Leeching a neighbor's internet for the Wii/DS

TokyoRaver

Alright, here's a question.

IF I ASK MY NEIGHBOR'S PERMISSION, are there any issues I should be aware of using his network instead of my own? Will the DS/Wii be able to pick up his signal through the wall?

Ruckus

Illegal, stealing. Just because one of your neighbors broadcasts an unsecured network doesn't mean they are offering it free to anyone who can reach it.

That would be akin to plugging an extension cord into an outlet on the outside wall of a neighbor's house. The medium is different, concept is the same.

An open connection does not imply consent.

Glaeal

Discussing tips on stealing things is against the H/A rules.

TokyoRaver

Whoops.

I was figuring it was less than a big deal to leech wifi.

piL

There is a considerable grey area. It is a broadcasted signal, and radio stations (as far as I know), cannot sell the right to listen to their broadcast in such a way that if you're receiving a broadcast in your area and you haven't been permissed to listen to it, you can be arrested, and I don't see why this should be different. In addition, your broadcast is on my property, close it the hell up.

tony_important

Glaeal wrote:

Discussing tips on stealing things is against the H/A rules.

thanks mom

Ruckus

piL wrote:

There is a considerable grey area. It is a broadcasted signal, and radio stations (as far as I know), cannot sell the right to listen to their broadcast in such a way that if you're receiving a broadcast in your area and you haven't been permissed to listen to it, you can be arrested, and I don't see why this should be different. In addition, your broadcast is on my property, close it the hell up.

Ruckus wrote:

An open connection does not imply consent.

Data broadcasts are legislated differently than broadcast Radio.

Should everyone secure their connection? Yes.

Do they? No.

Does anyone have the right to use unsecured connections for free? Only if the provider grants permission.

Glaeal

tony_important wrote:

Glaeal wrote:

Discussing tips on stealing things is against the H/A rules.

thanks mom

Planning to stick around here for a while, aren't you?


And Ruckus, considering the title of the thread is "Stealing internet for the Wii/DS," I think we can safely judge intent here.

TokyoRaver

Okay, let's say I asked my next door neighbor on the right (who I have a good relationship with, so this isn't farfetched) to use his wireless.

Will I have problems going through the wall, and is there any issue I should be aware of why I shouldn't do this? Say he moves out; will I be able to use the friend codes assigned on my own connection when I finally man up and go wireless myself?

tony_important

Glaeal wrote:

Planning to stick around here for a while, aren't you?

Yes, I am! Thank you.

Tokyo, basically, as long as you ask it's legally ok.

You might have some issues with going through the wall, but it really depends on where his router is, and where your DS/Wii are located. If you can snatch some wireless for a computer in the same locations, then odds are you won't have any issues.

EDIT:

I don't know about the whole codes thing, but I guess someone else can help with that. :P

fforde

Your friend code is based on your console, doesnt matter how you are connected. As far as connection strength, there is only one way to find out. My router is about 30 feet from my Wii, seperated by several walls. I connect fine.

You should seriously just pick up a wireless router though. You can get a cheap D-Link for something like $60.

tony_important

Glaeal wrote:

"Stealing internet for the Wii/DS," I think we can safely judge intent here.

Tee hee...
no it's nawt

Ruckus

TokyoRaver wrote:

Okay, let's say I asked my next door neighbor on the right (who I have a good relationship with, so this isn't farfetched) to use his wireless.

Will I have problems going through the wall, and is there any issue I should be aware of why I shouldn't do this? Say he moves out; will I be able to use the friend codes assigned on my own connection when I finally man up and go wireless myself?

I don't know how the friend codes work, but I'd assume those are Wii specific and not connection specific.

As for the wireless range, it depends on number of walls, construction of said walls, and physical distance.

30 feet between access point and Wii, two or three walls with wood frame/plastic siding in between, ya, you're probably all right. Unfortunately, WiFi coverage isn't an exact science, the best way to tell it to get a laptop and check signal strength (WITH PERMISSION).

Also, if you know how to secure networks, maybe sweeten the deal with the neighbor by offering to secure his. Not only does it make your offer better, but you also make it harder for other people to leech and thus degrade his/your bandwidth.

piL

Ruckus wrote:

piL wrote:

There is a considerable grey area. It is a broadcasted signal, and radio stations (as far as I know), cannot sell the right to listen to their broadcast in such a way that if you're receiving a broadcast in your area and you haven't been permissed to listen to it, you can be arrested, and I don't see why this should be different. In addition, your broadcast is on my property, close it the hell up.

