 1 looks to be 14g .. and the wiring to the bell 2 is 'Doorbell wire' which is probably about 20 --22 g. Its old wire, but solid wire.. my splices are splices with a wire nut, and pretty tight (as much as can be with such a disparity in wire gauge)
Part of the problem is that the button is in the front of the house... the transformer and bell 2 are all the way in the back of the house in the basement, and bell1 is on the floor directly above, but across the house from the transformer. All splices are made within 2' of the transformer.
I plan on rerunning proper wire to everywhere.. but that is a rainy day project. i thought i could get away with a quick addition of a bell for the basement..
EDIT: This makes it a power issue? 16volts is fine, but 10 Va isn't enough power for both.. I need to switch it out with a higher amperage.
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Transformer Negative --> "Negative" Button terminal
"Positive" Button terminal --> "Negative" Bells 1+2 terminals (You can splice this as you wish)
"Positive" Bells Terminals --> Transformer Positive
The button should interrupt the wire between the bells and the negative (could be positive I guess, small voltage so not dangerous) terminal of the transformer. Right now it seems that you're splicing your button in to both sides of the transformer.
When I say positive and negative in my explanation, I mean basically this: Everything will have one side that is negative with respect to the other. In this case, every electrical device has two "sides." A side "closer" and "further" from the negative terminal. The side closer is "negative." The further is "positive."
Draw it out if you need to.
I'll try to find out more about the transformer tomorrow... It would help if you knew for sure what the doorbells are rated for. Every appliance has either an amperage or power rating.
But try and make certain that it is all hooked up correctly.
No, I'm afraid that this is extremely unlikely to work as you'd expect. For it to work, two conditions need to be fulfilled:
1.) That both doorbells present a purely resistive load
2.) That both doorbells present the same identical resistive load
Given that both doorbells are different makes/models, you cannot reasonably expect that both doorbells present the same identical resistive load. This is assuming that they present a resistive load in the first place, which may not be true, depending on construction.
I'll make a poor mspaint drawing when I get home. But from the outset, it seems that if i removed the 2 bells, my doorbell would form its own loop to the transformer.. ie i have a wire coming in and a wire going out.
Power flows from the neg terminal (?) so the path should be Transformer --> doorbell --> bells and the neutral path should return via both bells to the transformer.
I based my current wiring on the old wire scheme that was there... not saying that it was correct. But from my last post, it seems that the 10 Va output isn't sufficient to power 2 bells, i need a 30 Va or so.
In fact, they are labeling 10Va as single chime / 30Va for multiple chimes.. .
Librarians harbor a terrible secret. Find it.
No info about the transformer, forgot to ask the guy who'd know. But do some research on your bells and transformer, the power ratings wont' add up I think. Can't do much more for ya unless you have those numbers.
I'll draw it up tonight.. got in late last night. The bell offers up no power ratings, other then the 16v needed. Lets look at it the other way.. has 10Va ever been enough to power a bell and a chime ?
Librarians harbor a terrible secret. Find it.
If he was shorting the circuit, the transformer would be heating up a lot, check that.
Troubleshoot list
- Remove new buzzer and check if sound is changed on old buzzer (might be in your head)
- Check splice, it should look like this a # sign denotes a splice or connection, B, R, are your colours, and Bz1 and Bz2 are your buzzers
Button #
R
#--Bz1----#
B
# l l l
l #_Bz2___l l
B l
l___Bside__#Xformer#Rside____________l
If you can figure out the diagram above and relate it to how the wire is pulled, you should be good.
I is an electrician man.
Tell me which wire is pulled where first and ill walk you through the actual splice if the diagram makes no sense.
EDIT: Goddamnit i'll draw a picture and put it up on photoshack. Stupid forums murdering my wire schematic!
10va is plenty for a chime. its probably running at like, .3 amps which gives us 30 voltsish available.