Philosophy

holycrapawalrus

Alright, here's the deal. I'm about done with my AA degree and getting ready to transfer into an undergraduate program at a university. The problem is that the business program I'm in right now bores me and the only reason I chose it was because I was told it'd be fairly easy to find a job with a business degree right out of school. My long term plan is to get a BA and then go onto graduate school, but I'm dreading spending the next 2 years of my life studying something I don't even like.

One field that I've always had an interest in is philosophy. What I'm wondering is how much good would a degree in philosophy do for me as far as employment goes? I've been told that philosophy is a good BA to get if you plan on continuing onto graduate studies in law or pretty much anything else. Can anyone shed some light on this and possibly suggest some interesting fields to go into? Thanks in advance.

Summary: BA in philosophy, yes/no? Suggest some interesting fields of work.

Theungry

I'm sorry to have to say this, but for an undergrad degree, you couldn't pick anything much less employable than philosophy. If you want to go straight to a masters program, then its excellent. Philosophy, like history is mostly an academic's degree. Great for someone with a teaching job who wants to write a book every couple of years. To teach at university full time, you need a terminal degree (PHD in this case).

Vincent Grayson

holycrapawalrus wrote:

Alright, here's the deal. I'm about done with my AA degree and getting ready to transfer into an undergraduate program at a university. The problem is that the business program I'm in right now bores me and the only reason I chose it was because I was told it'd be fairly easy to find a job with a business degree right out of school. My long term plan is to get a BA and then go onto graduate school, but I'm dreading spending the next 2 years of my life studying something I don't even like.

One field that I've always had an interest in is philosophy. What I'm wondering is how much good would a degree in philosophy do for me as far as employment goes? I've been told that philosophy is a good BA to get if you plan on continuing onto graduate studies in law or pretty much anything else. Can anyone shed some light on this and possibly suggest some interesting fields to go into? Thanks in advance.

Summary: BA in philosophy, yes/no? Suggest some interesting fields of work.

There's a reason people joke about philosophy degrees so much.

Short of going to law school, it's completely useless, except for those slightly above entry-level office jobs that just require *some* college degree, regardless of what it is.

If you plan to go further in school, and teach at a university, it could work out for you, but a BA in Philosophy by itself is almost as useless as having not gone to school at all.

holycrapawalrus

I'm more concerned with getting a good background in organizing thought processes and problem solving to go into a Master's program than being immediately employable. I'll have an AA in accounting this summer, so that should get me through for awhile. What I'm really concerned about is choosing a Master's or Doctorate program that won't bore the hell out of me. I've considered law and was told that philosophy gives a strong background for studying law. I'm really just looking for graudate programs in which a philosophy degree would be a benefit.

Maybe I could use a clarification on what a philosophy curriculum really teaches.

Septus

Classics degrees in general are often thought of as very good undergrad degrees for the law or business world later in life, but of course like the other posters said, that requires further education. But if you don't have any idea as to what type of graduate degree you want to get at the moment, then it might not be optimal.

But really, I wouldn't worry about it if you're pretty sure you're going to have further education.

I got an undergrad in philosophy, and I'm taking a break from school, but I think I was fairly lucky to have gotten some positions in the political world, where I'd say it'd be one of the better undergrad degrees.

Vincent Grayson wrote:

If you plan to go further in school, and teach at a university, it could work out for you, but a BA in Philosophy by itself is almost as useless as having not gone to school at all.

You already mentioned that having a college degree of any type is useful. It's still far better than just a high school diploma.

DamienThorn

holycrapawalrus wrote:

There's a reason people joke about philosophy degrees so much.

That's right, there's a damn good reason why people joke about philosophy degrees so much.

They haven't a clue what the hell they're talking about.

Philosophy degrees are arguably the *best* long-term degree that you can get for a future career. The skills that are rigorously required to succeed in it, even at a BA level, are essential for all future jobs.

In philosophy you will learn to be incredibly nit-picky about grammar and the definition of words, learn impressive logical and rhetorical skills, develop an understanding of the logical construction of sentences and logical operators within said sentences, be taught how to present challenging and abstract topics in an articulate and clear fashion, learn how to do extensive research in areas that bridge philosophy, et cetera. While these skills can and are developed with other degrees, they're not developed to the same extent.

