best CAD util?

Chaotic Descent

I've learnt some 3D Studio Max, but I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good CAD application that also does 3D.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAD#Software_providers_today
SolidWorks?
I'm looking to design some... let's just say toy cars for the sake of simplicity. while being able to have a design that's theoretically easier to turn into an actual product because of it being a CAD file will be nice, it's not 100% requirement that it be possible to produce, since I'm an amateur doing a hobby project. (although every hobbiest aspires to ... uh... well... I dunno. not everyone wants their hobby to be a job.
Perhaps being able to convert to 3DSM would be nice so that I could properly animate it with a "skeleton" and moving parts. It WILL have lots of moving parts.

Also, while I'm on the topic, does anyone know how the hell to model something existing, like a model or toy car? I tried it before but I just can't keep track of what I need to measure, what's been measured, what hasn't been measured... @_@; I need some kind of detailed method.

I'd Fuck Chuck Lidell Up

autocad

also I had this project with this guy once, we were using 2 sided tape, I would hold it up to something to measure and he would read the numbers. when I went to put it in it turns out he gave like 1/3 in metric and 2/3 in standard.

man it was fun trying to figure that out : /. but I really like autocad and it does have 3D

I'd Fuck Chuck Lidell Up

uuh also I'm not sure which autocad has the full 3d but a lot of the newer ones have 3D rendering of like houses and stuff. pretty awesome.

also there are a lot of different options for how you want to measure your design and a lot of shortcuts that will save you a lot of time.

I really like the one that autolays bricks and other textures.

really good for the frontside view of a building.

also they have quick pics for sinks and other things you would be expected to place in homes.

but it is expensive.

oniian

Hands down UGS or Solid Edge, both blow Auto-CAD out of the water as far as 3-d modeling goes and then when you have modeled your object in 3-D, it couldn't be more easier to covert it to a 2-D blue print. Plus Solid Edge has a very go tutorial include in it. Auto-CAD is worthless save that it has a larger market share, from that perspective it is the microsoft of the CAD world.

BlazeFire

I used AutoCAD in highschool for 3 years. Then I used Solidworks for a year or so in University. I find that AutoCAD is awesome for just straight up 2d plans and such, whereas SolidWorks is much better for 3d models. It has simulation suites and such available too.

I found AutoCAD super awkward to use for 3d.

I'd Fuck Chuck Lidell Up

like I said, the one specifically for 3D isn't bad, but the rest are kinds wierd. Unless you take off autosnap or whatever it pulls the line you want to make to random walls.

Diomedes240z

AutoCAD is THE standard for all things 2D. It's crap, but everyone uses it so so you should learn it. AutoCAD handles 3D, but it is being superceded by Inventor, by the same company. They're allocating all their development into Inventor. It's the same story; not very good, but everyone will be using it.

The best CAD package is probably unigraphics (sp?) or something. I don't know how many people use it, but I bet it's not many.

SUPER_JESUS

I would recommend VectorWorks for both 2d and 3d drafting... It is much easier to use then AutoCAD and I think a much better program actually

focused7

I highly recommend SolidWorks. Both easy to use and powerful. I've used it for 8 years now and love it. Really is probably the easiest to learn of all the 3D packages.

moniker

commie wrote:

like I said, the one specifically for 3D isn't bad, but the rest are kinds wierd. Unless you take off autosnap or whatever it pulls the line you want to make to random walls.

Architectural Desktop?

How accurate do you need this to get, or is it more for conceptualizing/tweaking your idea? If that's the case then I'd say save your money and go with sketchup. Nice, quick, easy, free, and close enough.

Lawnboy360

BTW, these programs are very expensive. They're meant for major companies, not amateurs.

Solidworks (mid-end) ~4000$
NX4 (high-end) ~30k$

AutoCAD is around 3500$ and is a major pita compared to parametric programs like Solidworks & NX4.

Google "open source CAD", there seems to be a few interesting things.

3ds Max is for video games and film, not product design.

Fats

I'll second Solidworks -- we used both that and Pro/E in class, and Solidworks was much much easier to pick up. Student versions are just $99, though they only last a year.

Lawnboy360

solidworks.com wrote:

Although functionally identical to the SolidWorks software used by professionals in the workplace, the student edition contains features that make it unsuitable for commercial use.

