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Girlfriend's Male Friend Ettiquette?
Apothe0sis
Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered User regular
Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered User regular
So, allow me to describe a scenario.
My girlfriend is talking online to a friend of hers, of some five years. I look over her shoulder and note a few phrases which I immediately recognise as the "I'm a nice guy waiting around hoping to win your love and affection routine".
So, later, we're at a sporting league, which my girlfriend participated in long before meeting me. She is confused as to why far fewer of the guys are talking to her since I started attending, some guys are actively hostile to her, and a fair few more are openly hostile to me. One of the guys who works at the centre slams my food on the table, instantly changing from happy to not-happy when he finds the food isn't for her, but for me.
Somewhat amused by it all, and attempting to mitigate her confusion, I offer my opinion that the following guys who are openly hostile were in fact trying to obtain her romantic attention. She declares "No, they're just friends", I respond "To you, maybe". She proceeds to detail their interactions prior to my arrival, which clearly support my thesis, which I point out.
Now, she offers her aforementioned friend, sharing many of the behaviours as the league guys, as evidence that they are not in fact after her, and that everyone is "just friends". I m forced to explain that he is in fact, not on the same page in this regard. She disputes it, but that's cool.
Anyway, a few of the guys made their intentions clear, and were shot down, but this made her somewhat melancholy as she feels that she's lost friends, or never really had the friends she thought she had.
The real problem is the friend first mentioned in the story asks a few questions online again, which really puts the writing on the wall. I was lying next to her at the time, so was somewhat paricipating, (we were also looking up a singularly unusual sexual act to see if anyone in internet land knew anything about it, this becomes important later). She responded in a way which I thought odd, so asked her why she didn't shoot him down too. She doesn't understand what I'm talking about, and doesn't see the clear implications of his responses, questions and so forth.
Anyway, after I inform her of how I interpret his questions, she changes gears and asks him why he's asking those questions. He dances around the issue, she takes it to mean she offended him because it was clear that she was reading things into the questions, but he meant them in other ways which I didn't get because I don't know what they do together and all that. I tell her I don't think that's the case, but admit I don't know the guy well, and she should do whatever she thinks is correct. Then, I jokingly ask if she thinks he'd have heard of the weird fetish we were investigating - she takes it as serious and asks him.
The this week, she gets a bunch of emails and invitations to adult dating sites from him. She asks him what's up, apologises for the weirdness of the conversation earlier. He confesses his desire, and that he thought her questions about the fetish were an invitation. She shoots him down.
Anyway, the crux of the issue is this. She seems pretty upset about the fact that he's "been decieving her". And also at me, though she wont say so directly, because it was under my influence and due to my insight that things came to ahead. What should I have done? I'm not worried, or insecure in my position, but what is the ettiquette in such situations? Is it my place to point out when guys are pursuing her, especially if they're long-term friends?
tl;dr : What's the rule of thumb with regard to your girlfriend's male friends who are clearly pursuing her, if she doesn't get it? Is it my place to ruin her innocence? Should I point them out in the interests of truth? Should I only point them out if I think they're crossing a line?
My girlfriend is talking online to a friend of hers, of some five years. I look over her shoulder and note a few phrases which I immediately recognise as the "I'm a nice guy waiting around hoping to win your love and affection routine".
So, later, we're at a sporting league, which my girlfriend participated in long before meeting me. She is confused as to why far fewer of the guys are talking to her since I started attending, some guys are actively hostile to her, and a fair few more are openly hostile to me. One of the guys who works at the centre slams my food on the table, instantly changing from happy to not-happy when he finds the food isn't for her, but for me.
Somewhat amused by it all, and attempting to mitigate her confusion, I offer my opinion that the following guys who are openly hostile were in fact trying to obtain her romantic attention. She declares "No, they're just friends", I respond "To you, maybe". She proceeds to detail their interactions prior to my arrival, which clearly support my thesis, which I point out.
Now, she offers her aforementioned friend, sharing many of the behaviours as the league guys, as evidence that they are not in fact after her, and that everyone is "just friends". I m forced to explain that he is in fact, not on the same page in this regard. She disputes it, but that's cool.
Anyway, a few of the guys made their intentions clear, and were shot down, but this made her somewhat melancholy as she feels that she's lost friends, or never really had the friends she thought she had.
The real problem is the friend first mentioned in the story asks a few questions online again, which really puts the writing on the wall. I was lying next to her at the time, so was somewhat paricipating, (we were also looking up a singularly unusual sexual act to see if anyone in internet land knew anything about it, this becomes important later). She responded in a way which I thought odd, so asked her why she didn't shoot him down too. She doesn't understand what I'm talking about, and doesn't see the clear implications of his responses, questions and so forth.
