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Boss telling me not to use PTO
Xobni
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So I got this e-mail today from my boss stating that people were abusing scheduled and unscheduled time-off and if it continues repercussions will occur possibly leading to termination; the e-mail was sent to the entire department I work in. I've only had one unscheduled time-off day in the last year, so I wasn't worried about that, but the note about abusing scheduled time-off confused me so I went to get more information. Since I get about three weeks of PTO a year (broken between vacation, personal, and sick days) I was a little unsure on how it would be abused. I was told that, from "management's perspective," we were scheduled to work 40 hours a week and that's how many hours we should be working. I was given a quick lecture about how in this economy lots of people are looking for jobs and that if we don't want to work 40 hours every week the Company won't have trouble finding someone who does. (I want to note now that I feel I am a good worker and I have not had any disciplinary actions taken against me or discussions about poor working habits with any job I've had - though I haven't had too many!)
I took a few days off early this month because my PTO time reset and I wanted to use the time I had left - that seemed to be the normal thing to do. However, I've got this foot problem and I want to go to the doctor in a couple of weeks to take care of it. I was told to try to get an appointment when I'm not scheduled to work. I'm scheduled to work 8 - 5 and all the doctors' associated with my HMO also work only during the days. When I brought this up I was told that taking two hours off would probably be OK but I should "watch my time so it doesn't look bad." I suggested that I could come in early or stay late throughout the week to make up the time but I was told that the reports the managers get will only show what happened during my 8 - 5 shift. At any case, I'm going to the doctor - Oops, I got a little off topic.
What bothers me is the notion that I'm scheduled to work 40 hours so that's how many hours I should work. I mean, I can accept that, but why would my boss say that knowing that the Company gives us PTO? I mean, are they allowed to encourage us not use it? It's not as if I'm asking to use all my PTO at once... So my questions are: 1) should I do anything about this? (bare in mind I don't want to lose my job or get my boss pissed off at me) 2) am I being a bitch and should I just not use PTO time except for absolute emergencies?
If it's useful, I work in an office doing stuff with medical claims. It's incredibly boring but it's decent pay. I've been quietly looking for a better job for the past few weeks; it's been slowly searching.
I took a few days off early this month because my PTO time reset and I wanted to use the time I had left - that seemed to be the normal thing to do. However, I've got this foot problem and I want to go to the doctor in a couple of weeks to take care of it. I was told to try to get an appointment when I'm not scheduled to work. I'm scheduled to work 8 - 5 and all the doctors' associated with my HMO also work only during the days. When I brought this up I was told that taking two hours off would probably be OK but I should "watch my time so it doesn't look bad." I suggested that I could come in early or stay late throughout the week to make up the time but I was told that the reports the managers get will only show what happened during my 8 - 5 shift. At any case, I'm going to the doctor - Oops, I got a little off topic.
What bothers me is the notion that I'm scheduled to work 40 hours so that's how many hours I should work. I mean, I can accept that, but why would my boss say that knowing that the Company gives us PTO? I mean, are they allowed to encourage us not use it? It's not as if I'm asking to use all my PTO at once... So my questions are: 1) should I do anything about this? (bare in mind I don't want to lose my job or get my boss pissed off at me) 2) am I being a bitch and should I just not use PTO time except for absolute emergencies?
If it's useful, I work in an office doing stuff with medical claims. It's incredibly boring but it's decent pay. I've been quietly looking for a better job for the past few weeks; it's been slowly searching.
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Even if that's legal where you are, that's still really fucked up. I would be looking for a new job, bad economy or no.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I haven't been happy with my job for a few months now, this just seems to be one more reason to leave. I think I need to start looking for a better job A LOT harder!
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What's a redundancy selection criteria marking point? And what are the people being selected for? Sorry, it's been a long day and I'm not really sure what you're talking about.
DragonPup,
Actually I was the one that suggested I could come in early or stay late. My boss said that wouldn't matter. I don't really want to say the name of where I work since I know a couple co-workers read PA (and like many offices, drama runs wild where I work). It's a company based near Chicago, I'm in the smaller office downstate that has about 150 employees or so (the Chicago office has about 300). The e-mail I received was forwarded by my boss from his boss (who is the VP of the company; the President is semi-retired). So my boss is a "big boss" so to speak, but not the biggest. Though it sounds like the "biggest boss" is the one guiding this policy.
When companies get to the point of laying people off, they tend to apply criteria that lets them keep the best-performing staff according to whatever metrics they use. One of those metrics tends to be sick time. In other words, all else being equal, the person that took the most sick time is most likely to be laid off.
In the UK sick time and holiday tends to be considered seperately though.
