LSAT

fightinfilipino · November 2006

good lord this is probably the most difficult test i've ever had to tackle in my life.

i'm currently enrolled in a practice course for the LSAT (TestWell), and it's teaching me some good things. but are there any other little things i can do to improve my chances of doing well on the test? i seem to have a slight bit of test anxiety that clouds my ability to see important details or, in the case of the puzzle sections, important puzzle links.

so any of you taken the test? how have you dealt with test anxiety? and do you otherwise have any neat little things you do that help in addition to studying and practice?

kaliyama · November 2006

i've never heard of testwell..if you don't see improvement and really want to do well, consider taking one of the nationally recognized ones lke testmasters or blueprint. (kaplan is often bleh.) but kaplan's LSAT books are pretty good. IMO, don't go to law school if you're getting under 160 unless you are rich. but i'll spare you that discussion unless you want to PM.

Thanatos · November 2006

kaliyama wrote:

i've never heard of testwell..if you don't see improvement and really want to do well, consider taking one of the nationally recognized ones lke testmasters or blueprint. (kaplan is often bleh.) but kaplan's LSAT books are pretty good. IMO, don't go to law school if you're getting under 160 unless you are rich. but i'll spare you that discussion unless you want to PM.

Really?

I pulled a 165. It was the 92nd percentile. Should I not even be thinking about it?

MrBigmuscles · November 2006

I have heard that the absolute baseline is 150. If you cannot get that, look into a different line of work. If you get > 150, then you will be able to get in somewhere, just not a tier 1 or 2 school.

The thing about the LSAT is unlike a lot of standardized tests it is a pretty good predictor of future law school grades. disclosure - I have been practice testing and averaging around 155-160 so I'm not exactly a super genius at this either. I am using Powerscore and Princeton Review materials.

Vincent Grayson · November 2006

Thanatos wrote:

kaliyama wrote:

i've never heard of testwell..if you don't see improvement and really want to do well, consider taking one of the nationally recognized ones lke testmasters or blueprint. (kaplan is often bleh.) but kaplan's LSAT books are pretty good. IMO, don't go to law school if you're getting under 160 unless you are rich. but i'll spare you that discussion unless you want to PM.

Really?

I pulled a 165. It was the 92nd percentile. Should I not even be thinking about it?

165 isn't bad at all, you won't get into Yale or Harvard, but assuming your GPA is good, you should be able to hit a mid-tier school with that.

Hell, I knew a guy that was going to law school with a 154, but he dropped out, and was kind of an idiot, so he probably shouldn't have been going.

I'm still a number of years out from finishing my BA, so I won't be taking it for a while, but I'm picking up some books soon, because I refuse to accept anything less than the 99th percentile when the time comes.

deadonthestreet · November 2006

Thanatos wrote:

kaliyama wrote:

i've never heard of testwell..if you don't see improvement and really want to do well, consider taking one of the nationally recognized ones lke testmasters or blueprint. (kaplan is often bleh.) but kaplan's LSAT books are pretty good. IMO, don't go to law school if you're getting under 160 unless you are rich. but i'll spare you that discussion unless you want to PM.

Really?

I pulled a 165. It was the 92nd percentile. Should I not even be thinking about it?

I got the exact same score, hi5.

The best way to get good at the LSAT is to just practice. Every time you take the test it gets easier. Just keep practicing and you'll get better. All I did was buy a little $12 book and went through it, and it helped immensely.

naporeon · November 2006

My answer, and by no means is it for everyone, was to sleep for only two hours before the test, and then get totally juiced on Rockstar. The LSAT is actually a pretty short test, and my method had the effect of achieving something just short of a dissociative state; I answered all of the questions more or less on intuition (particularly the "Analytical Reasoning" portion), without "overthinking" anything, and I have virtually no memory of the test itself...except that there was some sort of motorcycle rally for a hospital's toy drive right outside our test room, and they had to delay part of our test.

I will say that the unscored written portion was certainly a little strange to read afterward, but still essentially representative of my normal writing and reasoning styles.

I did exceptionally well, for the record. I don't believe in number dropping, however, so I won't.

Vincent Grayson · November 2006

naporeon wrote:

My answer, and by no means is it for everyone, was to sleep for only two hours before the test, and then get totally juiced on Rockstar. The LSAT is actually a pretty short test, and my method had the effect of achieving something just short of a dissociative state; I answered all of the questions more or less on intuition (particularly the "Analytical Reasoning" portion), without "overthinking" anything, and I have virtually no memory of the test itself...except that there was some sort of motorcycle rally for a hospital's toy drive right outside our test room, and they had to delay part of our test.

I will say that the unscored written portion was certainly a little strange to read afterward, but still essentially representative of my normal writing and reasoning styles.