More and more studies are being done on the short-term and long-term effects of getting particular degrees. Business and science degree are best if you're looking at graduates' short-term employment records (i.e 2-4 years). Long-term (5-10 years) engineering and the liberal arts students (with philosophy majors tying for the lead in most cases with engineers) are raking in significantly more cash. Moreover, to draw on the earlier poster's rhetorical point: There's a reason why the majority of successful CEOs have liberal arts degrees.

EggyToast

What Damien is talking about, I believe, is that philosophy degrees are useful, but not in the sense of "doing philosophy" as a job. They're applicable, but in doing other things in the future.

There's little support upon leaving such a program to get you a job, but the skills you learn can, if applied well, get you far. It depends on whether it jives with how your mind works.

The Green Eyed Monster

DamienThorn wrote:

More and more studies are being done on the short-term and long-term effects of getting particular degrees. Business and science degree are best if you're looking at graduates' short-term employment records (i.e 2-4 years). Long-term (5-10 years) engineering and the liberal arts students (with philosophy majors tying for the lead in most cases with engineers) are raking in significantly more cash. Moreover, to draw on the earlier poster's rhetorical point: There's a reason why the majority of successful CEOs have liberal arts degrees.

I just want to say that "liberal arts" does not equal "philosophy." Also, that study sounds questionable to say the least, and I'm not buying a word until you produce the source.

I will second the rest of the prevailing wisdom in this thread -- philosophy degrees are good for grad school. That's it.

DamienThorn

celery77 wrote:

DamienThorn wrote:

More and more studies are being done on the short-term and long-term effects of getting particular degrees. Business and science degree are best if you're looking at graduates' short-term employment records (i.e 2-4 years). Long-term (5-10 years) engineering and the liberal arts students (with philosophy majors tying for the lead in most cases with engineers) are raking in significantly more cash. Moreover, to draw on the earlier poster's rhetorical point: There's a reason why the majority of successful CEOs have liberal arts degrees.

I just want to say that "liberal arts" does not equal "philosophy." Also, that study sounds questionable to say the least, and I'm not buying a word until you produce the source.

I will second the rest of the prevailing wisdom in this thread -- philosophy degrees are good for grad school. That's it.

Liberal arts does not exclusive mean philosophy - it include other areas such as literature, history, classics, and fine art.

It's sources, not a lone source. Macleans, Newsweek, the Business Report, the Economist, and a couple others have all published articles in the past 5 years that support what I said. Moreover, a series of academic studies out of economics departments in the US and Britain also support my case.

Thanatos

DamienThorn wrote:

celery77 wrote:

DamienThorn wrote:

More and more studies are being done on the short-term and long-term effects of getting particular degrees. Business and science degree are best if you're looking at graduates' short-term employment records (i.e 2-4 years). Long-term (5-10 years) engineering and the liberal arts students (with philosophy majors tying for the lead in most cases with engineers) are raking in significantly more cash. Moreover, to draw on the earlier poster's rhetorical point: There's a reason why the majority of successful CEOs have liberal arts degrees.

I just want to say that "liberal arts" does not equal "philosophy." Also, that study sounds questionable to say the least, and I'm not buying a word until you produce the source.

I will second the rest of the prevailing wisdom in this thread -- philosophy degrees are good for grad school. That's it.

Liberal arts does not exclusive mean philosophy - it include other areas such as literature, history, classics, and fine art.

It's sources, not a lone source. Macleans, Newsweek, the Business Report, the Economist, and a couple others have all published articles in the past 5 years that support what I said. Moreover, a series of academic studies out of economics departments in the US and Britain also support my case.

Then you should have no trouble at all linking said sources.

The Green Eyed Monster

DamienThorn wrote:

It's sources, not a lone source. Macleans, Newsweek, the Business Report, the Economist, and a couple others have all published articles in the past 5 years that support what I said. Moreover, a series of academic studies out of economics departments in the US and Britain also support my case.

Sorry to make this a debate -- but a link to any of them? And a real critical point, which was my first point, do these studies track "liberal arts" degrees or "philosophy" degrees? And do they account for further degrees beyond the undergraduate one? Basically I have to see the source before I'm going to buy your claim here.

Septus

Heh, I remember my parents telling me about that economist article as well, but I'd not be able to produce it.

celery77 wrote:

I will second the rest of the prevailing wisdom in this thread -- philosophy degrees are good for grad school. That's it.

No. Like law school, it will help to teach you how to think analytically and improve your writing like Damien says.

I'd say being awarded the degree itself is much less beneficial.

