Jack Cafferty: Parents, your kids aren't that special

Dalboz

I found this interesting and a bit surprising. It's an excerpt from Jack Cafferty's new book that was put up on CNN:

Jack Cafferty wrote:

I never presumed to have any more answers about being a parent than anybody else.

There are no perfect parents, perfect kids, perfect families -- only degrees of dysfunction.

You get up in the morning and do the best you can. At the end of the day you say, "Okay, that wasn't so bad, let's try it again tomorrow." Some of my instincts were pretty good and some of them were awful.

I did stay engaged and didn't say to hell with being a father when my first marriage ended. With the younger girls, I eventually made the choice to clean up my alcoholism before I pushed things to the point of no return. But most of the credit does to my second wife Carol; to the girls; and to God Almighty. Ultimately, I've just been very fortunate.

I don't know the status of parenting in America. But I know a little about the status of education in America. Parents' growing inability to impose manners and limits on their kids when the kids are in school is reflected in record dropout rates, as well as teen drug and alcohol abuse, teen sex, and unwed pregnancies. Maybe it's parenting that's on the decline, more than the schools.

Exhibit A: My wife and I have just been seated for dinner when the maitre d' walks over and seats a young family at the table next to us and the kids start carrying on like orangutans on a leash.

The parents are going, "Timmy, that's not nice, don't throw your food, stop stuffing your mashed potatoes up your nose." Are mom and dad having fun yet, picking food up off the floor, apologizing to people like us, and wiping food flung across the table off their faces?

Some parents still have this attitude that their kids are too special to be burdened by discipline. And the rest of us are supposed to put up with their little mutants. That attitude really pisses me off.

I hate to break it to them, but the kids aren't special, and I don't have to put up with their behavior. If you can't control your obnoxious little brats, leave them home.

They don't belong out in public annoying other people, period. I don't remember a generation of kids ever so indulged and enabled to behave so badly. What's going on?

I remember as a kid I was expected to behave myself out in public or suffer the wrath of one very angry father. And of all the things that used to piss him off, those expectations didn't seem unreasonable. Something's gone terribly wrong here. My guess is it has to do with the breakdown of authority, the collapse of strong family structure, and the abdication of parental responsibility, dictated in part by the necessity that both parents work.

Plus, we have a whole generation of Baby Boomers who are too busy feeling entitled to prolong their own self-indulgent, self-absorbed adolescences to rein in their own kids.

Just a theory.

The thing I find surprising about it is how stereotypical it seems of the rantings of an angry old man. All it needs is the phrase "Back in my day" added to it. While I understand the views, and a part of me wants to agree that there's been SOME breakdown in discipline over the years, this seems like it's a bit...over the top.

Opinions?

Sentry

Uh, parents DO need to realize their kids aren't only not special, but are likely idiots. I'm kind of tired of living in a society where everyone thinks they are the top 10% of everything. It fucks up EVERYTHING.

Preacher

I agree with Cafferty. You see it everywhere, kids are just running wild on a lot of parents. I don't exactly know what the issue is, but a lot of modern parents seem to have just had children because it was the in thing to do. They don't want to be a parent they want to be their kids "friend" and then they let the little bastards run loose and say "They just don't respect me!"

Also cafferty recognizes that boomer parents aren't parenting either and that's left their kids with no one to look after. It's his last paragraph, its not like he's abdicating it all on "its the younger fuckers". He's saying there is a fundamental problem.

ElJeffe

Unless you're actually a parent or have experience being around small children, you likely have no clue how good parents are by watching them interact with their kids for 30 seconds in a crowded restaurant.

If a little kid - say, a 4-year-old - acts up, the first course of action should be to politely ask them to stop. If that doesn't work, you should escalate things until the kids respond. But if your initial response to little Bobby sticking a carrot in his ear is to yell at him, you suck as a parent.

Thing is, most non-parents don't get this. They also don't get that all small children act like this at times. The most well-behaved toddler on the planet is still a toddler, and will act poorly at times. Not just "at times" but often. Because he's a little kid. But if a not-parent looks over and sees a kid acting up and the parent not spanking the shit out of him immediately, they shake their heads and chuff and say "Wow, parents today are awful, I'm sure gonna be different when I'm a parent and I'll have perfect little angels that never act up." Sometimes we also get the "and I'll never take my kids out to a restaurant like this, what's wrong with some people, fucking things up for everyone else, the nerve."

Yeah, bullshit. When you are a parent, you will take your kids out to restaurants, because you have the right to do so. And sometimes your kids will act up, because that is what kids do. And sometimes you will do the right thing, and sometimes you will do the wrong thing, because you are human. And I guarantee that no matter what you do, in every place you go, there will be some fucktard somewhere rolling his eyes and shaking his head about what a shitty parent you are.

