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Aesthetic Beauty and Dealing with Male Guilt
Romantic Undead
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Hey everyone,
So a thought occurred to me on the bus this morning that I thought would make for an interesting debate. Disclaimer: I am currently involved in a wonderful relationship with a lovely lady who I happen to think is beautiful. She, however, is self-conscious about her looks. She is slightly overweight and, like most women, is constantly fretting over every little blemish, imperfection, whether the gap in her teeth is too big, her hairstyle, and so on and so on.
Men, as most everyone knows, aren't quite as concerned with their looks. I realize that I too am a little overweight and that my baldness can be seen as unattractive to some but knowing this doesn't have the same impact on my self confidence that it appears to have on women.
I continuously tell my girlfriend how beautiful I think she is and that I think she worries too much about her looks. I want her to to take pride in her apperance, of course, but not to let it distress her too much. She calls me "crazy" for thinking she's beautiful but I know she appreciates my comments just the same.
Now comes the turn: I realize, objectively, that yes, in the pure sense of aesthetics, there are more attractive women than my girlfriend out there. Despite my love for her, I cannot, of course, convince myself truly that she's the most beautiful woman in the world. A pair of shapely legs or breasts still turn my head, as does a luscious head of hair, sultry voice and sparkling eyes. Never have I had any desire to cheat on my girlfriend, but part of me feels guilty just the same when I look upon a more attractive woman.
So my question to you, D&D :
Men: How do you deal with what seems to be an inability to control your wandering eyes, despite your best intentions towards your partner. How do you reconcile your physical attraction for your partner, and your desire for her to be comfortable in her own skin, with your own desire to look upon what might be objectively called "more beautiful" people?
Women: What are your feelings towards the male inclination to be attracted to aesthetics? Have you accepted the fact that we're seemingly incorrigibly attracted to outer appearances, or do you feel that this is a part of the human condition that needs to, and can be, addressed by our society?
So a thought occurred to me on the bus this morning that I thought would make for an interesting debate. Disclaimer: I am currently involved in a wonderful relationship with a lovely lady who I happen to think is beautiful. She, however, is self-conscious about her looks. She is slightly overweight and, like most women, is constantly fretting over every little blemish, imperfection, whether the gap in her teeth is too big, her hairstyle, and so on and so on.
Men, as most everyone knows, aren't quite as concerned with their looks. I realize that I too am a little overweight and that my baldness can be seen as unattractive to some but knowing this doesn't have the same impact on my self confidence that it appears to have on women.
I continuously tell my girlfriend how beautiful I think she is and that I think she worries too much about her looks. I want her to to take pride in her apperance, of course, but not to let it distress her too much. She calls me "crazy" for thinking she's beautiful but I know she appreciates my comments just the same.
Now comes the turn: I realize, objectively, that yes, in the pure sense of aesthetics, there are more attractive women than my girlfriend out there. Despite my love for her, I cannot, of course, convince myself truly that she's the most beautiful woman in the world. A pair of shapely legs or breasts still turn my head, as does a luscious head of hair, sultry voice and sparkling eyes. Never have I had any desire to cheat on my girlfriend, but part of me feels guilty just the same when I look upon a more attractive woman.
So my question to you, D&D :
Men: How do you deal with what seems to be an inability to control your wandering eyes, despite your best intentions towards your partner. How do you reconcile your physical attraction for your partner, and your desire for her to be comfortable in her own skin, with your own desire to look upon what might be objectively called "more beautiful" people?
Women: What are your feelings towards the male inclination to be attracted to aesthetics? Have you accepted the fact that we're seemingly incorrigibly attracted to outer appearances, or do you feel that this is a part of the human condition that needs to, and can be, addressed by our society?
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Pretty much this. And then the times when your female friends point out other girls to you, that one kind of throws you off a bit.
The reciprocal is also true, as I don't care if she looks at someone else. I trust her.
Also helps that when it comes to our sexual relationship, she knows that she can talk to me about anything she wants, and vice versa.
Communication + Trust = Win
Oh and she also has personal image issues (as do most women) and I regularly remind her that even when she has bed head and morning breath, she is beautiful to me
That right there is what's up. Being able to openly talk about things instead of letting them stew into passive-aggressive bullcrap is pretty much the greatest relationship advice ever. And why should anyone care if you check someone out? I don't think that looking at an attractive person has to be a sexual thing, and I think that's a pretty commonly held belief.