Anyway, after I inform her of how I interpret his questions, she changes gears and asks him why he's asking those questions. He dances around the issue, she takes it to mean she offended him because it was clear that she was reading things into the questions, but he meant them in other ways which I didn't get because I don't know what they do together and all that. I tell her I don't think that's the case, but admit I don't know the guy well, and she should do whatever she thinks is correct. Then, I jokingly ask if she thinks he'd have heard of the weird fetish we were investigating - she takes it as serious and asks him.
The this week, she gets a bunch of emails and invitations to adult dating sites from him. She asks him what's up, apologises for the weirdness of the conversation earlier. He confesses his desire, and that he thought her questions about the fetish were an invitation. She shoots him down.
Anyway, the crux of the issue is this. She seems pretty upset about the fact that he's "been decieving her". And also at me, though she wont say so directly, because it was under my influence and due to my insight that things came to ahead. What should I have done? I'm not worried, or insecure in my position, but what is the ettiquette in such situations? Is it my place to point out when guys are pursuing her, especially if they're long-term friends?
tl;dr : What's the rule of thumb with regard to your girlfriend's male friends who are clearly pursuing her, if she doesn't get it? Is it my place to ruin her innocence? Should I point them out in the interests of truth? Should I only point them out if I think they're crossing a line?
Apothe0sis on
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I dont see any real reason to point it out either, its more for your benefit than hers, you get to think to yourself "yeah that guy thinks he's in with a chance but I'm onto him" so you enjoy it, but to her the guys intentions are probably best left buried.
But, I'm not really thinking about the simply pointing it out randomly scenario that much - more when it would naturally come up, like when we were discussing why she was being left alone now...
Ironically, my last relationship (which I broke up with a week and a half ago over this EXACT SITUATION, first time I ever had to because of it) got a little over the edge. There was a "best guy friend" she decided to hang out with one night while I was at work. She called me, during work, and decided to try and have a three way conversation. I went on break just for this.
Its just ceaseless chatter at first. Then my girl decides to run to the restroom real quick and hands the phone to said "best guy friend." In a very quiet tone, he explains to me how he has a goal to make out with my girl by the end of tonight, and how he is going to make said relationship "come crashing down all around me."
I told him I'd cut him.
Anyways, fast forward a few months, I break up with her because I find she's too clingy towards said guy. She wants to start bringing him to our more romantic dates, etc. If it was to the movies, or somewhere more casual, I wouldn't have minded.
Just my two cents. Your girl already has the idea that some guys are jealous or envious of your relationship. My girl refused to acknowledge it. Give her time.
But seriously, you DO have to trust her judgement.
Regardless of if you trust it or not, she willa ct how she will act. If she is not going to cheat on you with one of these guys if you fill her in on their behavior, she's not going to cheat on you if you do not.
I'd say just ignore it unless it is something that is an obvious issue or they do something wildly inappropriate (like one of the previous posters examples of the guy whispering on the phone).
Generally speaking, yeah. Things need to be dealt with sooner rather than later (within reason, of course).
Often a girl who develops a following of opportunistic men has ended up in that situation because she's either bad at reading signals or bad at giving signals, or both. She might be interacting in a way that she thinks is "friendly" but other guys see it as "flirty." This is unfair to both her and the other guys, some of whom may be jerks, but some of whom may be well-meaning.
IMO, the ideal outcome of the above situation would have been for your girlfriend to sit down with her male friend and explain, "You know, I'm very committed to Apothe0sis and I just want to make sure that you and I are just friends and there isn't anything else going on between us." Basically, to shoot him down in a nice and respectful way. She can't do that if she can't see what's going on.
This should go without saying but you can't control her actions or demand that she treat her male friends a certain way or stop her from seeing them. But there's nothing wrong with pointing out your observations and hoping that she'll take you seriously.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
@Feral - she is indeed bad at giving signals, what she thinks friendly is what most guys think flirty, but having actually experienced when she is being flirty, I can tell the difference and that there's nothing in her "friendly" behaviour. This came up in another conversation (and kind of lead back to this one) when she asked why it was that girls don't like her when she starts a new job...
And your ideal outcome is what happened, once he actually made his intentions explicit.
And I'm certainly not interested in controlling her actions, it's my experience that what happens, happensand you can either trust the other person or not.
Every attractive girl has at the very least several orbiters. Orbiters are basically guys who pretend to be her friend (or even are actually her friend) but secretly want to sleep with her, and would, given the chance. Basically the dynamics of those sorts of relationships is the guy stays around to jump at the chance, and the girl keeps him around because she likes the attention. Okay, maybe it's not always as manipulative and selfish as that, but you get the idea.