Which isn't to say there aren't bad parents out there. It's just that it's virtually impossible to tell whether they're bad parents or just having a bad day or are actually doing everything right and you just have no idea what good parenting looks like.

redx

I don't know the status of parenting in America. But I know a little about the status of education in America. Parents' growing inability to impose manners and limits on their kids when the kids are in school is reflected in record dropout rates, as well as teen drug and alcohol abuse, teen sex, and unwed pregnancies. Maybe it's parenting that's on the decline, more than the schools.

I'm not really sure about drop-out rates, but aren't most of those other things, despite media fear mongering, actually improving?

I hate it when people bring their kids to a restaurant I'm about to spend $100 at. It's in appropriate. Part of what I am paying for is atmosphere, and if that has been ruined, I don't really care too much about my house salad. It's always been annoying. It was annoying when I was 8 and behaved myself and had to see other kids pulling that crap. I must not be old enough to remember it being any different. I think George Carlin did a bit about it when he was in his 20s, which was a while before I was born. I don't really know if you can point to the restaurant thing, and pretend it means anything.

He does blame the baby boomers though, and I don't think that can ever be done enough. I wouldn't call the article totally off base, but the whole perception that it is getting worse all of a sudden may not really have al that much to do with reality.

Robos A Go Go

Preacher wrote: »

I agree with Cafferty. You see it everywhere, kids are just running wild on a lot of parents. I don't exactly know what the issue is, but a lot of modern parents seem to have just had children because it was the in thing to do. They don't want to be a parent they want to be their kids "friend" and then they let the little bastards run loose and say "They just don't respect me!"

Also cafferty recognizes that boomer parents aren't parenting either and that's left their kids with no one to look after. It's his last paragraph, its not like he's abdicating it all on "its the younger fuckers". He's saying there is a fundamental problem.

Aren't youth crime rates for this decade very far down from prior decades, though? If so, that would indicate that parents are generally doing a better job now, not a worse job, even if kids seem a bit more annoying now than when you were younger.

ElJeffe

I will agree that we should heap some blame on the Boomers. I don't know what for, but fuck those guys.

Scooter

It all sounds really anecdotal, and yea, last I heard stuff like crime and violence were improving significantly. If teens are having sex it's not the worst thing in the world.

ElJeffe

Robos A Go Go wrote: »

Preacher wrote: »

I agree with Cafferty. You see it everywhere, kids are just running wild on a lot of parents. I don't exactly know what the issue is, but a lot of modern parents seem to have just had children because it was the in thing to do. They don't want to be a parent they want to be their kids "friend" and then they let the little bastards run loose and say "They just don't respect me!"

Also cafferty recognizes that boomer parents aren't parenting either and that's left their kids with no one to look after. It's his last paragraph, its not like he's abdicating it all on "its the younger fuckers". He's saying there is a fundamental problem.

Aren't youth crime rates for this decade down from prior decades, though? If so, that would indicate that parents are generally doing a better job now, not a worse job.

No, see, the other day I was sitting in a restaurant and a little kid across the room spoke at a volume I could actually hear so fuck parents argrglagrgahgl.

Preacher

Robos A Go Go wrote: »

Preacher wrote: »

I agree with Cafferty. You see it everywhere, kids are just running wild on a lot of parents. I don't exactly know what the issue is, but a lot of modern parents seem to have just had children because it was the in thing to do. They don't want to be a parent they want to be their kids "friend" and then they let the little bastards run loose and say "They just don't respect me!"

Also cafferty recognizes that boomer parents aren't parenting either and that's left their kids with no one to look after. It's his last paragraph, its not like he's abdicating it all on "its the younger fuckers". He's saying there is a fundamental problem.

Aren't youth crime rates for this decade down from prior decades, though? If so, that would indicate that parents are generally doing a better job now, not a worse job, even if kids seem a bit more annoying now than when you were younger.

I have no idea, crime rates are weird because a lot of the time like any stat they can be used to tell utter lies. I can just go off personal experience and with the single mother crowd I work with who let their kids stomp all over shit. And I'm not talking about little kids as much as people with teenagers who are letting the little bastards do whatever.

Preacher

Like a woman I work with who's daughter has 4 bastard kids from 4 seperate fathers and the bitch can't support 1 of them. Worst part is she's under 25, more damn kids on the way I'm sure.

Duffel

ElJeffe wrote: »

Unless you're actually a parent or have experience being around small children, you likely have no clue how good parents are by watching them interact with their kids for 30 seconds in a crowded restaurant.