Ruckus wrote:

An open connection does not imply consent.

Data broadcasts are legislated differently than broadcast Radio.

Should everyone secure their connection? Yes.

Do they? No.

Does anyone have the right to use unsecured connections for free? Only if the provider grants permission.

Well then, there you go. I had assumed it was an unlegislated grey area. If there's law, that's it.

Also, there's this which I use to get a wifi signal when I'm at a house without wifi.

tony_important

Yeah!

Offer some help in exchange for internets!

That's actually a good idea.

Ruckus

tony_important wrote:

Yeah!

Offer some help in exchange for internets!

That's actually a good idea.

I try and crank out the occasional one...

a penguin

One thing that noone ever brings up in these discussions is the legality of the person who is actually paying for the connection to share it in the first place. There is most likely a clause in the service agreement with the internet provider that prohibits sharing of the connection. So, it's illegal.

edit: Charter's looks like this.

Charter Communications wrote:

2. General Subscriber Responsibilities and Warranties

Customer warrants that he or she is at least 18 years of age.
Customer agrees that the subscription is personal to Customer and agrees not to assign, transfer, resell or sublicense Customer’s rights as a subscriber unless specifically allowed by this Agreement. The Service and the Charter Equipment shall be used only by Customer and by members of Customer’s immediate household living with Customer at the same address. Customer acknowledges that Customer is executing this Agreement on behalf of all persons who use the Charter Equipment and/or Service by means of the Customer Equipment. Customer agrees that Customer is solely responsible and liable for any and all breaches of the terms and conditions of this Agreement, whether such breach results from Customer’s use of the Service or by another using Customer’s computer.

Ruckus

a penguin wrote:

One thing that noone ever brings up in these discussions is the legality of the person who is actually paying for the connection to share it in the first place. There is most likely a clause in the service agreement with the internet provider that prohibits sharing of the connection. So, it's illegal.

edit: Charter's looks like this.

Charter Communications wrote:

2. General Subscriber Responsibilities and Warranties

Customer warrants that he or she is at least 18 years of age.
Customer agrees that the subscription is personal to Customer and agrees not to assign, transfer, resell or sublicense Customer’s rights as a subscriber unless specifically allowed by this Agreement. The Service and the Charter Equipment shall be used only by Customer and by members of Customer’s immediate household living with Customer at the same address. Customer acknowledges that Customer is executing this Agreement on behalf of all persons who use the Charter Equipment and/or Service by means of the Customer Equipment. Customer agrees that Customer is solely responsible and liable for any and all breaches of the terms and conditions of this Agreement, whether such breach results from Customer’s use of the Service or by another using Customer’s computer.

Yes, if the neighbor's agreement with the ISP has a clause like this one then the neighbor would be in breach of contract if they provided wireless internet to TokyoRaver, and would most likely face penalties such as termination of service and/or having to pay a certain amount in fees (like when you try and cancel your cell contract and they ding you for $20 per month of remaining contract).

I think that would be exclusively the contract holder's problem though, other than the ISP possibly blacklisting Raver.

Thanatos

Really, you should just get your own wireless router. You'll have better connectivity, you can secure it so you won't have a giant security hole there, and you won't be screwed if the guy ever moves out/changes his mind/whatever.

khain

Ruckus wrote:

a penguin wrote:

One thing that noone ever brings up in these discussions is the legality of the person who is actually paying for the connection to share it in the first place. There is most likely a clause in the service agreement with the internet provider that prohibits sharing of the connection. So, it's illegal.

edit: Charter's looks like this.

Charter Communications wrote:

2. General Subscriber Responsibilities and Warranties

Customer warrants that he or she is at least 18 years of age.
Customer agrees that the subscription is personal to Customer and agrees not to assign, transfer, resell or sublicense Customer’s rights as a subscriber unless specifically allowed by this Agreement. The Service and the Charter Equipment shall be used only by Customer and by members of Customer’s immediate household living with Customer at the same address. Customer acknowledges that Customer is executing this Agreement on behalf of all persons who use the Charter Equipment and/or Service by means of the Customer Equipment. Customer agrees that Customer is solely responsible and liable for any and all breaches of the terms and conditions of this Agreement, whether such breach results from Customer’s use of the Service or by another using Customer’s computer.

Yes, if the neighbor's agreement with the ISP has a clause like this one then the neighbor would be in breach of contract if they provided wireless internet to TokyoRaver, and would most likely face penalties such as termination of service and/or having to pay a certain amount in fees (like when you try and cancel your cell contract and they ding you for $20 per month of remaining contract).

