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Law School
WeAre138
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Hello All! I have searched for this topic, found little regarding such and have taken it upon myself to ask our esteemed forum colleagues for advice and such. If there is a more relevant thread I missed, please direct me to to it!
I am applying for (and have been accepted) to Law School, for this upcoming term; Fall 2009. I was wondering if there were any Law Students, graduates or any graduate students in general who might have any advice or "Wish I had known this when I started..." sort of wisdom to share.
A few points:
1. I have a decent idea about what I am getting myself into i.e: long hours, little feedback, one exam per class per year, zero social life. I can read and write (methinks) however.
2. I understand my reasons for going to Law School. I have a particular field of interest in what I think will be a growing market in the next 10-20 years. I am not attending simply to continue college fun, because I couldn't think of other things to do or because my undergrad degree was in politics.
3. I am aware of the cost and reality of the legal job market--at least in the sense that I have no illusions about big firm work nor am I in denial about the costs of loan repayment coupled with a modest salary ( I am not going to a top 14 law school, so no Grisham's The Firm perks or paycheck coming my way)
Basically, I want to hear from people who have either gone to Law School or are thinking about it. I have met a ton of lawyers . Some hate their job, some love it, some don't do it anymore, etc... I have been on law school blogs recently, but everyone is so tunnel visioned and sure of EXACTLY what they are going to do with every part of their lives before, during and after school. I wanted to submit, for your consideration, this question. PA forumers are good people and any and all advice is certainly appreciated.
(PS: If you want to tell me to fuck off and forget law school, do so! I am trying to make considerable life choice here. Tell me if you think I am making a mistake!)
I am applying for (and have been accepted) to Law School, for this upcoming term; Fall 2009. I was wondering if there were any Law Students, graduates or any graduate students in general who might have any advice or "Wish I had known this when I started..." sort of wisdom to share.
A few points:
1. I have a decent idea about what I am getting myself into i.e: long hours, little feedback, one exam per class per year, zero social life. I can read and write (methinks) however.
2. I understand my reasons for going to Law School. I have a particular field of interest in what I think will be a growing market in the next 10-20 years. I am not attending simply to continue college fun, because I couldn't think of other things to do or because my undergrad degree was in politics.
3. I am aware of the cost and reality of the legal job market--at least in the sense that I have no illusions about big firm work nor am I in denial about the costs of loan repayment coupled with a modest salary ( I am not going to a top 14 law school, so no Grisham's The Firm perks or paycheck coming my way)
Basically, I want to hear from people who have either gone to Law School or are thinking about it. I have met a ton of lawyers . Some hate their job, some love it, some don't do it anymore, etc... I have been on law school blogs recently, but everyone is so tunnel visioned and sure of EXACTLY what they are going to do with every part of their lives before, during and after school. I wanted to submit, for your consideration, this question. PA forumers are good people and any and all advice is certainly appreciated.
(PS: If you want to tell me to fuck off and forget law school, do so! I am trying to make considerable life choice here. Tell me if you think I am making a mistake!)
Dinosaurs can happen at anytime!
WeAre138 on
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I suppose there is a part of me that's in it for the money, but I, like you, make no presumptions about making six figures after I graduate. I do, however, aspire to that goal. I also have certain fields that greatly interest me (aviation and immigration to name a few) but I fully expect my career path to change over time. You should too. You might get to law school, dominate the opposition and end up in the top 10% of your class - then you're looking at The Firm perks.
On the whole I think your attitude is great, you've got what appears to be quite a level-head with regard to law school.
For the sake of a balanced post, the blog is mostly negative, but I also know a number of people who have not regretted law school.
Honestly though it's not as bad as everyone says though. I have plenty of time for a social life (except 2 weeks before finals). As with all things with life the key is balance. Make sure that you have a social life otherwise you'll burnout before you're even halfway through. Attend the socials and mixers, law students (all of them) are big drinkers, meet people and network. Even if the people are annoying talk to them for 10 min over a beer, you're gonna need contacts when you get out.
Also, professors will tell you to brief cases for class, fuck that. Get 6 different colored highlighters and use them for different things. Blue = procedural history, orange = facts, yellow = law etc etc. You'll thank me later.
Since you are most likely going full time you won't be allowed to work your first year. But during your first summer get a clerk job at any firm that will take you. Most likely you'll be doing bitch work, filing complaints, motions, doing deposition abstracts, completing discovery requests. But this is your best window in to the workings of what everyday life in a firm is like. You have no idea how many working attorneys nowadays have no idea of even how to spindle a motion, it's kinda sad.