If a little kid - say, a 4-year-old - acts up, the first course of action should be to politely ask them to stop. If that doesn't work, you should escalate things until the kids respond. But if your initial response to little Bobby sticking a carrot in his ear is to yell at him, you suck as a parent.

Thing is, most non-parents don't get this. They also don't get that all small children act like this at times. The most well-behaved toddler on the planet is still a toddler, and will act poorly at times. Not just "at times" but often. Because he's a little kid. But if a not-parent looks over and sees a kid acting up and the parent not spanking the shit out of him immediately, they shake their heads and chuff and say "Wow, parents today are awful, I'm sure gonna be different when I'm a parent and I'll have perfect little angels that never act up." Sometimes we also get the "and I'll never take my kids out to a restaurant like this, what's wrong with some people, fucking things up for everyone else, the nerve."

Yeah, bullshit. When you are a parent, you will take your kids out to restaurants, because you have the right to do so. And sometimes your kids will act up, because that is what kids do. And sometimes you will do the right thing, and sometimes you will do the wrong thing, because you are human. And I guarantee that no matter what you do, in every place you go, there will be some fucktard somewhere rolling his eyes and shaking his head about what a shitty parent you are.

Which isn't to say there aren't bad parents out there. It's just that it's virtually impossible to tell whether they're bad parents or just having a bad day or are actually doing everything right and you just have no idea what good parenting looks like.

I think one solution is just a more clear dilineation of spaces. IE, there are some restuarants where you just don't take your kid, and it's just socially understood that they're places for adults (and not in a bow-chicka-wow-wow kind of way), at least during certain hours of the day. Obviously these would be classier kinds of places where you might go on a nice date, not Outback or somewhere like that.

Of course, this would only apply to younger kids. If you're parents of a well-behaved 11-year-old kid you should be able to take them anywhere reasonable. And if parents have a kid that's still disruptive to others around them by the time they're that age or older - which you do see, occasionally - then there is a pretty good possibility that somebody sucks, be it the parents or the uncontrollable kid.

Olivaw

I like Jack Cafferty

He needs his own show

Jack Cafferty's Disgruntled Hour

He'd interview guests and then get disgruntled when they dance around his questions

Robos A Go Go

Yeah, if families today piss you off, then stay the hell away from family restaurants.

Preacher

I loved cafferty during the election, I think he was rating a palin answer and at the end he says "Did you get that?" It was perfect.

moniker

Jack Cafferty is a curmudgeon.

ElJeffe

Duffel wrote: »

I think one solution is just a more clear dilineation of spaces. IE, there are some restuarants where you just don't take your kid, and it's just socially understood that they're places for adults (and not in a bow-chicka-wow-wow kind of way), at least during certain hours of the day. Obviously these would be classier kinds of places where you might go on a nice date, not Outback or somewhere like that.

This already pretty much exists, though. I don't often go to nice restaurants and see toddlers, unless by "nice" you mean "Olive Garden". I have on occasion, but it's pretty damned rare. And in non-nice restaurants, well, expect to see little kids there. Sometimes they might be loud or obnoxious, but I don't wind up in situations often where a kid is so poorly-behaved that he's actually disrupting me or impairing my ability to enjoy my meal. There's a difference between a kid screaming or throwing food across the restaurant and a kid who is acting in such a way that someone staring at him will think "tisk tisk, shitty parents." And if you (general you) are the latter such person: grow a pair.

ElJeffe

I do think Cafferty is a great professional grump, though.

Preacher

Robos A Go Go wrote: »

Yeah, if families today piss you off, then stay the hell away from family restaurants.

What defines a family restaurant? What defines an adult restaurant? Are there places I can go that are not strip clubs or bars that I can be guarenteed I don't have to deal with other peoples children?

moniker

Preacher wrote: »

Robos A Go Go wrote: »

Yeah, if families today piss you off, then stay the hell away from family restaurants.

What defines a family restaurant? What defines an adult restaurant? Are there places I can go that are not strip clubs or bars that I can be guarenteed I don't have to deal with other peoples children?

Yes.

They may require that you wear a coat to be admitted.

Lord Yod

Jeffe there is an amount of child-acting-like-a-child that is appropriate to public places, particularly places like nice restaurants, and then there is behavior that blatantly crosses that line. When the parents do nothing at all to curtail their children crossing the line, then I will happily roll my eyes and go 'man fuck parents these days'.

Robos A Go Go

Preacher wrote: »

Robos A Go Go wrote: »

Yeah, if families today piss you off, then stay the hell away from family restaurants.