A bit unclear...

Fats

Lawnboy360 wrote:

solidworks.com wrote:

Although functionally identical to the SolidWorks software used by professionals in the workplace, the student edition contains features that make it unsuitable for commercial use.

A bit unclear...

All it does is add "Student Edition" to anything you render or print out. Not a big deal. It used to save in a slightly different format (so someone with a normal edition couldn't open your file), but as far as I know that's no longer the case.

Edit: And I was wrong, the student license lasts two years, not one.

oniian

Diomedes240z wrote:

AutoCAD is THE standard for all things 2D. It's crap, but everyone uses it so so you should learn it. AutoCAD handles 3D, but it is being superceded by Inventor, by the same company. They're allocating all their development into Inventor. It's the same story; not very good, but everyone will be using it.

The best CAD package is probably unigraphics (sp?) or something. I don't know how many people use it, but I bet it's not many.

Unigraphics, which Diomedes240z mentioned, is UGS. By all means, if you can get your hands on it, learn it. It and Solid Edge (made by the same company) are probably the best out there.

Lucky Cynic

We use AutoCAD 2007 in my school. It's pretty easy to learn and use since I have only been using it for several weeks and am already quite good at it. We even begun using Autodesk CAD or whatever it is and now we can make a 2D drawing and then have it rendered as a 3D model. Lotsa fun.

Chaotic Descent

open source CAD: Well, I'd like to know theoretically what open source VS paid CAD apps can give me. "you get what you pay for" but exactly what the difference is, is not always so clear-cut.

AutoCAD versions: is previous year's version of 2006 perfectly good? Are these pre-release versions any good?

Unigraphics/Solid Edge. If they're both by the same company, how do you pick which is more appropriate? Strange, I don't see mention of Unigraphics on UGS's website...


What I need in a CAD app is...

something that can do 3D curves. I've had trouble finding a good type of object in 3DSM that does them... Like on a smooth car like the 70's Corvette, you can see sort of "seams" that flow along like the grain of wood, but there are curves to model that don't go along that grain.

also something that's both visual (for the artist, being able to easily see it in 3D) as well as technical. 3DSM really chugs when you do anything that's not really simple with very few objects. I'm worried AutoCAD, by being classified as more "2D", won't let me view and pan the camera around in 3D as easily... I also need something that's very well designed to organize different steps in the design process. in Max, the organization is all done manually. YOU set up a plane and load an image file as it's texture.

I remember a recent project I WANTED to do, and where this ability has been desired in previous projects, where I want to take an isometric 2D image and somehow position it so that it matches up with where it should be so I can 3D model it... but that's not something you can easily do. you sort of eye it, and there's no way to be sure if it's right... I tried positioning a block of the approximate shape of the object so see if I could get the isometric image to line up with the perspective lines... it was a real pain.

specifically, I'm wanting to design Transformers (toys that transform from a robot into various objects, most commonly vehicles). Having them be designed to work as actual toys is a bonus, and helps in the design process, but as an amateur hobbiest, it's not necessarily something that actually ends up getting produced.

I dunno... could this thing also be useful for... designing maps for video games? (IE: landscape & architecture)

Tini

My brother used to use Rhino in college when he would use it to make 3D models of rings and different objects. I've played around with it before and its really good.

Lawnboy360

Chaotic Descent wrote:

Unigraphics/Solid Edge. If they're both by the same company, how do you pick which is more appropriate? Strange, I don't see mention of Unigraphics on UGS's website...

Unigraphics it the old name, now it's called NX.

Businesses pick which is more appropriate based on their budget; a commercial license for NX is 10 times as expensive as one for Solid Edge. I don't know if there's a student edition for NX.

edit

As I've said before, these programs do "parametric modeling", which is way superior to what AutoCAD does.

From wikipedia:

Parametric modeling uses parameters to define a model (dimensions, for example). The parameter may be modified later, and the model will update to reflect the modification.

Example: A shaft is created by extruding a circle 100 mm. A hub is assembled to the end of the shaft. Later, the shaft is modified to be 200 mm long (click on the shaft, select the length dimension, modify to 200). When the model is updated the shaft will be 200 mm long, the hub will relocate to the end of the shaft to which it was assembled, and the engineering drawings and mass properties will reflect all changes automatically.