I did exceptionally well, for the record. I don't believe in number dropping, however, so I won't.

Please do, as I'm genuinely curious. Is it true what they say about the writing portion being essentially ignored by most schools? (what with it being unscored and all)

naporeon · November 2006

I don't believe that it's ignored, exactly...but it really depends on where you're applying to. As I'm sure you know, some schools (particularly those on the East Coast) tend to weight the LSAT slightly higher than those on the West Coast, but even then, there is dramatic variation between schools. Almost all schools weight the test higher than any other variable in the admissions process. Add to this the fact that with most schools in, say, the largely-mythological "Top 15," the distribution of most applicants is within a single percentile, and I would say that the impact of the written portion is in fact neglible. I believe that written statements submitted with applications are considered far more carefully.

t Vincent Grayson I won't say exactly what I got, but here is the rough area:
[spoiler:eb78cab028]> 175[/spoiler:eb78cab028]

Vincent Grayson · November 2006

naporeon wrote:

I don't believe that it's ignored, exactly...but it really depends on where you're applying to. As I'm sure you know, some schools (particularly those on the East Coast) tend to weight the LSAT slightly higher than those on the West Coast, but even then, there is dramatic variation between schools. Almost all schools weight the test higher than any other variable in the admissions process. Add to this the fact that with most schools in, say, the largely-mythological "Top 15," the distribution of most applicants is within a single percentile, and I would say that the impact of the written portion is in fact neglible. I believe that written statements submitted with applications are considered far more carefully.

t Vincent Grayson I won't say exactly what I got, but here is the rough area:
[spoiler:4023897fea]> 175[/spoiler:4023897fea]

Nice, that's what I'm aiming for (and I know damn well I can do it). Where are you going/planning to go?

naporeon · November 2006

Vincent Grayson wrote:

Nice, that's what I'm aiming for (and I know damn well I can do it). Where are you going/planning to go?

I had planned to go to NYU or Columbia, depending on which school my--now ex--girlfriend took her Molecular & Cellular Biology postdoc position at. She chose NYU, and I chose Columbia, but it ended up being a moot point; I was given a rather large promotion at work (I work for a joint IT/Programming "swing" team at the Statistical Center for HIV/AIDS Research & Prevention, part of Seattle's Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center), and ended up deciding to stay here instead. The breakup had something to do with the decision, obviously, but this is a ridiculously good job...and I totally lucked into it.

If I decide to get my JD, it will be in a year or two, at Boalt Hall, focusing on Intellectual Property law. I'm more of a West Coast guy at heart.

Vincent Grayson · November 2006

Sounds awesome. So there's no issues with waiting after taking the LSAT? Is there any kind of timeframe after which you need to retake it, or will your score pretty much stand until/unless the test is altered in a significant way?

edit: I ask because I was reading through Scott Turow's "One L" the other day, and he mentioned the test being out of 800, which obviously is no longer true.

naporeon · November 2006

Vincent Grayson wrote:

Sounds awesome. So there's no issues with waiting after taking the LSAT? Is there any kind of timeframe after which you need to retake it, or will your score pretty much stand until/unless the test is altered in a significant way?

I believe that LSAT scores are valid for three years. I could be totally mistaken, however.

Raggaholic · November 2006

naporeon wrote:

Vincent Grayson wrote:

Sounds awesome. So there's no issues with waiting after taking the LSAT? Is there any kind of timeframe after which you need to retake it, or will your score pretty much stand until/unless the test is altered in a significant way?

I believe that LSAT scores are valid for three years. I could be totally mistaken, however.

I believe the scores are valid forever, it depends on the school for how far back they will accept them.

For instance, I had to go to law school when I did because the school I was going to (IU) wouldn't take them more than three years old. Other schools would have.

kaliyama · November 2006

Thanatos wrote:

kaliyama wrote:

i've never heard of testwell..if you don't see improvement and really want to do well, consider taking one of the nationally recognized ones lke testmasters or blueprint. (kaplan is often bleh.) but kaplan's LSAT books are pretty good. IMO, don't go to law school if you're getting under 160 unless you are rich. but i'll spare you that discussion unless you want to PM.

Really?

I pulled a 165. It was the 92nd percentile. Should I not even be thinking about it?

Er...I said if you got under 160, not above. :P I definately scored south of 170. You are unlikely to be making the wisest investment if you are going $100,000 into debt for a school whose average salary out of school is $60-80,000 and, if they are poorly ranked, they probably don't have a good loan forgiveness program.

If I was in the position of the guy who got the 175+, my take on it would be to go to the highest-ranked school that would give me a full ride, which would probably end up being a duke, northwestern or georgetown, and then do what I wanted afterwards instead of having to take an awful 80-hr-wk job for low six figure pay to get rid of loans.