What defines a family restaurant? What defines an adult restaurant? Are there places I can go that are not strip clubs or bars that I can be guarenteed I don't have to deal with other peoples children?

Anywhere with a children's menu.

chasm

Olivaw wrote: »

I like Jack Cafferty

He needs his own show

Jack Cafferty's Disgruntled Hour

He'd interview guests and then get disgruntled when they dance around his questions

"Y'know what grinds my gears?"

Sentry

ElJeffe wrote: »

I do think Cafferty is a great professional grump, though.

I believe the proper term is curmudgeon. At least, from a technical standpoint.

He's a living Andy Rooney...

Invisible

I saw that earlier today. It sounded like pure anecdotal evidence to me. Maybe his book has nice charts and graphs about how parenting is going straight to hell. I don't know, I find bad parents to be infuriating as well, but I could picture Jack Cafferty writing from his porch, just waiting for an errant ball or child to enter his yard so he could bemoan the state of parenting.

Scalfin

ElJeffe wrote: »

Robos A Go Go wrote: »

Preacher wrote: »

I agree with Cafferty. You see it everywhere, kids are just running wild on a lot of parents. I don't exactly know what the issue is, but a lot of modern parents seem to have just had children because it was the in thing to do. They don't want to be a parent they want to be their kids "friend" and then they let the little bastards run loose and say "They just don't respect me!"

Also cafferty recognizes that boomer parents aren't parenting either and that's left their kids with no one to look after. It's his last paragraph, its not like he's abdicating it all on "its the younger fuckers". He's saying there is a fundamental problem.

Aren't youth crime rates for this decade down from prior decades, though? If so, that would indicate that parents are generally doing a better job now, not a worse job.

No, see, the other day I was sitting in a restaurant and a little kid across the room spoke at a volume I could actually hear so fuck parents argrglagrgahgl.

I have a slightly different problem, as my autistic brother has, on at least one occasion that I can clearly remember, refused to eat at a specific restaurant, causing my dad to throw what can only be described as a tantrum. Granted, this was on vacation, and my dad tends to turn into a monster around anything involving logistics (to the point my mom has to me to put up for it for everyone's sake), and my brother was being obstinate, but all he really had to do was say "fine, don't eat" rather than making a scene.

Hacksaw

ElJeffe wrote: »

Lots of words

Or maybe they're shaking their heads at the children for being awful. I know that's what I'm doing. As someone who lives with a small child (my sister and her son live with me), I know there's only so much a parent can do to keep their kids from being horrible little shits, at times. So when I shake my head, I'm shaking it because the child is being a cunt, not the parent (usually, anyways).

Also, for the record: I fucking hate kids (for the most part). They're almost always an investment that yields little if any returns, and they're more often a burden than a blessing.

moniker

Scalfin wrote: »

I have a slightly different problem, as my autistic brother has, on at least one occasion that I can clearly remember, refused to eat at a specific restaurant, causing my dad to throw what can only be described as a tantrum. Granted, this was on vacation, and my dad tends to turn into a monster around anything involving logistics (to the point my mom has to me to put up for it for everyone's sake), and my brother was being obstinate, but all he really had to do was say "fine, don't eat" rather than making a scene.

See? Parents today.

:P

Barcardi

this is up there with the guy in the airplane that gets mad when the kid crys, then bitches to you about it

when guess who was bawling his eyes out 30 years ago on an airplane? that very same guy

TheMarshal

Lord Yod wrote: »

Jeffe there is an amount of child-acting-like-a-child that is appropriate to public places, particularly places like nice restaurants, and then there is behavior that blatantly crosses that line. When the parents do nothing at all to curtail their children crossing the line, then I will happily roll my eyes and go 'man fuck parents these days'.

I'd say it's okay to pre-emptively get upset with parents for even bringing a child (who will inevitably ACT like a child) to a place where such activity would be disruptive.

This includes, but is not limited to:
- Movie Theaters showing Rated R movies (particularly those with start times after 9 pm)
- Restaurants where the average price per plate is above $15

Robos A Go Go

Yeah, you definitely shouldn't take your kids to a movie they don't want to see or a restaurant they won't like. Having to sit still in an environment that's completely inhospitable to them is bound to make them restless, unless of course they're afraid you'll hurt them, in which case Jack Cafferty salutes you.

Unknown

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Robos A Go Go

mcdermott wrote: »

ElJeffe wrote: »

If a little kid - say, a 4-year-old - acts up, the first course of action should be to politely ask them to stop. If that doesn't work, you should escalate things until the kids respond. But if your initial response to little Bobby sticking a carrot in his ear is to yell at him, you suck as a parent.