So when you started dating this girl you ruined that dynamic. The guys are angry at you because they feel like they have made all that "investment" and you came in and stole her from them, and she doesn't like the negative energy and tension that builds up from that.
As for whether or not she's aware, I would say that she's either extremely naive (doubtful), or playing the fool (most likely, because even if she could explain it, you would either think lowly of her or wouldn't understand).
What to do about it? As a rule of thumb I keep my nose out of my girlfriend's business when it comes to this sort of thing. The thing is, if I suspected that she would screw around with other guys while dating me, she wouldn't be my girlfriend in the first place. And it certainly doesn't bother me that other guys hit on her. In fact, it's kinda nice: it constantly reminds me that I'm dating a very attractive and cool girl.
Therefore, they will willfully ignore the more "obvious" signs that a guy might be throwing their way, mainly because they like the fact that said guy is showing them attention.
For example, I'm in a non-commited relationship with this girl, and we were talking last night about a mutual male friend of ours. She was talking about how they had been hanging out and how she's concerned that he hasn't had a date in a while. I told her "Well that's because he thinks he's dating you." At first she scoffed claiming that I didn't know what I was talking about, but after explaining to her how some guys can misinterpret "friendliness" for "flirtiness", she kindof went "oooooh" and said "I guess I should let him know then."
So basically, girls need to understand that most, if not all guys they meet are going to be interested in them as a sexual partner first, and friend second. That's not sexist, it's not stereotypical, that's just how it is. For a friendship to truly work out between a man and a woman, the sexual tension has to be taken care of right off the bat.
I... just... Wow.
What in the world are you thinking?
Take a vacation, come back when you leave the stone age.
You beat me to it Than.
I don't know which was worse, his first comment, or his later explanation.
If you treat all your girlfriends in this way man, you are in for some extremely unhappy endings, if not a few court restraining orders.
They are not sex starved nymphos looking to hook up with anything with a penis behind your back, nor are they little lost puppies that will wander stray without your mindfull guidance. Any girl that would appreciate your efforts would mostlikely be suffering some huge confidence issues at best.
Grow up and learnt hat a real partnership takes equal effort from both sides. If you contantly monitor her every action and scrutinise her every motive for eveidence she's gonna cheat on you.. guess what, you are gonna make it all come true.
The OP has the situation decently at hand it seems *to get back on topic* But just be carefull you don't turn honest and timely pointers into a scrutiny of her every relationship. From the examples given it seems like you brought them up at appropriate times... just be mindful of things like that, especially if it seems like you are doing it so often as to be picking apart all of her relationships.
Also, just to weigh in with my opinion: I would definitely tell her how you interpret these guys' intentions. Rare is the time when honest communication with your SO isn't a good thing.
As for the weirdness well... that's unavoidable. It's no one's fault that you acted on your feelings first while the other guys were content to piddle around and flirt and shit. If they wanted her, they should have tried for her before you did. And if she shot them down, they need to get over it or stop being friends with her.
I don't really see how you can help to be honest or that you should even help since it's not your business.
You do have every right to talk to her about this stuff though.. either she is naive or just craves attention. In the first case, you'd be doing her a favor helping her figure out who her real friends are. In the second case... well I don't think it's fair to you for her to lead other guys on. Regardless of whether or not she has any intentions or thoughts about anything developing.
But the more I think about it, the less I think talking to her about it could really affect much. Some things people just have to learn on their own I think. From what you have posted it seems like you two have a good relationship. I would let things be, I don't think you have anything to worry about. If she brings it up again, talk about it, but otherwise I would just keep my mouth shut.
My two cents.
In my own relationship with my significant other, it's happened before in the past. There'll be a guy or guys that I peg immediately as being somewhat interested in her but she'll deny it vehemently, claiming they were just friends. It's only later that she'll admit that she got an odd vibe but she was ignoring it because she didn't want to be thought of as over-sensitive.
What can you do about it? Be cool. The question really is whether you can trust her. If you feel you can, there may not be a need to prove your point really. State it simply ("I think he's interested in you but meh") rather than repeatedly trying to make your point ("I think he's interested in you because he's done all these things which connote interest in guy-talk" and an hour later repeat). If she doesn't want to hear you, she won't believe you, no matter how much "evidence" you have. She has to come to the realisation somewhat on her own.
Like others have pointed out, trying to prove your point here can make you look like the jealous or little guy. Repeatedly pointing it out to her may also make her feel lousy.