If you have lots of $$ and just want to be a lawyer, there are plenty of schools who will be glad to take your money, but those are bad investments on your cash. The problem is some people so desperately want to be a lawyer that they will get themselves in debt and not have a good, rewarding job at the end to get out of it.

Premier kakos · November 2006

Try not to take the LSAT more than once too. From what I understand, most law schools will average your results, rather than take the most recent one.

Thanatos · November 2006

Premier kakos wrote:

Try not to take the LSAT more than once too. From what I understand, most law schools will average your results, rather than take the most recent one.

Yeah, that's what I was told, too.

fightinfilipino · November 2006

Thanatos wrote:

Premier kakos wrote:

Try not to take the LSAT more than once too. From what I understand, most law schools will average your results, rather than take the most recent one.

Yeah, that's what I was told, too.

i've actually heard that this is one of the things that vary by law school as well.

you can go to your interview and explain that your lower score "wasn't representative" or something. depends on the interviewer i suppose.

anyways, i'm practicing a hell of a lot, so that's good. i don't think i'll do the two hours of sleep thing,but thanks for the suggestion

on a related note, my sister was just accepted to Georgetown law. her LSAT score was definitely on the lower end, so i guess that makes things a little hopeful right?

Deusfaux · November 2006

MrBigmuscles wrote:

The thing about the LSAT is unlike a lot of standardized tests it is a pretty good predictor of future law school grades.

bullshit.

I have historically done extremely well on these sorts of exams and tests, but ill be the first to admit i dont have the biggest drive when it comes to schoolwork so i really dont see how that would automaticalyl translate to good grades

good grades on tests maybe.

kaliyama · November 2006

Deusfaux wrote:

MrBigmuscles wrote:

The thing about the LSAT is unlike a lot of standardized tests it is a pretty good predictor of future law school grades.

bullshit.

I have historically done extremely well on these sorts of exams and tests, but ill be the first to admit i dont have the biggest drive when it comes to schoolwork so i really dont see how that would automaticalyl translate to good grades

good grades on tests maybe.

Law school classes are usually graded the following way: you have one big test at the end of the semester that lasts 3-24 hours and tests you on everything you learned during that semester. this is why LSATs more strongly predict success in law school than grades.

Deusfaux · November 2006

hmmm.. no group projects or presentations or anything like that?

naporeon · November 2006

kaliyama wrote:

If I was in the position of the guy who got the 175+, my take on it would be to go to the highest-ranked school that would give me a full ride, which would probably end up being a duke, northwestern or georgetown, and then do what I wanted afterwards instead of having to take an awful 80-hr-wk job for low six figure pay to get rid of loans.

You know, it's funny that you mention that. Northwestern was the best (and first) school to offer a full ride; I think that my parents might have framed some of their letters.

Before settling on NYU or Columbia, Northwestern was a frontrunner. I also strongly considered a smaller, less well-regarded school, like Santa Clara University; the main considerations there were the location (SCU meets my "50-mile" criterion), as well as the fact that they were stronger in the field I want to study (almost always "Top 10," according the US News rankings). Despite my decision to postpone law school indefinitely, I agree with kaliyama 100%: If you go to law school just to become a lawyer, at least pick a school that will not leave you in immense debt and struggling to find remunerative work. Much better to pick a middle-of-the-road school that will pay you to go there.

Oh, the median private practice incomes for first-year graduates of Northwestern and Santa Clara? ~$125,000/yr, at the time...the same at both schools.

Vincent Grayson · November 2006

fightinfilipino wrote:

Thanatos wrote:

Premier kakos wrote:

Try not to take the LSAT more than once too. From what I understand, most law schools will average your results, rather than take the most recent one.

Yeah, that's what I was told, too.

i've actually heard that this is one of the things that vary by law school as well.

you can go to your interview and explain that your lower score "wasn't representative" or something. depends on the interviewer i suppose.

anyways, i'm practicing a hell of a lot, so that's good. i don't think i'll do the two hours of sleep thing,but thanks for the suggestion

on a related note, my sister was just accepted to Georgetown law. her LSAT score was definitely on the lower end, so i guess that makes things a little hopeful right?

I think I saw somewhere that the ABA changed the rules, and that now, only your highest LSAT score gets reported, if you've taken more than one. I might've misread though, it sounded like it was a recent change (like, earlier this year)

deadonthestreet · November 2006

Deusfaux wrote:

hmmm.. no group projects or presentations or anything like that?

In general, no.

Every once in a while a class will have 10% of the grade based on a paper. But for the most part, everything is one three to four hour final exam.

Vincent Grayson · November 2006

deadonthestreet wrote:

Deusfaux wrote:

hmmm.. no group projects or presentations or anything like that?