This is probably the only spot I don't agree with...the "polite asking" should (IMO) actually be in the form of polite conversation before you enter the restaurant (or theater, or whatever). You should be past the "polite" state before you ever start subjecting others to your children at anyplace that does not have animatronic animals that sing.

And if your kids cannot behave without you having to intervene they have no business in PG-13 and up movies or restaurants where the average plate runs more than $30.*

Aside from that, I give a fuck. At 90% of restaurants and 90% of other public spaces I don't care if your kid makes a bit of a scene...these things happen. As long as it's not excessive, who cares?


I'll also say that, as the husband of a teacher, a lot of parents don't seem to have any idea what average means. Like, 90% of parents seem to think their kid is going to be a damn astronaut when they grow up. Hate to break it to them, but.....


EDIT: * - Maybe $25. But $15? That's pretty much everywhere, TM.

Places like TGI Fridays serve meals at $10. With appetizers that's $15, though.

But yeah, I think the presence of a Kids' Menu is the best indicator.

Duffel

It should be a given that any chain restuarant is probably family-oriented, since that's where most of their money is going to be coming from.

Dalboz

mcdermott wrote: »

ElJeffe wrote: »

If a little kid - say, a 4-year-old - acts up, the first course of action should be to politely ask them to stop. If that doesn't work, you should escalate things until the kids respond. But if your initial response to little Bobby sticking a carrot in his ear is to yell at him, you suck as a parent.

This is probably the only spot I don't agree with...the "polite asking" should (IMO) actually be in the form of polite conversation before you enter the restaurant (or theater, or whatever). You should be past the "polite" state before you ever start subjecting others to your children at anyplace that does not have animatronic animals that sing.

And if your kids cannot behave without you having to intervene they have no business in PG-13 and up movies or restaurants where the average plate runs more than $30.*

Aside from that, I give a fuck. At 90% of restaurants and 90% of other public spaces I don't care if your kid makes a bit of a scene...these things happen. As long as it's not excessive, who cares?

I agree that it should probably be expected that from time to time a kid may wind up making a scene. I think the real problem is more the lazy parents, the ones who let their kids make a scene, over and over, and on and on, without intervening and stopping their kids. Instead, you have a kid who makes scene, screaming, acting like a brat, and the parents of that kid just them do it, rather than disciplining their kid, either in the restaurant or whatever establishment or taking the kid outside to do it. You have some parents who just let the kids do it and pretty much tune it out, and then expect everyone else to tune it out and put up with it. That's where I draw the line. If you're going do that, fine, but when it starts to disrupt other people, then it's a problem.

Duffel

Also, I'd kind of like it if we were more on a European/Mediterranean sort of day schedule. Want to go out as a group of adults? Go out to the restuarant after 10 pm, when the kiddies are in bed. Of course, we'd have to change our work schedules to fit this, so it ain't gonna happen. But I would prefer it, personally.

noweat

look if the restaurant has a childrens' menu then you shouldn't be surprised to find children showing up there.

Nocturne

If I wasn't at work I would post the Bill Hicks "Your children aren't special" bit.

I can't watch youtube but google tells me this is it. I can't vouch for the quality of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqtcb66Yeyo

Anyway, I agree with Cafferty.

Ohtsam

I know at least my mother would agree with him.
Its rather ridiculous how lazy the students in her science class are. (7th grade basic biology)
In her honors class she gave an open book test and still had 5 students get below a 50. And one of her colleagues gave an open book test WITH PAGE NUMBERS BY EACH QUESTION and had a 30% fail rate because most the kids just randomly put down answers and slept the rest of the class period.
And on top of that when students don't turn in their work guess who the parents blame even when given proof that their child is lying about whether or not they did it. But these are rather examples but damn she hates dealing with the parents even more than the kids.

Willy-Bob Gracchus

I am just thinking back to a particular high school Latin class where, as usual, we were given a paragraph of a later Republic/Principate author to translate. Unlike the vast majority of translation pieces, this one wasn't about good Julius C. merrily slaughtering 50k or so Brigantes. Instead it was a guy, perhaps Pliny, can't remember essentially saying, "By Vulcan, I tell ya, the kids these days, with their fancy Eastern cults and their Greek body slaves... Back in the Republic, youngsters respected their elders, knew how to shave, I tells ya!"

TL;DR - old farts have been whinging about kids for as long as there have been old farts and kids.

And maybe this is a bit of a low one, but there's always the chance that old Jack here wouldn't have had any alcoholism to recover from if his pop hadn't been the angry wrathful type...