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At What Point Is the Pursuit of a Healthy Life Excessive?
Hexmage-PA
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
WARNING: If you have a tendency to obsess over your health or would like to remain blissfully unaware of several possible hazards to human health, I suggest that you leave this thread right now to preserve your peace of mind.
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Let's say we have a hypothetical male who is obese, a smoker, doesn't exercise, and eats too much meat and not enough vegetables. Something happens to make this person want to get healthier, and so they stop smoking, begin exercising regularly, and starts eating less meats and fattening foods and more fruits and vegetables.
Eventually this person gets to a healthy weight and has developed healthy habits. However, something happens and he starts reading about toxins and carcinogens that are supposedly in the environment around him. He starts leaving his windows open during the day and buys several potted plants for his apartment to reduce the contaminants in the air. He begin wearing longsleeve shirts and applying sunscreen to his face and neck everyday. Whenever he walks past a person smoking on the street he tries his best to hold his breath until he is a good bit away from the smoker.
Just when he's taken care of these things to his satisfaction he hears about supposed risks associated with things most people use everyday. After hearing about how cellphones might possibly cause brain tumors he stops holding his to his ear and begins turning on the speakerphone and holding the phone away from him whenever he needs to use it. He starts buying only organic fruits and vegetables when he hears about how the pesticides and other chemicals sprayed on the produce could possibly be harmful to humans. Although he greatly enjoys fish and chicken, he also stops eating meat entirely after hearing how toxins can concentrate in livestock.
While browsing on his favorite health blog he reads that various chemicals in household products could be dangerous, too. He makes sure to buy organic versions of everything: shampoos, deoderants, soaps, even clothes. He stops using sunscreen because of the possibility that harmful chemicals could be leeching into his skin. He also stops using plastic cups, plates, and bowls entirely in favor of glassware.
One night on the news he hears about a study that shows that lab mice who are fed calorie-restricted diets tend to live much longer than normal mice and that calorie-restricted diets could have the same effect on humans. He starts keeping track of the calories he consumes in a day and makes sure to eat the absolute minimum he needs. He loses more weight and appears unusually thin, but according to his research online this is normal for people undertaking calorie-restricted diets.
Eventually he decides that he doesn't like breathing the polluted city air and decides to move to a small, rural community where the air is cleaner. He sells his car and starts riding his bicycle everywhere, making sure to only ride on backroads with almost no traffic. Whenever a car does come close he puts a small mask over his nose and mouth to avoid inhaling exhaust and waits a minute or two before removing it.
Finally, after much thought, he decides that he would like to have several of his nonessential organs surgically removed, thinking that it would be better to risk being anaesthetized several times than to remain with several unnecessary organs that could possibly develop cancer. Among these organs are his mammary glands; while men have a very small risk of ever developing breast cancer, he reasons that he doesn't need them and that once they are gone he won't have any risk whatsoever.
Though it has cost him a lot of money and required drastic alterations to his lifestyle he has done all he can to remove as much risk to his health and longevity as possible. He deeply regrets the damage he had done to his body previously with is lack of exercise, poor diet, and smoking. He sometimes fears that his former bad habits have caused lasting damage that will cause him harm in the future, but tries to rid himself of anxiety because stress can be hazardous to his health, too.
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I'm sorry for the wall of text, but I feel that this (highly unlikely) story would help with this discussion. The hypothetical man in this story undertook drastic measures in pursuit of a long, healthy life.
My question is this: Was it worth it, and if not, at what point did his quest to take care of his health become excessive? Where is the line betwen precaution and obsession? Is there a point at which pursuit of health and longevity becomes detrimental?
There are several dangers to our health in the world, some whose effects we can mitigate and some that are beyond our control. Some of these beyond our control could be present at all times, and we could even be completely unaware of some of them. For example, there appears to be a rise in the occurence of testicular cancer as of now, and some researchers believe that chemicals (so-called endocrine disruptors) present in many products could be the culprits.
At what point does the pursuit of a heathy, long life become excessive? Is it subjective from person to person? Is the person who rejects possibly harmful pleasures such as sweets in exchange for a greater possiblilty of a long and healthy life objectively better in some way than the overweight person who would rather enjoy sweets than forsake them for the possibilty of a longer life that could still be cut short by unexpected circumtances anyway?
___________________________________________________________________
Let's say we have a hypothetical male who is obese, a smoker, doesn't exercise, and eats too much meat and not enough vegetables. Something happens to make this person want to get healthier, and so they stop smoking, begin exercising regularly, and starts eating less meats and fattening foods and more fruits and vegetables.
Eventually this person gets to a healthy weight and has developed healthy habits. However, something happens and he starts reading about toxins and carcinogens that are supposedly in the environment around him. He starts leaving his windows open during the day and buys several potted plants for his apartment to reduce the contaminants in the air. He begin wearing longsleeve shirts and applying sunscreen to his face and neck everyday. Whenever he walks past a person smoking on the street he tries his best to hold his breath until he is a good bit away from the smoker.