AutoCAD can't do that; you've got to change everything manually. If a hole is too big, you can't just go and change the diameter; you have to create a shape that will fill the hole, and then create a new, smaller hole.

A nice .gif of NX4:

blincoln

My dad has been a mechanical engineer his entire adult life (he's in his 50s now). He loathes AutoCAD, and he had experience with versions at least as far back as the Apple II era. The company he works for now uses SolidWorks, which he's a big fan of.

I've been meaning to try out BRL-CAD myself, since it's free, and the US military uses it.

Al_wat

Solidworks is really, really easy to learn (almost fun!).

About the Student Version: I'm pretty sure any files you save have either a time limit on them, or are locked so that you can only open them with the particular serial number you happen to be using - I used to have the student version and later got a full version, and can't open any of my old files.

I dont have much experience with other CAD programs, except for AutoCAD which is quite basic, and IDEAS-NX which I fucking hate with all my heart (my school uses it).

I know there are less... legal ways to obtain the software.... I'm sure you can figure it out. But even then, the software alone isn't much use without a Serial Number to activate it, which is where all the money is made.

wenchkilla

I've been taking a class on SolidWorks and I agree in that it is very simple to pick up, and it's very comfortable to design with my experience so far.

I have not tried AutoCAD, for 2d or 3d (I should considering I'm applying to Civil Engineering, but if you are a student, aka have a student email, you can get a lot of trial versions of their software at http://students.autodesk.com/

Chaotic Descent

gah. I wish there weren't two different apps named "SolidEdge" and "SolidWorks", by two different companies. it sounds like it's boiling down to those two though.

Oddjob187

SolidWorks is most defently top end software. If I had to present any sort of prototype work to my boss or the customer I usually have solidworks on the projector.

Of course I am biased, the only two programs I used are Mastercam and Solidworks. Mastercam you dont need to bother with unless your looking to do tool paths and the likes for CNC machines.

But yea, Solidworks is great.

Chaotic Descent

Oddjob187 wrote:

SolidWorks is most defently top end software. If I had to present any sort of prototype work to my boss or the customer I usually have solidworks on the projector.

Of course I am biased, the only two programs I used are Mastercam and Solidworks. Mastercam you dont need to bother with unless your looking to do tool paths and the likes for CNC machines.

But yea, Solidworks is great.

CNC/CAM does intrigue me, due to it's relation to toy manufacturing. For a hobbiest, they're not likely to be using such a thing, as they're generally expensive to rent time on, from what I hear. How do you find out how precise a result you can get with a CAM? I'm just wondering if, for example, the one at my community college might be not very good... I wonder what the legalities are for using a college CAM for a commercial product are... I'm guessing it's nowhere near as dangerous as using unlicenced software to sell commercial products. (as far as legality, not as far as likiness of getting caught while unlicenced software is clearly illegal, while the CAM is probably owned by the school and restrictions to it are only set by the school to allow students in the program to use it)

I don't recall hearing how they make the metal molds for Transformers, since the only thing I do recall is that the original toys are sculpted 100% by hand. Would/could they use a method to make a metal mold from a soft prototype? I'm just wondering what's PRACTICAL for someone who's designing Transformers on an amateur level. If there's no CAM involved... then designing it in a 3D modelling/CAD app might be a little... pointless. (or rather, cost-prohibitive)

Al_wat

Depends on how tight the tolerances are. I used to work in an automotive plastics injection factory, where a lot of their tolerances were within one thousandth of an inch. They contracted out to machinists who most likely used CAM tools to make their molds.

I could see plastic or metal die-cast toys having larger tolerances than that, but they still might use CAM for the molds.

As far as "how do you make a metal mold from a soft prototype?"; most likely the soft prototype would be made into a 3D CAD model, and then CAM tools would be used to make the metal molds.

As far as whats practical on the amature level, I'm sorry I don't really know about how much a lot of these things cost to give you a good idea. One thing though, I think it would still be a good idea to have a 3D model even if you don't want to pursue CAM, because that way you can create 2D drawings for yourself to work with really easily.

I'd Fuck Chuck Lidell Up

when you do get into CAD big, don't get "creative" with how you put your dimensions. I've been on the other side of that and I hated having to go back for every board we laid down and remeasure

oniian

Chaotic Descent wrote:

Unigraphics/Solid Edge. If they're both by the same company, how do you pick which is more appropriate? Strange, I don't see mention of Unigraphics on UGS's website...