In general, no.

Every once in a while a class will have 10% of the grade based on a paper. But for the most part, everything is one three to four hour final exam.

My god. Suddenly, I'm so much more excited about law school. Test-taking is my forte, out of class projects and homework are pretty much the sole reason I did poorly in high school.

Ein · November 2006

Man.

I just took mine on Oct 30th. Got a 159, which I'm not too pleased with, as I thought I would end up with something better.

All I can say is that the books I practiced from ranged wildly in difficulty, from what I saw. The Kaplan books I used seem spot-on for the type of difficulty questions you will be getting on the actual test, in hindsight. Some of the other books made the practice tests a bit too easy, I think.

Vincent Grayson · November 2006

JamSessionEin wrote:

Man.

I just took mine on Oct 30th. Got a 159, which I'm not too pleased with, as I thought I would end up with something better.

All I can say is that the books I practiced from ranged wildly in difficulty, from what I saw. The Kaplan books I used seem spot-on for the type of difficulty questions you will be getting on the actual test, in hindsight. Some of the other books made the practice tests a bit too easy, I think.

There are two Kaplan books, no? I was reading one in Borders the other day that swore it was only "hard" problems, but it mentioned there being a second book with more instruction, and easier stuff.

Ein · November 2006

Vincent Grayson wrote:

JamSessionEin wrote:

Man.

I just took mine on Oct 30th. Got a 159, which I'm not too pleased with, as I thought I would end up with something better.

All I can say is that the books I practiced from ranged wildly in difficulty, from what I saw. The Kaplan books I used seem spot-on for the type of difficulty questions you will be getting on the actual test, in hindsight. Some of the other books made the practice tests a bit too easy, I think.

There are two Kaplan books, no? I was reading one in Borders the other day that swore it was only "hard" problems, but it mentioned there being a second book with more instruction, and easier stuff.

I also took the course, so I can't say in particular which ones are available. I know it wasn't the ones with just the 'hard' problems. I can say that I also bought a book of.. what the hell, I think it was simply called 'Ten Practice LSATs' and the thing was much easier than the Kaplan work, and I think it got me a bit overconfident because on the practices out of those I was easily going in excess of 170. When I actually got to the test, I was a bit distressed to discover all of this.

Also, fellas. They don't average your LSATs anymore. I went to a Law Forum up in New York a few weeks ago and categorically asked every law school whether or not they averaged the LSATs or took the highest, and they all unanimously said that with the new ABA guidelines they are now simply taking your highest score.

I have a feeling I'll be retaking mine in Feb.

kaliyama · November 2006

naporeon wrote:

kaliyama wrote:

If I was in the position of the guy who got the 175+, my take on it would be to go to the highest-ranked school that would give me a full ride, which would probably end up being a duke, northwestern or georgetown, and then do what I wanted afterwards instead of having to take an awful 80-hr-wk job for low six figure pay to get rid of loans.

You know, it's funny that you mention that. Northwestern was the best (and first) school to offer a full ride; I think that my parents might have framed some of their letters.

Before settling on NYU or Columbia, Northwestern was a frontrunner. I also strongly considered a smaller, less well-regarded school, like Santa Clara University; the main considerations there were the location (SCU meets my "50-mile" criterion), as well as the fact that they were stronger in the field I want to study (almost always "Top 10," according the US News rankings). Despite my decision to postpone law school indefinitely, I agree with kaliyama 100%: If you go to law school just to become a lawyer, at least pick a school that will not leave you in immense debt and struggling to find remunerative work. Much better to pick a middle-of-the-road school that will pay you to go there.

Oh, the median private practice incomes for first-year graduates of Northwestern and Santa Clara? ~$125,000/yr, at the time...the same at both schools.

Not going to law school if you have other options that will make you happy is probably a really, really good decision in general; a lot of people that get that high of an LSAT score just think they should go because of it, so hats off to naporeon.

I think SCU would have been a good choice for you (though probably not as compared to northwestern) because it sounds like you have a science background and want to do IP. Santa Clara has a really good reputation for that. But let me caution people: DON'T BELIEVE CAREER SERVICES' INCOME STATS.

I have a feeling what SCU did there is that they break down private practice by firm size--so 'median income for people working for a firm with 300+ lawyers' or something; any firm that big is the big leveraged firm that pays that much. What they're not saying is that very, very few law students from SCU are taking those jobs, and of those who are most are probably IP. Students who do very badly usually end up having to take a low-end public service job.

So those numbers get massaged pretty heavily. If you go to a top 10 school you can sleep through class and get $, if you want it. But at a place like SCU, you have to be probably top 10% OR have the science background to pass the patent bar to aim for that.

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