Well say one needs to make a choice as to which person to make redundant out of a group of workers who do the same role or at least a functionally similar role. To do this properly one needs to develop a scoring matrix of some kind which allows the employer to make this point using fair, easily understood criteria. Rather than subjective points like "Gordon has a great attitude and has a bright future".
The real problem is that one has to prove the marks for each point - so quite often small companies with casual or minimal performance monitoring processes grasp at any old point of comparison they can find - with the common points being length of service, disciplinary record and attendance.
Okay thanks (you too, japan!) for clearing that up for me. From talking to my co-workers, though, it seems as if the common thing to do is "use" all of the PTO time (excluding sick time) before it resets, otherwise it's "lost." From talking with my boss I was given the impression that they kind of want us to not use it so it gets lost. I just can't understand why this is a big problem, I mean, the last time I used a scheduled sick day I took four hours off to go to a doctor's appointment almost 9 months ago. And when I was hired they highlighted the fact that we get PTO as part of our benefits. Now they're saying too many people are using too much PTO? I thought that's why it was given to us. It's not as if my boss never takes a day off.
However, having them not actually use that paid time off works in the companies favour heavily; not only do they have to pay you when you're off, they might even have to pay someone else overtime to fill in for you, costing them 2.5 x pay for 1 person for 1 day (of note, I speak in general, you might not need someone to cover for you on days off).
So having the option to take sick days looks good for them, and having employees magically not get sick keeps their costs down.
Personally, I think it's bullshit. I have 10 sick days a year, but have had similar conversations with management staff about taking them, even when I'm under the cap. This is doubly frustrating when I know for a fact that there are people who have cap'd out their sick time and then ended up taking more (unpaid, paid through accounting shenanigans, or put on short or long term disability). Granted, disability is usually only taken when called for. Granted, those staff are usually spoken to as well, but I just think that offering a benefit and then bitching when that benefit is used (note; never more than 2 days in a row, and that only when I'm truly sick as a dog) is a crock of shit, even if I can understand the logic behind it from their perspective.
If you don't want me taking up to 10 sick days a year, don't give me 10 sick days a year.
Either way, this doesn't seem like the type of place you should be working at.
If you ever get sick (really sick, not just slight sniffles) take a sick day off to get better.
In my view, "abusing" personal time means taking a day off when you don't absolutely need it, or faking/exaggerating an illness.
And if you ever get fired because you're reasonably using paid time off, there's always the option of suing for wrongful termination (although I don't really know what "at-will employment" means, so I may be very wrong in that area.) Obviously, they'll usually give a different reason than that when they fire you, so at the very least, keep a written track of every announcement, policy, etc. related to this, in case you might need it later.
And like the others are saying, start looking for work elsewhere, now. The best time to look for a job is while you're still employed.
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From the OP, it's his vacation time too - usually called "flex time," so there shouldn't be any problem with taking time off if he schedules in advance. Either they give their employees vacation/sick time or they don't. You can't provide it, then say, "j/k, lol!"
As someone said earlier, it sounds like a small company who doesn't have proper HR policies in place.
If they're sending out memo's about abused PTO and you haven't been abusing it, chances are there are coworkers of yours that have been and those are the ones that should be worried. These're probably the same people that worry about PTO being 'lost'.
There's a good reason to use PTO and having a problem you need looked at by a Dr, and being unable to have that done except at business hours is a good reason.
Or you could offer to let the boss look at it to save the company some cash. :P
At my job, we have Vacation days (a set number of days per year) and then we have Personal days. Personal days are lost at the end of each calendar year, while vacation days roll over at your anniversary date. Personal days tend to be mostly for getting sick, unexpected events (need to stay home to fix a house problem, sick kid, car breakdown, etc.) and even though we have a certain amount allotted, it's frowned upon if you use them all. Many people try to use them as extra vacation days, which is not what they're for.
Is that possibly what they are talking about? If they're talking about actual Vacation time, then that is fairly ridiculous.
"at-will" basically means you cant sue for wrongful termination unless your boss says something like "We're firing you because youre gay/black/woman/have aids/etc." while firing you, which generally theyre pretty careful not to say.
OP, in this situation, the only thing you can do is not take your PTO. Yeah, it sucks, but thats reality. You should either get paid out for them or theyll roll over to next year, depending on how your company works. If theyre "use it or lose it", well, that really sucks.
If you really want to take your days though, check with your boss to see when a good time to take time off would be. I cant imagine in your company of 450+ people that no one can take time off to have an actual vacation. Maybe youre coming up to a busy period? If you do anything financial related, its filing season for the next few months, that may be why youre being told not to take your days?