Doc

Septus wrote:

No. Like law school, it will help to teach you how to think analytically and improve your writing like Damien says.

About as much as any other degree.

naporeon

As someone who received a degree in an arguably even MORE useless field (i.e. Anthropology), I can tell you that 90% of what you hear about whether or not a degree is "employable" is complete bunk. I base this on personal experience, though, so I will allow that it might be anecdotal.

For the vast majority of positions, the first thing they'll look at is simply that you have a degree in the first place. After that, work experience and skillsets are their first concern. My proof?

My job.

I work as a web developer, wiki architect, and technical writer, very well-paid, in a highly competitive field, in a tech-saturated area (Seattle, WA). Obviously, there is no overlap whatever between my area of study and my current occupation. How did I get this career? Simple. I have the necessary skills. I have had a couple jobs involving one or the other. Could I have gotten this job without a degree? No. And few degrees are good enough to get you your FIRST job in a new field all on their own. Clearly, it's a degree that matters, not which degree.

Your work history and skillset are what get you into jobs, not necessarily what degree you hold. End of story.

The Green Eyed Monster

Septus wrote:

celery77 wrote:

I will second the rest of the prevailing wisdom in this thread -- philosophy degrees are good for grad school. That's it.

No. Like law school, it will help to teach you how to think analytically and improve your writing like Damien says.

Actually the biggest complaint I hear from my philosophy major friend who's taking the degree to prep for grad school is that they do an abysmal job of teaching them to write, and based on the writing from philosophy majors I've read I'm suspecting she has a point.

The other point is that many, many, many degrees will teach you to think analytically. Philosophy hardly holds a monopoly in this department.

It has its benefits, and it has its drawbacks. Unless you're going to grad school, I'd say the drawbacks outweigh the benefits.

vonPoonBurGer

holycrapawalrus wrote:

I'm dreading spending the next 2 years of my life studying something I don't even like.

I would urge you to consider going with the program that interests you. If Philosophy interests you, then go for Philosophy. This is especially true if you're thinking of doing graduate work, because it's much easier to excel at something you're actually into. I tried to force myself to stick with a CompSci program I hated, and it went very poorly. I ended up with a BA in Psych, and now I'm an Oracle DBA. Go figure.

God

http://thunder1.cudenver.edu/clas/philosophy/why.html wrote:

-- A comprehensive study* of college students' scores on major tests used for admission to graduate and professional schools (LSAT, GRE, GMAT) shows that students majoring in Philosophy received scores substantially higher than the average on each of the tests studied.

--Philosophy Majors received higher scores on the LSAT than students in all other humanities areas, higher scores than all social and natural science majors except economics and mathematics, and higher scores than all applied majors. Philosophy Majors scored 10% better than political science majors on the LSAT.

-- Philosophy Majors outperformed business majors by a margin of 15% on the GMAT and outperformed every other undergraduate major except mathematics.

-- Philosophy Majors' scores on the verbal portion of the GRE were higher than in any other major, even English.

-- Philosophy Majors scored substantially higher on the GRE than all other humanities majors and were alone among humanities majors in scoring above the overall average.

* The study compared the scores of 550,000 college students who took the LSAT, GMAT, and the verbal and quantitative portions of the GRE with data collected over the previous eighteen years and was conducted by the National Institute of Education and reported in The Chronicle of Higher Education.

There's other good stuff at that site, too.

EDIT- Now if only my philosophy education learned me how to use tags better.

The Green Eyed Monster

God wrote:

[quote=why?]-- A comprehensive study* of college students' scores on major tests used for admission to graduate and professional schools (LSAT, GRE, GMAT) shows that students majoring in Philosophy received scores substantially higher than the average on each of the tests studied.

--Philosophy Majors received higher scores on the LSAT than students in all other humanities areas, higher scores than all social and natural science majors except economics and mathematics, and higher scores than all applied majors. Philosophy Majors scored 10% better than political science majors on the LSAT.

-- Philosophy Majors outperformed business majors by a margin of 15% on the GMAT and outperformed every other undergraduate major except mathematics.

-- Philosophy Majors' scores on the verbal portion of the GRE were higher than in any other major, even English.

-- Philosophy Majors scored substantially higher on the GRE than all other humanities majors and were alone among humanities majors in scoring above the overall average.

* The study compared the scores of 550,000 college students who took the LSAT, GMAT, and the verbal and quantitative portions of the GRE with data collected over the previous eighteen years and was conducted by the National Institute of Education and reported in The Chronicle of Higher Education.