If you don't mind me asking what is that field of interest you are interested in? Also don't have any illusions about being in the courtroom unless you're going to be a state's/district attorney or PD. Even in a litigation house almost all cases settle. I think the national average is about a 99% settle rate or close to it.
If you have any other questions feel free to ask.
This, along with nearly every other law school forum/blog, is so negative that you should avoid it. Reading this stuff written by bitter, burned-out students is a surefire way to question your decision to attend and ruin any kind of new experiences for you. These people really think they're the canary in the coal mine talking about jobs, money, and life during law school.
School is hard, put forth your best effort in every arena and maybe you won't end up jaded miserable sociopaths like the people who write these things.
When you hear about the job market now, yes I'm not going to sugar coat things, it's bad now. But you won't really have to deal with that for three years, and hopefully things will pick up by then (if not time to stock up on bottled water and spam right?). Bottom line, don't listen to these blogs they are full of dropouts/failouts who just burned out.
Simpsonia; I would like to ask you more about school. I have heard about the briefing in Technicolor and I am sure it is a good as it sounds. To me, it seems that new students tend to brief just to have something to do. I don't mind looking like an ass in class (provided I don't lose points), but I would like to avoid silly busy work. I have studied politics and philosophy, so long reading, convoluted writing and analytical summaries/narrowing down complex points into sizable laymen explanations was my undergrad bread and butter. I can memorize/cram/ deal with annoying class mates fine.
Good to hear ppl drink; I'll find me a bar. I guess I would put it best this way. How difficult is it to fall behind and then catch up. I have no problem living 2 weeks of scholastic hell...the fact is I almost live for late night/finals weeks like that. I just do not want to bust ass as a clues 1L for weeks, thinking I am doing thinks different, missing out on fun, just to be stressed and to tired/confused/burnt out to perform well. Even if Im not all that stressed out, I would be pissed that I worked 4+ hours a day to get the same grades I might for less work. Not trying to sound too lazy, I just want to work smarter not harder.
PS; I didn't decide to go to law school based on Law & Order episodes and have NO delusions about courtroom work. Although I totally want to be William Shattner, on Boston Legal or off.
What? Barelylegal is hilarious social commentary. It's my all-time favorite legal blog. School isn't that hard, when it is hard it's rewarding. As always, the issue is the cost-benefit analysis. You say you're going into all this clear-eyed, but what's your plan for having a job in the field you think will be growing in the next 10-20 years. What is that field?
I have a friend who goes to law school. Sometimes I instant message her when she is in class, and one day she sent my the notes she took from class. She claims everyone types everything the professor says, her notes even had umms and ahhs in it because she didn't want to miss anything. Apparently some teachers like to pick one person out each class and ask them all the questions. I'd hate to be that person.
Either way I hope you like your new adventure and as long as you enjoy what you are doing or enjoy what you will be doing I'm sure your muscle through like everyone else.
Law school work isn't hard. It is stressful and awful and not something anyone enjoys. But it is completely doable, if you have the will to actually do it. You just have to remember to read for class. Every single day. And always ask questions and volunteer to answer questions.
It's all relative.
Also; law students are ridiculous whiners, which is why you always hear their bitch stories. Must be the type of person drawn to doing a law degree.
(fyi I am a lawyer so i'm not completely talking out of my ass)
One thing that I will recommend is choice of school. Obviously T14 schools have great placement regardless of location. However a lot of other schools will not have as good of chances. Which is why I, personally, think its a better idea to go to a school that is in a major city (especially if it's one which you could see yourself living in.) My school is in the lower half of tier 1 and while my job prospects around the country may not be as good as they are locally, I will most likely have better odds within my city than people from schools which are much higher ranked but not local. There is a large alumni population locally and it adds to a much higher overall recognition rate.
If you have any other questions feel free to ask.
Some advice (some of which may be common sense):
--Don't bother taking classes solely because they're recommended for passing the bar. BarBri will set you up with everything you need. Take classes that interest you, and if they're bar subjects too, super.
--Similarly, don't worry too much about the bar. Do the work and you'll pass. It's a memorization test, not a test of your ability. Look at it this way: there are a lot of really, really, really incompetent people who're licensed to practice. You'll be fine.
--Do some sort of extracurricular. Law Review, Moot Court Board, Trial Advocacy competitions, membership in the Order of the Coif -- all of these things (a) look great on your resume and (b) tend to be pretty interesting (well, except for spading if you work on a law review. Spading fucking sucks).
