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The War On Terror: Veterans
Murago
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Back in high school, I signed up for the military. I spent four years in JROTC, and I was pumped. I got my signing bonus, was going to be an MP stationed in Germany directly after getting out of boot camp. I was excited to join the ranks of my fellow JROTC buddies who went before me. Keep in mind, my instructors didn't give a shit either way, but one was upset that i didn't do College ROTC and get an eductation on Uncle Sam's buck.
Well, one of my buddies came back and gave me this word of advice "Don't fucking go". He said he hated it, actually, that was what a few of them said. After a year of thinking, I realized it wasn't for me. I've never felt good about it, feeling as though I was a traitor or a girly man. (i'm a self deptricating irrational dude...sue me). Anyway, b/c of this history, I have a huge respect for the men and women who choose to serve their country.
So big in fact, that in their presence, I become ashamed and almost embarrased to talk to them b/c I place them on a pedestal. Most of them are locked in a battle in a country they don't want to be in, leaving families and loved ones behind...and trying to liberate a populus that has sects that simply want to murder any american they see. I'm sure from their perspective, its either an opportunity or just another day job that involves shooting a gun...but for me, I place them in a position of supreme honor. Fighting in some distant land so that I can live a comfortable life back home.
Now, whether or not you agree with the politics is a moot point. I don't want to question your patriotism. But the point of this thread is actually to get some differing on where your head is at regarding veterans coming home. While I was a show on Hulu the other day, a commercial came on that peturbed me. A man in military battle dress uniform is all alone in a very large intersection (maybe times square?) and obviously just arrived home.
A fellow veteran recognizes him in all this empty space, approaches him directly, and says "Welcome Home"...just then the scene changes and they are both really in a very busy intersection, with people crossing the roads and cars driving by. This makes me wonder. Am I part of a young culture that has copied the overall mindset of the vietnam war?
What i mean is, people aren't united as they were for WWII, I see myself more as a a mid 20 yr old in the era of the Vietnam war...in disagreement with being in Iraq. I feel, however, that the men and women returning home have no choice, and if it were left up to them, they'd rather not be at war. They should be praised for returning home, not shunned. Hate the sin, not the sinner. Or something like that.
So, D&D...your thoughts, comments, and maybe personal experiences. I'd actually love to know how an Iraq/Afghan/"War On Terror" Veteran feels about this. Do you feel invisible in a crowd? Do you prefer no recognition, or are you pissed that us civies are seemingly aloof of your contributions.
Gracias.
Well, one of my buddies came back and gave me this word of advice "Don't fucking go". He said he hated it, actually, that was what a few of them said. After a year of thinking, I realized it wasn't for me. I've never felt good about it, feeling as though I was a traitor or a girly man. (i'm a self deptricating irrational dude...sue me). Anyway, b/c of this history, I have a huge respect for the men and women who choose to serve their country.
So big in fact, that in their presence, I become ashamed and almost embarrased to talk to them b/c I place them on a pedestal. Most of them are locked in a battle in a country they don't want to be in, leaving families and loved ones behind...and trying to liberate a populus that has sects that simply want to murder any american they see. I'm sure from their perspective, its either an opportunity or just another day job that involves shooting a gun...but for me, I place them in a position of supreme honor. Fighting in some distant land so that I can live a comfortable life back home.
Now, whether or not you agree with the politics is a moot point. I don't want to question your patriotism. But the point of this thread is actually to get some differing on where your head is at regarding veterans coming home. While I was a show on Hulu the other day, a commercial came on that peturbed me. A man in military battle dress uniform is all alone in a very large intersection (maybe times square?) and obviously just arrived home.
A fellow veteran recognizes him in all this empty space, approaches him directly, and says "Welcome Home"...just then the scene changes and they are both really in a very busy intersection, with people crossing the roads and cars driving by. This makes me wonder. Am I part of a young culture that has copied the overall mindset of the vietnam war?
What i mean is, people aren't united as they were for WWII, I see myself more as a a mid 20 yr old in the era of the Vietnam war...in disagreement with being in Iraq. I feel, however, that the men and women returning home have no choice, and if it were left up to them, they'd rather not be at war. They should be praised for returning home, not shunned. Hate the sin, not the sinner. Or something like that.
So, D&D...your thoughts, comments, and maybe personal experiences. I'd actually love to know how an Iraq/Afghan/"War On Terror" Veteran feels about this. Do you feel invisible in a crowd? Do you prefer no recognition, or are you pissed that us civies are seemingly aloof of your contributions.
Gracias.
Check out www.myspace.com/scarborough -- tell me what you think!
Murago on
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Do you still have the link to this? Id like to see it
I think you're making some unverified assumptions. Very few people didn't support veterans in Vietnam. I think you're conflating support for the war versus wanting veterans to have benefits and a support network back here. What does it mean to you to "support" veterans? There are plenty of volunteer opportunities if you're so inclined.
Who's running around shunning veterans? As you note, I think your attitude about comes in part from you feeling guilty for not going, so you are more reverent about the services than veterans are.