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Doing this is bordering on illegal, and this is exactly how they do it. They send out an e-mail that stresses on the abuse but does not tell you not to take your time. Then they have the bosses verbally tell you that you shouldn't use that time. They don't tell you that you can't, just pressure you to not. Then if you sue or take it to the Labor Board they can say "we didn't say that. Here's the e-mail, see..." and you are SOL.
If your boss wants you to pass on your EARNED vacation time, tell him that you are going to need that in writing. They won't put it in writing, and once they realize that you are one of the people that they are not going to dupe, they will usually just leave it alone. The company just saves a ton of money because they are going to pay you whether you work or you take the vacation, so to them it's 8 hours of free work for every day of vacation that you don't take.
If they tell you that it's going to "Look bad" by taking your accrued vacation, ask them if you can get that criteria that they are going off of, IN WRITING.
Don't let them jerk you around. I would get another job. That is what I did and I used my vacation time to find it!!!!!
Good luck
Some companies group both together. For example, at my job they group personal, vacation, and holiday time into one PTO bank, and it's up to you to decide how you want to use it. So if you don't want to get pay a holiday because you're saving all your days for a longer vacation, you are able to do that.
I'm going to up my effort in finding a new job. I'm going to go to the doctor and I'm going to take time off for interviews and such. But beyond that I don't think I'm going to make a fuss over this since I don't want to get fired. And what Reverend Chaos said is exactly right - I just re-read the e-mail that was sent and it is incredibly vague. If my boss pushes it though, I'll ask for something in writing. Our employee handbook states that PTO can be denied for three reasons, the first being we've used up all our time, the second being not giving one weeks notice, and the third being company need. The only way I see them really denying anything then is because of company need - but from the e-mail and the talk I had with my boss, I didn't get the impression that they were really consider the employee handbook. Oh well.
Thanks for all the help again H/A! You people are awesome.
This is why I'm flabbergasted as to why everyone's asking what state they live in.
It's part of your employed compensation and there's no reason not to use it.
If they feel like being flexible in this regards, I would talk to the supervisor and go "Okay, then pay me for my accrued time off as well as me coming in to work."
However, I'd most likely take the time off and wait for them to cite that as a reason for firing me, then using the handbook and my contract as a course to sue their ass off for breach of contract. But I'm a giant dick.
They have no legal bearing in any state to tell you you cannot take PTO off that you've accrued through your employment. They may have stipulations as to when you can take the time off or how many at a time you can take off, but it's not "you have to make up the time." All the states I quickly glanced over about this have something in their worker protection clauses that say:
"Can my employer force me to make up for my vacation days or not let me use them?"
Is Met with:
"Call the DoL and let them know, we have the ability to force compliance."
Check your revised handbook, and just give your local Department of Labor/Employment a call and ask them the legality just in case.
I'm also not aware of any way in which they would be wrong in this position, as I'm an exempt employee from FLSA regulations.
Exempt from FLSA is one thing, but that generally means you're salary and have a contract.
They should be letting employees know, as it should be in the handbook, the stipulations for taking PTO. Did they compensate you for the accrued time because of the difficulty of scheduling it? If they refused to do that, and my handbook and contract made no stipulations I'd go ahead and take my time regardless and look for a new job. Employers that dick around their employees tend to do so more than just about PTO. Like late paychecks, overtime compensation, etc.
My advice is to request off for the appointments and go to them, whether it's approved or not. If they deny it, call in that day and let them know you're not going to be there and why. Get documentation (doctor's note, etc) and give a copy to your supervisor and a copy to HR. Even though it's At Will, they can still be sued and medical stuff is where most places are very careful. Just keep in mind they can discriminate against you for using time off. If you're in a situation like that, the best thing really is to just get another job as soon as you can or find another department in the same company. I thought my old department reflect on my company, but my eyes were opened when I transferred out, and I now love my job.
I believe even at will states have to answer to fair labor standards.
I may be talking out of my ass, but I don't believe there are any fair labor standards regarding benefits. They're just that, benefits, and I believe can be taken away at any time.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that not letting you use PTO for a bogus or unethical reason is, well, unethical and possibly illegal.
But they can still drop unused time without compensation.
If you are employed under a contract which states you accrue X paid days leave over a certain period of time, and that period has elapsed, those days off are part of your compensation and would be owed to you if they fired you. I mean, I'm not a lawyer, but paid time off is part of your salary - they say they will pay you X, if they haven't yet, then they owe it to you. If they owe you a week's pay, you'll get it one way or another.
OP, if you run into a situation where your time off will expire (which is fairly typical, you can only have up to two weeks or so at most jobs I know of) then talk to your supervisor. Tell him that you have no desire not to work, but that these things are part of your compensation, and if he won't be approving your time off (as previously agreed when they hired you) then he'll need to approve a bonus check for that amount instead.