I think that would be exclusively the contract holder's problem though, other than the ISP possibly blacklisting Raver.

It probably depends on the ISP, though I would assume most do have some sort of clause like that. Though the chance of the ISP actually caring or finding out that you are sharing a WiFi connection is slim. I still suggest getting your own wireless router though, you can configure it yourself if you have any problems and you don't have to worry about the neighbor changing his mind or turning off his connection for some reason.

DynamiteKid

Surely illegal is illegal whether it's consented or not?

And I'm not sure how this guy will react to you swanning up to him and going 'hey, can I steal the internet you pay for with your/your parents' hard-earned cash?'

Thanatos

DynamiteKid wrote:

Surely illegal is illegal whether it's consented or not?

And I'm not sure how this guy will react to you swanning up to him and going 'hey, can I steal the internet you pay for with your/your parents' hard-earned cash?'

If it's consented, it's not illegal.

I mean, otherwise, you're equating rape with consensual sex.

a penguin

It's illegal because the owner can't actually consent. He doesn't have the ability to legally give it away, as per his agreement with his service provider.

It's like me consenting for you to have sex with my mom.

Thanatos

a penguin wrote:

It's illegal because the owner can't actually consent. He doesn't have the ability to legally give it away, as per his agreement with his service provider.

It's like me consenting for you to have sex with my mom.

That's not illegal, it's just potentially a violation of his contract. A subtle but very important distinction.

TokyoRaver

You know, based off that contract, letting your friends use your internet when they come over is a violation of terms.


Anyway, Time Warner is the exclusive provider in our building, and I too am a subscriber, they seem pretty lax even considering my astonishing bandwidth usage.

I'm not too worried about violating their terms of service as they typically send you a warning letter firstoff. If they bugged out over anything, I'd stop doing it.

And holy crap a lot of you guys are anal, but thanks to those of you who provided advice (and also those of you who warned me)

If I do decide to borrow the neighbor's net, I'll definitely offer to secure his network in exchange for Wii/DS access (as I don't need it for anything else)

fightinfilipino

TokyoRaver wrote:

And holy crap a lot of you guys are anal, but thanks to those of you who provided advice (and also those of you who warned me)

it's not anal, it's in deference to a) the rules of H/A and the forums as a whole and b) the fact that penny-arcade is provided for free by Tycho and Gabe and it would be a real goddamned shame if some packet kiddie caused trouble with the law for them.

they have shut down the forums before for other non-law-related-but-equally-stupid-shit.

and besides, mooching off another's wi-fi connection without their permission is an act of dickery.

edit: sorry, but this is technically breaching someone else's network, which i have strong feelings about.

Azio

While it is a morally dickish thing to do, there is technically no law against using an unsecured wireless network. Even if there was, you could just say you didn't know and thought the internets were everywhere now. Because most devices just automatically connect to the strongest open network they can find unless otherwise configured.

teh wikipedia wrote:

The legality of wardriving in the United States is not clearly defined. There has never been any conviction for wardriving, and there is the untested argument that the 802.11 and DHCP protocols operate on behalf of the owner giving consent to use the network, but not if the user has other reason to know that there is no consent.

As for Canada, my understanding is that the courts looked at it and said "we don't give a shit."

Ruckus

Azio wrote:

While it is a morally dickish thing to do, there is technically no law against using an unsecured wireless network. I think there is in the states, but it hasn't ever been used to prosecute anyone and you could just say you didn't know and thought the internets were everywhere now. Because most devices just automatically connect to the strongest open network they can find unless otherwise configured.

As for Canada, my understanding is that the courts looked at it and said "we don't give a shit."

In Canada, people stealing WiFi can be prosecuted for Theft of Telecommunications.

Snork

As far as asking the guy goes, someone said it would be jerkful to ask the guy to leech off of his Wi-Fi. Aside from the fact that you're asking to leech off of him, why would that really bother the guy? It's not like he pays more money for however many people are using his network. I would be pissed if someone was using my wireless without telling me, but if they asked beforehand it wouldn't really matter to me. It's not like you're going to be sucking up that much internets, right?

Azio

Ruckus wrote:

Azio wrote:

While it is a morally dickish thing to do, there is technically no law against using an unsecured wireless network. I think there is in the states, but it hasn't ever been used to prosecute anyone and you could just say you didn't know and thought the internets were everywhere now. Because most devices just automatically connect to the strongest open network they can find unless otherwise configured.

As for Canada, my understanding is that the courts looked at it and said "we don't give a shit."