It's on CNN relatively often. Basically to try and get vets with PTSD to seek treatment or at least go to a vet center. Which is something that really could use a boost in marketing/outreach/whatever as the suicide rate in the military exceeds that in the civilian community for the first time since Vietnam. If I remember correctly.
I mean, it's just a job, I dunno....I guess I just don't like the limelight
Also, Murago, it's okay man. I'm rather happy that you made the intelligent choice and decided to not do something you didn't want to do than stick it through, hate it, and go AWOL. I have nothing but the deepest contempt for AWOLs.
Personally though (amongst my "friends" at least...and at least one of my mom's friends), people have identified me with the Iraq war and shunned me. Of course, fuck them, they're mothefucking assholes, but still, it -does- happen.
I think that's what leads to a lot of the mental issues a lot of us have when we get back...the perceived separation from regular society. We're basically living in a sea of people who have no idea what people are having to go through in a war that many (if not most) of them vehemently supported starting. It's an overwhelming feeling of bitterness and isolation.
It's ten times worse, I think, for returning reservists...keeping in mind that my rotation at least was nearly 1/3 reservists...because we don't even have each other to connect with, at least not to the extent that active-duty soldiers have.
Are you saying the yellow magnet ribbons on my car aren't filling your life with joy and prosperity?!
Not the greatest analogy on my part. He hasn't talked to me since, though.
He was mad at you for joining the guard because he was liberal? Does he want to abolish all armed forces or something?
I think this is the problem, you can't expect them to be welcomed back as heroes by people who don't know them when they haven't been fighting in a distant land so you can live a comfortable life back home. I can't think of any other war that became a joke whilst it was still ongoing.
People either don't particularly care (or even intentionally try not to notice for your sake, because they disagreed with it and know it wasn't your choice), consider it your fault for getting caught up it in or may even hold you acountable due to the various dubious goings on that occured during the war. The enemy was so nebulous and the threat apparently not over that the people who would be otherwise cheering your return can't really get worked up over a job not finished - recognition of harship for no overriding purpose raises awkward questions.
Other than the family members of service personelle, no one is really affected in a positive way. It seems very much a 21st century equivalent to the return of vietnam vets, but with any active harrasment or opposition replaced with a lack of interest. I think shunning is too strong a word for the passive disinterest people feel for the returning soldiers, which only increases the alienation. Though that alienation almost goes both ways - its hard to think what you as an unrelated citizen should do though, other than donate to the charities that assist with returning vets reintergration with society since really what do you know what someone went through in a cause you (and they) may vehemently disagree with.
He kept trying to accuse me of having contradictory ideologies or something. I got pretty frustrated so I didn't talk with him too long.
I've met a couple douchebags like this, though they're pretty few and far between. At least in real life (marginally less so on the internet, where they run less risk of getting cock-punched).
Also, everything Tastyfish said.
I think the more common scenario today is that a person comes from a family that is too poor to provide other opportunities, or a person just doesn't have the will or mental capabilities to do anything else, so they enter this disciplined environment that provides shelter, food, and a paycheck. In that respect, I don't think there is anything particularly courageous with the previous scenarios. It just becomes another type of a job, albeit one with significant more danger and risks.
I also think it depends on the situation. You don't get to choose what war you fight in if you are already enlisted, but if you choose to enlist during a conflict which you believe directly impacts your nation (or personal ethics) that is certainly very courageous. At some point though you have to weigh whether most people who do enlist have the capacity to accurately understand the motivations, causes, historical perspective and consquences of a current conflict (say the Iraq War). Some people do, but I would venture that most of these people aren't scholars, and at some point you have to wonder if the blind loyalty or flawed reasoning of an enlistee poses a bigger betrayl of societial and national responsibilities then depriving a nation of its armed forces when they are being used improperly. Of course this isn't a black and white question, but I find that opinions based on things other than empirical reasearch tend to be flawed at best, and usually wrong, and I don't know many people who go through the process of unbiased research before committing to a conflict.
tldr: It's my belief that soldier hero-worship is a byproduct of cultural expectations, and that soldiers should bear a greater responsibility for understanding a conflict they may take part in before they make themselves a tool for that said conflict.
Edit: Moving this back towards the topic, I would celebrate veterans on a case by case basis. The bureaucracy is, as it should be, blind to the popularity and justifiability of any given conflict and should provide all the benefits and support entitled to every member of the armed forces. That is part of the job. I also believe those benefits should be forfeited for those who conduct themselves improperly overseas, especially when explicity violating standards laid out by treaties and army codes (torture, ect.) Whether a person is a hero depends on the person. Did they save someone, a fellow soldier, a civilian? Did they enlist for the right reasons at a time where our nation was under attack or duress? Yes? Then you're a hero in my opinion. Did you enlist in a war you didn't understand that turned out to be waged for reasons on then the principles laid out by our society? Did you do it because you needed the money and weren't capable of understanding the conflict? Yes? Not so much the hero.
Don't cut yourself short...umm, you guys are responsible for Biden's house. Also there's that whole making nuclear less scary to a lot of people. And, uh, you helped inspire the Village People...