--Visit the profs you like during their office hours, even if you don't really have any urgent questions. I've never yet met a professor who was unwilling to provide job advice/connections/letters of recommendation/etc. for a student who took the time to engage with the prof.
--Don't worry too much about getting a job during the school year. At least at my school, there was a lot of pressure to do so, but I don't think it amounted to much in the end. Much more important, I think, are your summer jobs.
--Speaking of summer jobs: working as a "summer associate" at a law firm bears as much resemblance to actually working as a junior associate at a law firm as does watching Animal Planet to getting eaten by a python. Summer associate jobs are like getting paid to watch an infomercial. When you're actually working there, the partners will not regularly take you out for sushi lunches and regale you with witty stories about the profession. That's because they'll be too busy yelling at you for not having gotten through the 2500 pages of documents you're assigned to review prior to the date on which the Rule 34(b)(2) response is due. Which, by the way, is tomorrow.
--Speaking of law firms: Not all of them are that bad.
I'm sure there's more that I'll think of.
But IMHO: Colorado > Albany, in respect to quality of life. THanks again for the advice. I feel that I won't really appreciate it as much until I get to school. Thanks again for all the advice!
Plus in my experience the part time program students are so much more laid back and cool than the full time people, proportionally anyways. Plus it is much easier to get a much higher ranking in that first year given the lax competition of the part time program, and give you a shot at top 10% -> summer associate gig which you would interview for at the start of your 2L year.
Same here.
Not all schools offer a part time program, and it might actually be a minority of schools, I'm not sure. Best bet would be to just browse their website (tuition area would be a good start). Barring that you could always call/email too I guess. When I got my wait list notification it came with a form they wanted me to fill out and fax back regarding which program I wanted to be considered for.
American did this for me. Asked if I wanted to apply for part time (I did) and fill out the form yadda, yadda. I'm just curious as to why a better school WLed me and a lesser school rejected me. I suppose mass wait lists.
Either way, not holding my breath.
Don't do anything to prepare; seriously. Plan some fun stuff to do over the summer, relax, read lots of non-law books (its the last time you will for a while). There's nothing you can study that will help you out prior to law school. Besides knowing how to read and how to think critically (which I hope you can already do) there are no innate skills required. Don't rent The Paper Chase, and if you've seen it try to forget you ever did.
If your school is like mine, you won't get a book list for your first semester classes. This is specifically to prevent any would-be gunners from trying to read ahead (as if reading ahead would actually help). Unfortunately, this means you will likely have to buy your textbooks at full price at the bookstore because you won't have time to order them off Amazon or wherever.
If my school required summer reading, or if the student body strove to read all the law textbooks over the summer, that sure wouldn't be a place I would want to attend. Are gunners common? Luckily I already have some travel lined up, and some books and video games I've been meaning to finish and I'm trying to do all that I can to relax before school, despite the fact I'm getting married in the fall. But as far as day-to-day going to school is concerned, what should I expect? Just bring a laptop? Could I use a netbook (our computing standards seem pretty loose) instead? Is there some expectation of a dress code or can I still show up in a sweatshirt and flip-flops? Do I need to lug the textbooks anywhere or can they just stay at home/in a study carrel? What about lunch?
I'm sure some of these questions are outright dumb, but nobody I know has really gone to law school recently and from the older lawyers I know it seems like law schools may have changed a bit since their graduation. Just trying to see what I should expect on a practical basis for the next three years.
I don't really have any gunners in my section, but I've heard some horror stories from other sections. Just don't be that guy who thinks he's the next Scalia and you'll be fine. Just remember that when someone starts going off about the law that they don't know any more than you do.
If you're cool with using a netbook to take notes, then go for it. I personally would not use one, but that's just me. You'll have longer writing assignments eventually, so you may need something with a bigger screen in addition to the netbook.
There's no real dress code, at least at my school. It's all up to you how you dress. I wouldn't show up for office hours in your PJs if you want to be taken seriously, though. I usually wear jeans and either a buttoned shirt, long sleeve tee, or sweatshirt depending on how lazy I'm feeling that day.
My school has lockers, so I leave all my books there and just take what I need home each night. I do a lot of reading at school, so I'm not constantly carrying 30 lbs of textbooks around. I also have a bit of a commute so that would just suck. I usually bring my lunch; it's way cheaper than buying food each day. My school has fridges in the lounges for people to leave their stuff.
Oh, and 1L year is actually not nearly as bad as its cracked up to be. You may be overwhelmed at first, which is fine, but the workload is actually fairly manageable.
2L year is when you'll be at the library every fucking night and all day on the weekends trying to get your work done.