There's other good stuff at that site, too.[/quote]
That has entirely to do with tests which are only really relevant to graduate school admission......

edit: and yes, I fixed your tags for you.

God

Yes. And better GRE/LSAT scores lead to acceptance into better graduate or law schools, which in turn leads to making money. So while just having a BA in philosophy won't let you live like a king, it can help do so later.

Thanatos

God wrote:

Yes. And better GRE/LSAT scores lead to acceptance into better graduate or law schools, which in turn leads to making money. So while just having a BA in philosophy won't let you live like a king, it can help do so later.

Well, what everyone has been saying is that philosophy is good for getting into grad school. No one has disagreed with that. Why are the philosophy majors the ones having problems with comprehending this?

God

Thanatos wrote:

God wrote:

Yes. And better GRE/LSAT scores lead to acceptance into better graduate or law schools, which in turn leads to making money. So while just having a BA in philosophy won't let you live like a king, it can help do so later.

Well, what everyone has been saying is that philosophy is good for getting into grad school. No one has disagreed with that. Why are the philosophy majors the ones having problems with comprehending this?

Why don't you point out where I disputed that point.

With just a 4-year degree in Philosophy, you will not be making the big bucks. Or if you are, you could probably be making the same money with a degree in Political Science, English, History, or whatever.

Thanatos

God wrote:

Thanatos wrote:

God wrote:

Yes. And better GRE/LSAT scores lead to acceptance into better graduate or law schools, which in turn leads to making money. So while just having a BA in philosophy won't let you live like a king, it can help do so later.

Well, what everyone has been saying is that philosophy is good for getting into grad school. No one has disagreed with that. Why are the philosophy majors the ones having problems with comprehending this?

Why don't you point out where I disputed that point.

With just a 4-year degree in Philosophy, you will not be making the big bucks. Or if you are, you could probably be making the same money with a degree in Political Science, English, History, or whatever.

I assumed that you were linking to the evidence that everyone has been requesting. Apparently, my assumption was incorrect.

krapst78

I graduated with a BA in Philosophy and I'm currently working as a Game Producer. Your degree and your career aren't mutually exclusive and what matters more is your determination and drive.

Get a degree in a field you enjoy. Simultaneously, think about what you want to accomplish after you graduate and work your ass off to get there. I have a lot of friends working in the tech industry with liberal arts degrees just because they put in the extra efforts to get those jobs.

If you plan on going to grad school then a Philosophy degree might give you a little boost. The important thing is getting a degree, any degree, because that will open a lot of opportunities that wouldn't otherwise be there.

homeobocks

Paul Graham wrote an essay about staying above the wind or something, and he recommends Math if you don't know exactly what you want. :^:

Septus

krapst78 wrote:

If you plan on going to grad school then a Philosophy degree might give you a little boost. The important thing is getting a degree, any degree, because that will open a lot of opportunities that wouldn't otherwise be there.

Degrees definitely are very important, but when I graduated I was kind of miffed at all the people who told me "Oh, don't worry about your major. Just get a degree, any degree my young chap, and you'll be set!"

:x

Algrun

Speaking as a person with a BA in Philosophy, I'd warn that Philosophy doesn't always provide a well-rounded education-- if you don't work hard. Senior year, I was doing problem sets for my analytic class (try doing logic problems in Frege's begriffschrift and see if Philosophy isn't a challenging subject), reading and translating ancient greek, and writing a long, well researched thesis on 19th century existentialists and their writings on humor.

Yeah, none of those things will directly help me land a job, but goddamnit if I can't look at a problem I've never seen before and not help but feel confident that I'll find a way to solve it. I know how to write, I know how to think both creatively and analytically, and I know how to speak my mind, in public and in private. I have yet to see the shortcomings of a degree in philosophy as long as you work hard and explore everything the major has to offer.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a whole slab of burgers that need to be flipped.

Mahnmut

holycrapawalrus wrote:

Alright, here's the deal. I'm about done with my AA degree and getting ready to transfer into an undergraduate program at a university. The problem is that the business program I'm in right now bores me and the only reason I chose it was because I was told it'd be fairly easy to find a job with a business degree right out of school.

So.

What degrees are useful in themselves for people who don't really like math and whatnot?

Is everything remotely touchy-feely unemployable, except insofar as it might prove you went to college?