On that note, my wife, quite frustratingly, swears up and down that she doesn't look and has not seen another man she has found attractive since meeting me. I find that to be one hundred percent pure bullshit and I've all but called her out on it, but she steadfastly swears this is the case (and no, I'm not the most attractive dude by quite a large margin; I'm not ugly either, but I'm not going to land on the cover of GQ anytime soon). I just can't see how someone refuses to admit that they find other people aesthetically pleasing. It strikes me as very odd.
Yeah, that almost sounds like she is following advice from a magazine or something....movies/TV are the great opportunity to gawk at the opposite sex without fear of repercussion. I'd be interested to hear if you wife would admit to enjoying watching a sex scene in a movie (I'm talking about normal pg13/16 TV and movies here). If so that's pretty much admitting she finds the male in the scene "aesthetically pleasing". My girlfriend and I both admit to enjoying the sex scene and I consider it normal and harmless.
I "deal" by not weighing myself down with pointless guilt over something that harmless/innocent/jesus dude, everyone looks including your wife/sister/mother/grandmother.
If you think that nice old lady who you held the door open for was just looking and smiling because you remind her of her grandson, well, think again. :P
Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
Now I'm not saying I want her salivating over every guy she sees or something, but this is the first time I've ever met anyone who actively denies finding other males attractive aside from the one she's with. It almost seems like she's making a conscious effort to refrain from even looking at other guys, and that really seems a bit unhealthy to me. I mean, she doesn't really say anything about it so I rarely bring it up, but still, it's just odd. Maybe I'm way off and there are tons of people who do this though, I don't know.
But, this also makes external appearance a much bigger issue for women, who think that men are judging them much more harshly. This is a conversation I've had with one of my exes, and I'm not really sure how to go about changing this, if it can be changed.
It's sort of a self perpetuating cycle. Girls tend to grab a glimpse of a hot guy out of the corner of their eyes, guys tent to stare, giving the appearance that guys check out girls more than girls check out guys and therefore making it more socially acceptable for guys to stare at girls than for girls to star at guys, so girls grab glimpses of hot guys out of the corner of their eyes....
It may also be that guys tend to have higher libido so we are thinking about sex more often and are perhaps more prone to noticing girls and stare/fantasize briefly. We might be talking about the difference between a 1/4 second glance and a 1/8 second glance or the difference between moving your head the slightest fraction or only moving your eyes. It doesn't seem like much, but if it's occurring en mass in society it adds up quickly.
Tree'd for truth!
that's something you have to deal with
Just because you're on a diet doesn't mean you can't look at the menu, as the old saying goes.
Looking's fine; ogling's creepy. Smiling, and chatting up and flirting are fine too, so long as egos are being placated and no one's being led on.
Avoiding looking at a pretty face or a hot body is not a top priority w/r/to "controlling wandering eyes", not like avoiding staring at a disfigurement of some kind.
Reconciling my partners concern about her looks and my desires to look upon other pretty people is easy: I don't compare and contrast. It also helps that if my partner observes me checking out another woman she doesn't jump to interpret that as I'm looking for something she lacks, and she can enjoy an eyeful too.
An issue both genders has is jealousy and possessiveness. While essentially every healthy relationship requires some exclusivity, requiring exclusivity to the point of not noticing or appreciating the comeliness of another person is neither fair nor realistic.
Its really a separate issue from her self-esteem/looks issues, if she does have a problem with that. There might be self-worth issues but its more fundamental than the looks thing. The most arrogant guy in the world can be jealous and possessive (and that's what someone who can't stand you looking at someone else is being).
Now in this case it might be your issues, not your girl's. You think you're doing something wrong, and thus you feel guilty. That doesn't mean you're doing something wrong, or that your girl thinks you are doing something wrong. As long as you don't intend to follow up on your appraisal, and you don't rub it in her face (etc) then your guilt is probably more your issue.
You could build a house up here! (for truth)
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
I dunno, that's flirting with disaster...
I look at other pretty girls but feel no guilt. They can be pretty and all but that says nothing what they are as a person. The girl I am with, however, is pretty and an enjoyable person that I wake up everyday and choose to love, to put at or above myself.
Also, obligated because this is what has lead a great relationship for me:
A house of love built so high up with an unbreakable foundation for us!
and get this: both people in the relationship have to deal with it!
can we just remove the "male" bit from the title of this thread?
It also helps to point out that with some women you're not looking at them purely for sexual reasons. Like women who go jogging with inappropriate breast support -- I often comment "geez lady, that has to hurt when you get home" and my wife says "yeah no kidding." Which really means that she was looking at the same thing.
But my house is still plenty large. It also has really great architecture. The rooms are placed just right, and the living area is perfectly tailored to my home theater needs. It has a great yard, which is a good size.