:P
When you strip the big words out, it basically sounds like you're saying it's the soldier's fault for going to war, they signed up for it because they are poor/stupid. Yet they must be either clairvoyant or have a better understanding of international relations than members of Congress?
What?
The median soldier is generally from a median family, incomewise. The upper quintile is under-represented, but so is the lower (I could speculate as to why, but it's not relevant). So while the common perception that the rich don't tend to go fight wars does have some truth to it, the idea that only the "poor" fight wars is largely false.
I agree. Many people find it hard to make the distinction. The troops are the most visible sign of the war, and associations are made. I do love how ubiquitous the yellow ribbon sticker is, and how lacking support for the VA and other organizations is in real terms.
I make a practice of pulling those stickers off and throwing them in the trash when I see them in parking lots. I've also found that those stickers are a pretty good indicator of irrationality.
This is largely a tool that the pro-war folks have used politically for the last few years...make no mistake, plenty of soldiers don't agree with Iraq any more than you do.
They're mostly Tennesseans, right?
I'd say soldiers in general are in less favor of the war than the average Joe is.
It helps that they have more context than we do. The government spent a while trying to glorify our efforts there. Meanwhile, people like a friend of one of my best friends is sitting in Afghanistan (or well, he was, until an injury sent him home recently) going, "Okay, I'm really starting to miss me some video games."
As for the Iraq war being fought so I can have a comfortable life? Unadulterated bullshit. The reason so many Iraqis want to kill Americans is because we're over there in the first place. I still haven't decided if the whole fiasco has been worthwhile, I mean Saddam was guilty of genocide, but at one point after we threw him out of power there was more torture going on than during his rule. Countless more civilians have died because of the war we initiated but in the long run we might have saved more lives. I doubt I'll ever feel certain about it one way or the other.
sweet, since I'm entering the nuke program... I'm contributing!
Also, the navy does help with the threat of mutual destruction. They have enough subs with nuclear warheads out there that cannot be traced that nobody would launch nukes at us. I guess.
I think when you are putting yourself into a position where you can possibly take a human life (or multiple lives) you have an obligation to yourself, and the principles your nation stands for, to make sure you understand why you are doing it. If killing people doesn't violate your principles, or you believe murder isn't against the principles of your nation, then I guess there is no problem (or responsibility). But then you aren't a hero in that instance so thats moot. Assuming someone shares the basic ethic that killing is serious business, I think they should get a book and read up on some history. They are going to be comitting years of their life to this one thing. It's not that unreasonable.
I think we have found that people in Congress don't really read anything in tremendous detail unless they are on committee, so yes, they should try to achieve a greater knowledge then the average member of congress on this specific conflict. But on International Relations on a whole? No, thats a strawman attack and you should know better.
This is what I am referring to when I say culture of heroworship. Thank you.
Oh, I agree with you. But in the armed forces, you HAVE to respect the rank. Of course, if the person is worthy of respect, the point is moot. You're going to respect him/her anyway. Subordinates still have to show respect for whatever reason.
Yes, but the point is, don't project your feelings of distaste onto the common soldier for political acts he is forced to carry out. It isn't his fault. It's one of those shoot the messenger things, really.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_projection
Well my argument is that in many cases it his/her fault for signing up for something they didn't do any research on. It is one thing if they are already enlisted. But if you enlisted without knowing we supported Saddam in overthrowing a democratic Iraqi government in the 70s and 80s, or that we supported his attack on Iran, or that Saddam tried to assassinate the first Bush in kuwait, or without reading up on how the intelligence and contracts regarding this conflict are being handled. Well then you don't really know why you are shooting these people. You know what the government is telling you, but as history shows us, "I was just following orders" doesn't absolve you of a crime. Before you put yourself in a position where that might be an issue, you need to do some research. If you do the research and are still okay with it, that's your choice. But if the war turns out to be an abominable political act built on lies, deceit, and war crimes. Well then you aren't really a hero.
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
True enough. It just rubbed me the wrong way, and seemed a bit simplistic. I don't know that the poor guy getting into the armed forces to better his position in life would be able to make the fine distinctions. Especially since the official histories paint our efforts in the rosiest of rosy lights. Before the advent of the Internet, a good bit of history was either expensive to research, or fairly inconvenient. I'd posit that a good deal of recruits still also lack the Google-fu that the average forumer here has, and the curiosity to find out the details of every conflict we have been involved in.
Few people sign up to be a hero. They're still signing up to serve and protect the country. If they're ordered to wars that aren't for the best intentions, it's still an order that they obey in the interest of doing what they can to serve the country. War crimes aside, to blame soldiers for being a part of these wars is stupid.
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
"I'm not asking you to like it, I'm asking you to do it."
I could be signing up to stop crime, but if I decided to sign up with the Chicago Police Department even though it was obvious they were corrupt and taking bribes, then well I am not really a good person am I? If I was already with the department when the corruption started, that's different (especially if there is some law that I can't quit like there is with the military). But what you're saying is that they are signing up to serve and protect the country, and if they sign up during a time when they should know better? Oh well.
That's stupid.
Wallaka: I agree about the ability of some, but that opens up the broader question of how we recruit and field our armed forces. And that's a whole nother shitstorm.