help from Graffiti artists/know-it-alls...Early 20th century graffiti (1900-1940s)

winter_combat_knight

Hey guys,

im doing a university project which involves illustrating backgrounds for a fictional 2D point and click adventure game. it is set in New York City in the 1930s. One of my environments, is a back-alley behind a bar. I want to give the piece a good sense of realism, so im wanting to add graffiti to the walls. the only problem is, i dont have a clue about the history of graffiti. so ive got a few q's for any graffiti artists on penny arcade...

* is graffiti of the early 20th century, essentially the same as modern day graffiti? I dont want to put modern styled graffiti into a scene which is supposed to represent the 1930s.
* does anyone know of any website links where i can see references of ealy 20th century graffiti?

Any help would be good. ive looked in wikipedia, but havnt had much luck. Cheers .

bsjezz

well you're going to have to think about access of materials, and political context. in terms of access of materials, spray paint didn't even exist back then, let alone poscas etc - anything articulately detailed and colourful would be expensive and take a lot of time. that doesn't necessarily mean that kind of graffiti wouldn't exist - murals have been around for eons, and you can paint onto a wall anything you can paint onto a canvas, but the fact that it's an investment means it might come in the form of an advertisement, or some kind of underground campaign. that's where the political side of things come in - think stuff like prohibition

other than that, any graffiti would be on a very small scale - like a scratched out engraving, or a chalk drawing. wikipedia traces back to stuff like bozo texino and, later, kilroy - something small and iconic, viral almost, and simple to reproduce

honestly, while graffiti has been around forever, the kind of 'back alley' image you're looking to recreate probably didn't exist back then. if you got away with it it'd be small and simple enough to be plausibe, or hugely ornate enough to be unique

that said i don't know anything specific and just enjoyed looking into it quickly - chances are someone out there knows more than me

winter_combat_knight

cool bsjezz. very good points you've made. i like your idea about steering towards more political issues from the time. It may be subtle, but it will be more believable than the clichéd back-alley graffiti art everywhere in NYC today. haha. like those links you posted. again cheers for the response. helps put things into perspective a little more.

Seldom

yeah, you can't do 'modern' graffiti for this project. bright, bubbly, letters and wildstyles are going to look totally out of place in the 1930's, and it couldn't be possible with the lack of materials.

i'd run with old political postering and propaganda.

winter_combat_knight

sounds like thats a good to go direction. btw, heres the scene so far, just so ppl know what the setting is kinda like. Im leaving the dirt, cracks, graffiti till last.

Movitz

I'm not getting a very 30s feel from that place, with the garage door and all. Maybe that's just me. But the air conditioner has to go :P

Otherwise a pretty nice setting, it gives me some sort of Another World feeling (if anyone remembers that game). As stated above I'd go with posters of propaganda or burlesque-type late night shows

GrimmyTOA

Also, I don't think New York had dumpsters in the thirties. At least, not ones shaped like that. Think more like packing crates and stuff like that. Maybe swing-open garage doors would be more thematic.

When exactly in the thirties is this set? Depending on the specific date, your graffiti could refer to the depression, the new deal, the rise of Hitler, something like that. Posters and stuff like that too, could be useful. An eviction notice plastered across a doorway, maybe.

NotYou

no garage door, the ladder is too new looking, I dont think they had tires that big back in the 30's that were just lying around, trash cans aren't 30's style, no A/C back then, no garage doors like that, etc.

Basically you need to find some old photos and work off of those rather than your imagination. Reference is key!

EskimoDave

The place would have been build pre-1900 most likely. New York is an old city.

And is it a speakeasy, or is it post-1933?

Madpanda

Look up information on hobo codes and markings, they had a icon set to denote specifics of the place "talk about god to get food" "mean dog" etc. I am not saying cover the area with them but having 1 or 2 thrown in would fit the time period. They were around quarter dollar size.

locomotiveman

If you were to make the dumpster into a large basicly fenced area with several trash cans it would be better. As mentioned the ladder is to modern, think more along the lines of a fire escape. Have you seen or read any of Eisner's The Spirit?

winter_combat_knight

Man, so many great points. thanks for the heads up on the air conditioner! WTH was i thinking?

no garage door, the ladder is too new looking, I dont think they had tires that big back in the 30's that were just lying around, trash cans aren't 30's style, no A/C back then, no garage doors like that, etc.

Cool. Cheers for the pointers. I probably need to find references for the fire escapes/garbage bins etc.