In Canada, people stealing WiFi can be prosecuted for Theft of Telecommunications.

I'm pretty sure it only counts if the network is secured and you crack your way into it. Besides, anyone trying to prosecute you for haplessly connecting to an unsecured network wouldn't have a leg to stand on because most products just automatically hook up to the nearest open network without user intervention.

TokyoRaver

fightinfilipino wrote:

TokyoRaver wrote:

And holy crap a lot of you guys are anal, but thanks to those of you who provided advice (and also those of you who warned me)

it's not anal, it's in deference to a) the rules of H/A and the forums as a whole and b) the fact that penny-arcade is provided for free by Tycho and Gabe and it would be a real goddamned shame if some packet kiddie caused trouble with the law for them.

they have shut down the forums before for other non-law-related-but-equally-stupid-shit.

and besides, mooching off another's wi-fi connection without their permission is an act of dickery.

edit: sorry, but this is technically breaching someone else's network, which i have strong feelings about.

Well, if I choose to go this route, I'll probably ask Jerry, this old guy who lives to my left. He's been a really cool neighbor and tolerates my DJing hobby with not so much as a peep (I once asked him if he heard it and he said "yeah, but it's not bad and you have some good tunes, keep it up"
(my neighbors on the other side, on the other hand, have mercilessly harassed me)

Anyway, funny story...I kinda started one of the threads that took down one of PA's earlier forum incarnations...but it was some jackass that latched onto one of the things I said (Sir Robin or something) that really caused the meltdown. That was back in the days of the Pit of Hate. Perhaps a few of you know the thread of which I speak, but it's unkosher to bring up the subject, so I'll let that dead dog lie.

Also, all I can tell you is my PSP, over at my friend's house, latches onto a neighbor's network and stays there, and I can't get it off of it, mainly because of my own incompetency. Over here the strongest signal it receives is a protected one, so I actually can't take wifi over at my own place on my PSP. Which is why I was wondering about the Wii/DS.

Ruckus

Azio wrote:

Ruckus wrote:

Azio wrote:

While it is a morally dickish thing to do, there is technically no law against using an unsecured wireless network. I think there is in the states, but it hasn't ever been used to prosecute anyone and you could just say you didn't know and thought the internets were everywhere now. Because most devices just automatically connect to the strongest open network they can find unless otherwise configured.

As for Canada, my understanding is that the courts looked at it and said "we don't give a shit."

In Canada, people stealing WiFi can be prosecuted for Theft of Telecommunications.

I'm pretty sure it only counts if the network is secured and you crack your way into it. Besides, anyone trying to prosecute you for haplessly connecting to an unsecured network wouldn't have a leg to stand on because most products just automatically hook up to the nearest open network without user intervention.

Nope, in this circumstance the law creates a reversal of the Burden of Proof, where the offender must provide proof that they had the right to trespass. Additionally, people have been prosecuted under this law for using a service provided for free (a freely available hotspot, for instance) outside of the agreed upon terms.

I remember at least one circumstance where a man was prosecuted for Theft of Telecommunications when he used a free hotspot service to download pornographic material. Because the hotspot offered implied consent based on acceptance of posted rules, and the defendant broke those rules, the implied consent was withdrawn, and the defendant was not authorized to use the hotspot, and was therefore guilty of Theft of Telecommunications.

stigweard

You do not want to be prosecuted under that act either. Even if you don't see jailtime, you can forget about ever leaving Canada now that you have a record for a federal crime. You aren't going to claim ignorance and get away with it either. Ignorance of the law is not a valid defense.

tony_important

Despite all the legal mumbo-jumbo...

Your best solution is really to go out and buy a wireless router.

You'll be set.

If you can't afford one, ask for one for Christmas or a birthday or something.

Better yet, if you can't buy one, ask your most technologically addicted friend; odds are he/she'll either be itching for a reason to upgrade his system (and sell you the old wireless) OR, he/she will have already done so.

But I'd really go with buying a router yourself. That's what I did.

DynamiteKid

Snork wrote:

As far as asking the guy goes, someone said it would be jerkful to ask the guy to leech off of his Wi-Fi. Aside from the fact that you're asking to leech off of him, why would that really bother the guy? It's not like he pays more money for however many people are using his network. I would be pissed if someone was using my wireless without telling me, but if they asked beforehand it wouldn't really matter to me. It's not like you're going to be sucking up that much internets, right?

It's not that I was talking about. I was talking about the 'I pay for this you bastard, go get your own internet' angle.