Hell I'll admit I've been into chicks with boyfriends before. I can only assume it's happened to most girls by the time they're 20.
1) You might think it is obvious and 100% true. You could be wrong. Approach things from a situation where you express your concerns and share what your thinking, but never tell someone they are simply 'wrong' or 'can't see it'.
A related point to that, when she makes you mad, and she will at some point, for the love of god, don't say "You make me angry", say "What you are doing is making me angry".
The soft touch is the right touch. The 'clue-by-four' is not.
2) Negotiate a solution. You have your theroy, and she has hers. You need a solution that allows both theroies to be right.
This avoids the atomic bomb that will happen if you claim to be 100% right and something proves you wrong. This also makes it easier if your right. She does not want to feel stupid, and saying that something is 'obvious' will make her feel stupid and worthless. You really don't want that.
I'd suggest that you re-phrase your conclusions to say that you feel like many of the guys are trying to get into her pants instead of being actual friends.
Say that it makes you uncomfortable, and ask her if she might consider doing some research on their intentions, to make you feel better.
3) Explain the old 'lets talk about my boyfriend/girlfriend' trick.
This is the oldest trick in the book for quickly sorting out if someone is only interested in getting in your pants.
Simply ask her to talk about you with any male 'friends' she is hanging out with.
She can basically pick out all the ones trying to sleep with her by seeing which ones get irritated or say absoultly anything negative about you.
When you've got a friend who is a girl, you'll be down right chatty about who they are seeing. However, a friend will NOT say ANYTHING negative about who their friend is seeing. Unless they are going to treat it like a major fight, and expect you to get angry at them.
Explain that any guy who is her friend will talk about you without getting irritated. Even if they think your a jerk, they will simply be evasive about giving their own opinion and just indicate agreement with anything she says. If they think your a pretty decent guy, they'll argue on your behalf, because they want to see their friend happy.
4) She might have reached the conclusion that your not really her 'friend'. If she is finally figuring out that most guys only want into her pants, and don't have any interest in her beyond that...
Well the logical question she might be asking is: Was my current boyfriend my 'friend', or just someone trying to get into my pants.
That sort of thinking can be a relationship ender. The second she thinks your deceptive, is the second your in a hole that is nearly impossible to get out of.
They don't want some guy who is being nice simply to do 'maintince on his sex object'. Just like you don't want to be her 'status symbol'.
As with any relationship advice, take it with a 400 pound grain of salt.
Woah-ho, back the fuck up.
Ok, I'll speak as a guy who's been interested in a girl with a boyfriend before, but who actually got a legit friendship out of it (while that was a nice reward in and of itself, that's not something I really plan on doing seriously again...youthful fuckups, what can you do): I agree that, if "friend-boy" thinks "boyfriend" is really a decent guy, he'll say it.
However, to say that a "true friend" would never make his feelings on another guy known if he thought the guy was an asshole doesn't work with me. If anything, that'd be blatant dishonesty done out of fear of making the girl upset, which isn't what a friend is supposed to do. If I'm truly friends with the girl in question, I'd be doing her a diservice if she was going out with a douchebag, and I didn't share my concerns with her.
She might get pissed, but tough, friends fight sometimes.
EDIT: As for the original post, I'd say, for the most part, she needs to learn on her own. I, too, am definately not one to get jealous easily, so I usually don't dwell on what other guys might be thinking about the girl I'm with.
However, as with all things, if I were to sense a situation where she might get really hurt in some way (physical, emotional, etc. etc.), and if it truly seemed she needed it, I'd give my viewpoint, but not in a way that came across as jealous, petty, threatened, etc. Otherwise, again, it's something that's probably best left for the girl to gain emotional experience from on her own.
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Honestly, someone who likes her a little now could blossom into a tension free relationship later, You may ruin later opportunities for healthy platonic friendships, don't do that. If some her happiness comes from her friends, let her have it. She'll start getting annoyed if every time she has a guy friend, you damn him as interested and in need of rejection. Especially if you push her to be manipulative so she can see their "true interests." You'll be making drama for her which may back fire. I would be very, very careful. Its not that I think your wrong in your acts, it just could become excessive and unnecessary.
Not every friendship will have an upfront verbal rejection romantically. I danced around this issue with a friend of mine for a summer (we we're both single, so its a little different) but we're both in relationships now, and the tensions gone. We both agreed that we're glad neither of us got serious and said "Uh, hey, lets talk about us." because it would have led to a rejection that was unnecessary but would have hurt us. Neither of us thought it could go on long term, we just recognized lust for what it was. If a guy doesn't plan on making a move (though I'm guessing the guy on IM seemed to be with the questions?) he could probably get over it and be friends. Just be a good judge.