Maybe my house could be larger, but then I would have to worry about cleaning more than I do. I hate having to worry about cleaning. My house is not so large that I need ever worry, but still large enough that I know people in smaller homes look at mine with appreciation and perhaps just a bit of envy.
And when I lie in my house at night, it feels safe and comfortable. It feels like home. Coming home to my house always feels good, feels inviting.
It is my house, and it is my home, and I wouldn't want another.
NNID: Hakkekage
she's a brick
house
Given the context of the thread, this post is awesome. This is going to be my 1000th post and I am going to report this post for awesome to celebrate.
EDIT: Bastards! I need a thousand and ONE posts. Going to go post somewhere else now.
EDIT: Woo! Done.
Attraction is not zero-sum. I don't have an attraction bank from which I make withdrawals every time I look upon a beautiful woman. My attraction towards Alyson Hannigan does not diminish my attraction to my partner.
In fact, if I find women beautiful, and my partner is a particular example of what I find beautiful, it is absolutely natural and in fact pretty much guaranteed that I will find other women attractive.
Physical attractiveness is not my only criterion for being in a relationship with somebody; or even wanting to have sex with somebody. I've met gorgeous women who I wouldn't fuck with somebody else's dick. I've known people who did not appear particularly attractive at first blush but something about their personality, their thoughts, the way they spoke, or the way they moved gave them an ephemeral allure. We all need to be comfortable knowing that even if we do not compare to models or Greek sculptures, we still have non-physical qualities that make us good partners.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Anyway, i am one of those girls who (until incredibly recently wherein I am clambering out of this stupid hole) worries inordinately about appearance and fears that I could be the best person in the world (which I'm not but for hypothetical purposes here) but would always be inevitably passed over for someone hotter and nicer
getting told by him over and over that i'm not ugly is a pretty good first step though so
:^:
NNID: Hakkekage
But I have this feeling that you could, in literal fact, somehow pull that off.
Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
Strangely enough I have a real difficulty telling if a guy is physically attractive to women beyond very broad things (fat=bad, acne=bad, etc). I used to think it was a block I'd subconsciously put in since gay=gross but now I think its just another facet of my weird perception blocks (I can't find stuff right next to me sometimes for instance).
And the only people who check out women more than heterosexual horny teenage males is other women. If I see a girl, 99 times out of a hundred my girl saw her first. So I can say something like, "Why would she wear 6 inch heels to a kids soccer game?" and she'll know what I'm talking about.
This is a penis metaphor, right?
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
And also in my experience, I have absolutely no idea what women find attractive, and vice versa, so I'm kind of meh on the 'point out attractive people' idea.
What metaphor?
Yes, there is the possibility that there is somebody in the world more beautiful and more compatible with me than my partner. But if that girl happens to live in Ireland, that doesn't do me a whole hell of a lot of good, does it?
It's not terribly romantic to think, "Yep, I'm with this person partially because we happened to be single and living in the same state at the same time" but it's generally the truth.
We really want to believe that we're with our partners because we managed to find the most beautiful person in the whole wide world. What I find is more accurate, though, is that all humans have inner beauty, and we find love when we manage to find somebody with whom we can explore and expose that inner beauty.
I do not choose a partner because I love her. I choose a partner as somebody I want to learn to love.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
i am laughing so hard
If you are the greatest gal in the world, but not the prettiest, you will absolutely be passed over for someone hotter. Again and again. Except the people passing you over are ultimately not the guys you want to be with, unless your goal is to be with someone who is so shallow that he prizes looks above all else.
I'm not the greatest looking guy in the world. And I know for a fact that I was often turned down in favor of guys better looking than me, or in better shape, or with larger muscles. The upshot of this was that I found a woman who thinks I am the most awesome thing in the universe, and I think she is the most awesome thing in the universe. So it worked out pretty well.
This is a point I was hoping would come up.
As we all know, women face societal pressures to look good, much more than men do. This would seem to feed the bias that men are more visually geared towards physical aesthetics than women are.
That being said, the counter to this societal pressure has always been "looks don't matter". But that's disingenuous. Like it or not, looks DO matter to men. They just don't matter as much as most women are raised to believe.
Yup. If I want to be rational about it, I can admit that there are probably literally hundreds of thousands of girls I am just as compatible with spread across the globe.
Except I've found a girl wonderful enough that I never give that notion so much as a second's thought, outside the context of discussions about that very topic.
your op talks about feeling guilty for looking at other women
guess what I feel guilty for looking and thinking about other guys
it's a universal problem for anyone in a relationship
if you wanted to talk about gender stereotypes you probably should have just said so