When exactly in the thirties is this set? Depending on the specific date, your graffiti could refer to the depression, the new deal, the rise of Hitler, something like that. Posters and stuff like that too, could be useful. An eviction notice plastered across a doorway, maybe.

1933, but lets just say, early 1930's. That probably gives me a range of themes to research into. Cool ideas. Thanks.

Not enough time to respond to everything, but cheers for all the adivce/.crits. really helps. Thanks everyone..

locomotiveman wrote: »

If you were to make the dumpster into a large basicly fenced area with several trash cans it would be better. As mentioned the ladder is to modern, think more along the lines of a fire escape. Have you seen or read any of Eisner's The Spirit?

No, but i just looked it up. man, that is a great reference.

Seldom

someone mentioned burlesque type stuff, i reckon that'd be pretty rad. if it's that kind of an alleyway you could throw up some old and dilapidated pin up, showgirl and burlesque posters.

most definitely lose the A/C etc that was mentioned above.

LadyM

Since it's depression era, maybe something snarky about Herbert Hoover, like "Welcome to Hooverville" in a slummy area.

winter_combat_knight

cool. thanks for the advice guys. i removed the air conditioner unit (haha) and roller door.



Just adding more contrasts to give the piece a nicer mood. cheers all. gonna do some research tomorrow.

Chop Logic

Just coming in here to throw this out there: There was absolutely no graffiti as we think of graffiti in the thirties or forties. The "kids/people writing a fake name over and over to get famous" didn't start until way later, and any of that would look totally out of place. The only people doing graffiti at this this would have been hobos, and I'm pretty sure that was only on freight trains with special, oily chalk. Look up pictures of hobo monikers and old freight train graffiti. The stuff you're going to find was done with oily chalk and was usually just a quick picture (a face, a guy on an island, a train, a city, etc.) done with a few with a few quick lines, maybe a phrase or a name, just like this:



That kind of stuff would not look totally out of place in a thirties alleyway.

But yeah, as someone who is really into graffiti, just don't think of it in any way as the graffiti you see today, that just didn't exist back then.

GrimmyTOA

Chop Logic wrote: »

But yeah, as someone who is really into graffiti, just don't think of it in any way as the graffiti you see today, that just didn't exist back then.

There would have been all sorts of political propagandizing/personal attacks/for a good time call "Greenwich 432" (or something like that anyway) type stuff, though. That's been attested to as far back as... well, Pompeii, off the top of my head. Probably earlier.

Chop Logic

GrimmyTOA wrote: »

Chop Logic wrote: »

But yeah, as someone who is really into graffiti, just don't think of it in any way as the graffiti you see today, that just didn't exist back then.

There would have been all sorts of political propagandizing/personal attacks/for a good time call "Greenwich 432" (or something like that anyway) type stuff, though. That's been attested to as far back as... well, Pompeii, off the top of my head. Probably earlier.

Yeah, I'm just saying, there was no "My tag name is SKIMP and I'm going to write it everywhere to get famous" outside of the hobo community, and there were absolutely no pieces or throws, just tags. Nothing but tags, if you could even call them that. They would look nothing like tags today, of the most part.

If you're actually making this a part of your scene, the writer Navy 8 is a current graffiti artist that does hobo monikers. Because he's current day and if a good artist, his hobo moniker stuff is actually really nice. It might be a bit too modern though if you really are concerned about making your scene authentic.

AtomBomb

Yeah, I don't think you're going to see much of what we call graffiti in the 30's. People would still deface stuff. If there was a poster or something it wouldn't look too out of place if someone drew on it. I probably wouldn't include anything like that unless you have to.

Some things I would do:

Alleys should be narrower.
Road surface is probably brick and pretty fucked up.
Ladders don't go down to ground level.
No garbage bags in cans.
Windows were generally smaller. Getting a flat pane of glass that size was pretty extravagant.

locomotiveman

There are still alleys in New York that are paved with cobblestones and the like. If you hunt around on this site you will find ALL sorts of interesting stuff left over in New York left over from the past.

Trentus

I like the idea of posters and anti-prohibition slogans. I can just see some half torn prohibition propaganda and maybe a burlesque poster with a slogan scrawled over it.

L*2*G*X

There was this photographer called weegee (arthur felig) whoe did thousands of crime photos in NY in that era. I once saw an art book with his pictures that had lots of alleyways in it... perhaps check your local library (big place, lots of books).