Solid Edge use to be its own entity till it was bought by UGS. From What I remember, the reason UGS bought SE was to acquire some of its more user-friendly and intuitive nature. So for top of the line CAD products that is intuitive and user friendly Solid Edge is a great choice.

blincoln wrote:

My dad has been a mechanical engineer his entire adult life (he's in his 50s now). He loathes AutoCAD...

My dad feels the same way with the exception that he works primarily with NX and Solid Edge. He would tell you that Auto-CAD is archaic. Lawnboy360 is right, parametric modeling rocks.

blincoln

Chaotic Descent wrote:

I'm just wondering what's PRACTICAL for someone who's designing Transformers on an amateur level.

How many copies of each are you going to make?

You might look into the soft molds that amateur and garage modelbuilders make. If you haven't read up on that area before, the best place I know of (which isn't saying a whole lot, but still) is Starship Modeler. There's a whole unlicensed industry that revolves around people selling small production runs of models of spaceships from films and TV. Replica props are often made the same way - I've seen kits for phasers and pulse rifles and whatnot that came out of non-metal molds.

If I were going to do something like that, I'd make up the model in SolidWorks or whatever, have one rapid prototype made on a stereolithography machine, and use that to cast a mold.

blincoln wrote:

My dad feels the same way with the exception that he works primarily with NX and Solid Edge. He would tell you that Auto-CAD is archaic.

Yeah, the story my dad told me about AutoCAD that I always remember was that even in the last version he used, if you told it to draw a line as dashed instead of solid, it couldn't tell where that line intersected other lines if the intersection was part of the space between dashes.

I'm guessing at least part of the reason his company doesn't use NX or Solid Edge is the price - it's a smaller manufacturer, and apparently it was a bit of a struggle just to get them to pony up for SolidWorks. He gave me a demo of it last year and to my superficial eyes it looked a lot like the NX GIF from previously in this thread.

Diomedes240z

Chaotic Descent wrote:

open source CAD: Well, I'd like to know theoretically what open source VS paid CAD apps can give me. "you get what you pay for" but exactly what the difference is, is not always so clear-cut.

AutoCAD versions: is previous year's version of 2006 perfectly good? Are these pre-release versions any good?

Unigraphics/Solid Edge. If they're both by the same company, how do you pick which is more appropriate? Strange, I don't see mention of Unigraphics on UGS's website...


What I need in a CAD app is...

something that can do 3D curves. I've had trouble finding a good type of object in 3DSM that does them... Like on a smooth car like the 70's Corvette, you can see sort of "seams" that flow along like the grain of wood, but there are curves to model that don't go along that grain.

also something that's both visual (for the artist, being able to easily see it in 3D) as well as technical. 3DSM really chugs when you do anything that's not really simple with very few objects. I'm worried AutoCAD, by being classified as more "2D", won't let me view and pan the camera around in 3D as easily... I also need something that's very well designed to organize different steps in the design process. in Max, the organization is all done manually. YOU set up a plane and load an image file as it's texture.

I remember a recent project I WANTED to do, and where this ability has been desired in previous projects, where I want to take an isometric 2D image and somehow position it so that it matches up with where it should be so I can 3D model it... but that's not something you can easily do. you sort of eye it, and there's no way to be sure if it's right... I tried positioning a block of the approximate shape of the object so see if I could get the isometric image to line up with the perspective lines... it was a real pain.

specifically, I'm wanting to design Transformers (toys that transform from a robot into various objects, most commonly vehicles). Having them be designed to work as actual toys is a bonus, and helps in the design process, but as an amateur hobbiest, it's not necessarily something that actually ends up getting produced.

I dunno... could this thing also be useful for... designing maps for video games? (IE: landscape & architecture)

If you want to do fluid 3d curvy stuff, 70's corvette bodies, as you said, solids modellers will always hold you back; you'll have to look in completely another direction; surface modellers. Alias Maya or Catea or something like that. I don't really know anything about surface modellers, only that they're what you should be looking for.