Also keep looking for a job.
http://www.state.il.us/agency/idol/faq/qawage.htm
First bolded is the big unknown here.
Second bolded is what I was talking about.
I'm a step below management, effectively "pseudo-management" because we're a set of small teams and the actual manager handles a lot of people. We occasionally get similar emails or official statements during meetings. "You must work your full work day, do not abuse sick days."
Management cannot single out employees and say "this doesn't apply to you" because, of course, it does. You probably are not the person or people being reprimanded/reminded, though.
At my work, we get these "reminders" every 12 or 18 months because another department has some trouble employees, or they receive complaints that they believe another department has people abusing their time. For paid time (at work), this is typically in the form of leaving early, showing up late, or taking a long lunch and not making up for it. For sick/vacation, this is often when people play hooky by calling in sick (such as when a big deadline is due, but they conveniently always seem to be sick) or by taking a half day for an appointment but working less than the other half day.
Another form of PTO abuse is when people use sick leave instead of vacation leave. So if a person is scheduled to take a vacation day, but then they get a cold and try to use a sick day instead.
The final form of abuse is calling it in at the last minute -- say, asking your boss for 2 days off at the end of the week because of a sudden vacation, or you knew about it but didn't tell them.
However, from the sound of it, you aren't doing any of that -- you have appointments that are medical, you're using sick time to account for that. Most likely, the responses that you're getting are under the assumption that you're guilty because you're asking, or they're trying to look out for you because they're going to ask questions of everyone who's taking time off over the next month or so.
Still, whenever these "reminders" come up at work, there's always a couple employees who assume that they're the guilty ones, and drill me for answers. "What the hell, I always work my hours! How dare they assume I'm leaving early!" and I have to remind them that this is simply protocol, that the managers have to tell all of their employees what the rules are because of one, or more than one, bad eggs. I always tell them "If you're not abusing your work day, then what are you worried about? Obviously, it's not about you, it's about those people who are taking 2 hour lunches and leaving at the same time" (or whatever their crime is).
I don't see this as a knock against the employer -- it's pretty standard protocol to remind employees what the rules are when only one or a few are trying to stretch those rules.
Thanks for the reply, it's good to get something that may be closer to the manager's view on this. I hope that the response I'm getting is because of your second example - because, quite frankly, if my boss thinks I'm guilty for asking for clarification on a very vague threat of termination, then well, I wouldn't think especially highly of my boss's managerial skills.
I understand that benefit time is an extra perk and all, but it was presented as something we would get and be able to use. All the examples of abuse of time you gave are good examples, but as far as I can tell they're all examples of abusing unscheduled time-off.
Maybe I am overacting. It just doesn't seem like my employer is reminding us what the rules are. I've read the official rules. It seems they're telling us that the rulebook says A but if you do A watch your ass because it might get you fired. (The rulebook says something along the lines of, "you will receive X number of hours, vacation, personal and floating holidays. If you do not use them up by the end of your year they will be lost." While the boss is telling me, "you're here to work 40 hours a week and if you schedule to use vacation, personal, or floating holiday time, prepare to be disciplined." I may be misunderstanding, but to me that's a big knock against the employer.
Oh, and also, I am 100% sure that if I were to lose my job I would not get any of my unused PTO paid to me - I'm not upset about that because they made that fairly clear when I was hired.
A few years ago, upper upper upper management passed down two things. One was the banning of overtime pay as mentioned and the second was a 'request to strive' to work an extra 6% unpaid overtime (~125 hours, which would be a touch above the 3 weeks of vacation). We were always urged to make up the negative balances because over time goes from the payer to the company as pure profit and that's always nice.
Now we are all but forbidden from using Personal Business and heavily pressured to make up any Personal Illness time. Now, the managers cannot tell us this directly... nor have they actually come out saying that negative balances will reflect on your performance review (and thus raises), because they don't want to get into that battle. However, anyone but the most heavy drinkers of the corporate kool-aid know what is going on. Is it fair? No, of course not. Does that matter? No, of course not.
If a company wants you fired, they will see you fired. If it is because you're using PTO and they don't want you to use PTO, they will find a reason that looks better and then fire you. They will judge you harshly, they will claim you missed "vital" meetings that affected your ability to perform your job... even if the meetings only became vital when you were already on the vacation. Can you sue? Probably... may even win, but it would cost a lot up front.
One assumes that one's employer isn't an asshole to the employees, but that isn't always the case. As for your manager, he may simply be acting on pressure from HIS manager (And so on). You could talk to HR about it if you want, but if it is a top-level type giving this not-really-official-but-only-for-legal-reasons decree, it may not matter.
If you are worried, save all of the emails you exchange on the topic so if they do fire you, you will have that to back up your thoughts on the cause.
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