I think the issue here is knowing how to seperate out relationship wreckers, from actual friends.
If your boyfriend allows one of those annoying 'I could totally steal your boyfriend' types into orbit, and insists that her fawning all over him is 'innocent'... It will get under your skin, even if your a saint.
People call them relationship wreckers for a reason.
It is your job to keep your social orbit clear of people like these.
Personally speaking, it is very important to show that you're not sexually attracted to a female friend, especially towards the boyfriend, otherwise you could just start a drama, something to avoid at all times.
Although I've never had a girlfriend, I am one to point out guys wanting to have sex with a female friend. For me, I usually tease people with it, their usual reply is "naaah, he's just a friend and he's a bit clingy, you shouldn't be so negative about hi--" at which point I'm usually bursting out laughing.
Then again, I'm a sad asshole.
It was pretty clear to me that quite a few of her friends were after her. I would never bring up that fact because honestly, I didn't care. I was of the mentality that "Yeah, I got what you want buddy. Better luck next time". However, if she would bring something about them up I would joke around with her about it. She wouldn't believe me of course, but whatever. The point where I did take some sort of action however, was when one of them had the guts to start touching her inappropriately (rubbing her thighs when she was in a short skirt, massaging her, whispering shit into her ear). At that point I just walked up to the guy and basically told him to back off. He listened. I knew what he was going to do next. He told my girlfriend that she should be careful around me as I seemed very hostile. When she told me this, we both had a good laugh about it but then I brought up the point about me joking about some of her guy friends being after her. Now she started to believe me. So i told her this: "Listen, I am not here to tell you who you can and can not see. It is not my place. However, this situation with this other guy is just gunna get worse and worse and hes just going to try and undermine me in every way possible, which will really bother me. So please, go confront him about this yourself and let him know outright that you are with me, and not him, and he's not to try and pull something like that again." She listened, and the guy was no longer an issue. So the short version is, don't sweat it. Unless one of them starts actually acting completely innapropriately, there is no real issue. And let her deal with the guy as opposed to you.
Wow that's a super asshole move on the other guy's part. Really fucking creepy too. Good on you for the calmness and rationality.
It's not that they consciously want to fuck every one of their female friends and are just waiting for the opportunity. It's more at a subconscious level, or maybe a distant hope or fantasy.
And when the girl they are orbiting gets involved with another guy, they can't help but feel extremely jealous, which naturally reflects on how they behave towards the guy. i.e. the OP's situation.
no.
only if it comes up. otherwise, leave it alone.
If they're crossing a line, yes. The tricky part is defining where that line is, and that's really up to you. To me, jealous guy-friends acting snippy toward you isn't crossing a line, but heavy flirting and invasive questions directed at her is. Figure out where your comfort zone is when it comes to writing off her "friend's" infatuations, and the point where it actually becomes threatening to you. Once you've got that defined, explain it to her, and talk it out between the two of you. If you're BOTH on the same page and know where the boundaries are, it'll be easier for her to tell the difference between a friend-because-i-like-you-guy and a REAL friend.
Seriously though, I disagree, only because I know myself and can assure you, I am different. And considering the idea that I am far from unique, I can safely assume there are more guys out there who don't want to have sex with all their female friends.
*Most* guys, not "everyone".
It really doesn't matter if it is if they want to fuck their brains or whatever. That really isn't the point.
Its the assholes that do stupid things like going behind your back to tell your girl you're an "asshole." Or that your "violent" because you asked them to back off sternly. Or the ones who tell YOU that they are going to break YOUR relationship all up. The most pathetic thing about it is that they act all "I'm just waiting my time." and they turn around and act like complete tools.
Sure. I got friends like that too. But the distinction between "most" and "every" is negligible, and definitely besides the point here. Not to mention I never claimed every guy is like that.
But I'll keep it quiet.
I think the best advice for the issue at hand is to consider just how much you trust your girlfriend. If you can build up a good level of trust in her then it shouldn't be too much of an issue. They can orbit her all they like if you know that she's going to keep a good boundary. Some guys might get led on and blown out but hey, that's what we do.
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In my own experience, I know what it's like to be attracted to one of my female friends. She had a serious boyfriend for quite a while, and while I had that instinct to try to undermine him, I never gave in to it - that might mean being mostly passive if she started conversations about him, but it's the right thing to do.
In any case, most girls are smart enough to see through the whole bashing-the-boyfriend thing if someone tries it. Especially if it's baseless, which we can only hope it would be in your case, Apothe0sis.