Also, somebody mentioned something about AutoCAD versions... 2002 I think is best. After that, it got a couple of extra features, but is really slow and unstable. Everybody above who is ragging on AutoCAD and saying it's crap... ...is right. :P But it's still the industry standard. :shock:

Al_wat

Solidworks does surface modeling pretty well.

oniian

If thats what you want and you don't care about dimensions but just asethics then Rhino would be a good choice.

Chaotic Descent

hrm. I hadn't checked this thread in a few days. BTW, thanks for the replies.
I don't know if I can accomplish anything by continuing the discussion or not but...

this isn't technically a question restricted to CAD... but does anyone know if there's a 3D util that will allow me to animate something BEFORE I've finished modelling the parts? in Max, if you change anything... hrm. Now I'm showing my ignorance... oh yes, now I remember one specific point. a symmetrical object has to be re-rigged. ... I think. damn, it's been so long since I took that 3D character modelling and animation class. =(

I'm going to be trying out SolidWorks in a day or so... hopefully it lets me be artistic enough, even though I was looking for more technical stuff than in Max.

commie wrote:

when you do get into CAD big, don't get "creative" with how you put your dimensions. I've been on the other side of that and I hated having to go back for every board we laid down and remeasure

On the other hand, being "precise" doesn't seem to be recomended for modelling a car in a 3D modelling program. Everyone's telling me to do it by eye and only use images as guides. :S
... oh man. I just laid out this "blueprint" of a Corvette beside the measurements I took from a scale model of a Corvette that I own, and they totally don't match up. I bet this "blueprint" is an approximate hand-drawn diagram for applying decals to a model or something. that's very inaccurate. oh well. if I ever made this, I couldn't sell it since it's a licenced car. :S it sure it taking a hell of a long time to model using measurements though.

Chaotic Descent

Al_wat wrote:

Depends on how tight the tolerances are. I used to work in an automotive plastics injection factory, where a lot of their tolerances were within one thousandth of an inch. They contracted out to machinists who most likely used CAM tools to make their molds.

I've heard about tolerances. Although somehow I think once the mold is cast, it's done, and the varying results of the products are due to... I dunno, the plastic not being mixed exactly the same, or it being a colder day or something.
In Transformers, although we've learned a LOT about the process behind it, we don't get these kinds of specifics.

As far as "how do you make a metal mold from a soft prototype?"; most likely the soft prototype would be made into a 3D CAD model, and then CAM tools would be used to make the metal molds.

Well, I'm not sure about that... we've been told the toys are created completely by hand. I don't even think they do any laser scanning.

As far as whats practical on the amature level, I'm sorry I don't really know about how much a lot of these things cost to give you a good idea. One thing though, I think it would still be a good idea to have a 3D model even if you don't want to pursue CAM, because that way you can create 2D drawings for yourself to work with really easily.

Heh. Well no matter what, you have to work hard to learn skills. You either learn how to draw something so it looks the same from different angles and poses, or you learn to model something. I don't REALLY think 3D modelling is any easier. It's more technical, that's for sure.

blincoln wrote:

Chaotic Descent wrote:

I'm just wondering what's PRACTICAL for someone who's designing Transformers on an amateur level.

How many copies of each are you going to make?

Uhhh... I don't know. I've NEVER done anything like this. I've done drawings of stuff over the years, and dream about actually completing them all. It would be NICE if I could sell them, but I don't know if they're markettable. at least some of my ideas would be 100% original, so no threat of treading on anyone's toes. (though truth be told, Hasbro doesn't mind fans profitting off their intellectual property as long as the technical work is original and they don't use any of the trademarked names)

You might look into the soft molds that amateur and garage modelbuilders make. If you haven't read up on that area before, the best place I know of (which isn't saying a whole lot, but still) is Starship Modeler. There's a whole unlicensed industry that revolves around people selling small production runs of models of spaceships from films and TV. Replica props are often made the same way - I've seen kits for phasers and pulse rifles and whatnot that came out of non-metal molds.

I've read about mold-making, but I've never actually done it, and I don't remember a lot of the details.

If I were going to do something like that, I'd make up the model in SolidWorks or whatever, have one rapid prototype made on a stereolithography machine, and use that to cast a mold.

Well, I've seen Transformers fans do things by a LOT of different methods. Some build them by scratch with styrene. Some use model kits for the shell. Some use parts from other Transformers.