Just when he's taken care of these things to his satisfaction he hears about supposed risks associated with things most people use everyday. After hearing about how cellphones might possibly cause brain tumors he stops holding his to his ear and begins turning on the speakerphone and holding the phone away from him whenever he needs to use it. He starts buying only organic fruits and vegetables when he hears about how the pesticides and other chemicals sprayed on the produce could possibly be harmful to humans. Although he greatly enjoys fish and chicken, he also stops eating meat entirely after hearing how toxins can concentrate in livestock.
While browsing on his favorite health blog he reads that various chemicals in household products could be dangerous, too. He makes sure to buy organic versions of everything: shampoos, deoderants, soaps, even clothes. He stops using sunscreen because of the possibility that harmful chemicals could be leeching into his skin. He also stops using plastic cups, plates, and bowls entirely in favor of glassware.
One night on the news he hears about a study that shows that lab mice who are fed calorie-restricted diets tend to live much longer than normal mice and that calorie-restricted diets could have the same effect on humans. He starts keeping track of the calories he consumes in a day and makes sure to eat the absolute minimum he needs. He loses more weight and appears unusually thin, but according to his research online this is normal for people undertaking calorie-restricted diets.
Eventually he decides that he doesn't like breathing the polluted city air and decides to move to a small, rural community where the air is cleaner. He sells his car and starts riding his bicycle everywhere, making sure to only ride on backroads with almost no traffic. Whenever a car does come close he puts a small mask over his nose and mouth to avoid inhaling exhaust and waits a minute or two before removing it.
Finally, after much thought, he decides that he would like to have several of his nonessential organs surgically removed, thinking that it would be better to risk being anaesthetized several times than to remain with several unnecessary organs that could possibly develop cancer. Among these organs are his mammary glands; while men have a very small risk of ever developing breast cancer, he reasons that he doesn't need them and that once they are gone he won't have any risk whatsoever.
Though it has cost him a lot of money and required drastic alterations to his lifestyle he has done all he can to remove as much risk to his health and longevity as possible. He deeply regrets the damage he had done to his body previously with is lack of exercise, poor diet, and smoking. He sometimes fears that his former bad habits have caused lasting damage that will cause him harm in the future, but tries to rid himself of anxiety because stress can be hazardous to his health, too.
___________________________________________________________________
I'm sorry for the wall of text, but I feel that this (highly unlikely) story would help with this discussion. The hypothetical man in this story undertook drastic measures in pursuit of a long, healthy life.
My question is this: Was it worth it, and if not, at what point did his quest to take care of his health become excessive? Where is the line betwen precaution and obsession? Is there a point at which pursuit of health and longevity becomes detrimental?
There are several dangers to our health in the world, some whose effects we can mitigate and some that are beyond our control. Some of these beyond our control could be present at all times, and we could even be completely unaware of some of them. For example, there appears to be a rise in the occurence of testicular cancer as of now, and some researchers believe that chemicals (so-called endocrine disruptors) present in many products could be the culprits.
At what point does the pursuit of a heathy, long life become excessive? Is it subjective from person to person? Is the person who rejects possibly harmful pleasures such as sweets in exchange for a greater possiblilty of a long and healthy life objectively better in some way than the overweight person who would rather enjoy sweets than forsake them for the possibilty of a longer life that could still be cut short by unexpected circumtances anyway?
Hexmage-PA on
0
Posts
Answer: When the pursuit itself negatively impacts one's quality of life to such a degree that it overwhelms the positive health benefits.
That wasn't so hard, was it?
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Well, yeah, but you could say basically that about any potentially excessive behavior.
You could and should.
I don't know if you read my hypothetical scenario, but how do you think that applies to what I wrote? If the man in my story is concerned enough about his health to take such drastic measures, do you think that justifies said measures or do you think that person should seek pyschiatric help instead to help manage his health anxieties?
Well, yes, exactly.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
This seems excessive to me.
Do you want to discuss the costs and benefits of each individual measure he's taking?
I mean, we can do that, but I don't think that's what you're after.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
In general most people who live a long time have relatively boring lives. Monotony and routine keep people going. The phrase "The #1 killer of the elderly is retirement" exists for a reason.
People, in general, do things that will harm their health as a trade-off for having fun. You eat some icecream, or buy a motorcycle, or pursue a dangerous sport, or smoke because you feel that pleasure now is worth the shortened lifespan. I don't think all people make this decision consciously each and every time, but that's what it boils down to. There's no way that you don't know what you are doing is dangerous or harmful, but you feel the risks are worth it.
If some people want to go the extra length to be healthy, and if they PERSONALLY don't feel that their actions are a hindrance on their quality of life, then let them be paranoid.
I get the feeling that this sort of behavior is her way of trying to compensate for something else in her life that she feels she has no control over.
Example: I read a story once about a guy who was obsessed with living really long. He kept his house really cool to keep vital signs slower (and thus live longer), and kept his food intake at near-starvation levels for the same reason.
I'd rather have some quality in my life and live to 85, than live like that guy and die at 130.
Eating organic food I understand.
Not smoking or drinking I understand.
However, there's absolutely no reason to believe that "cleansing" diets do anything.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I thought there was a recent study or something where nearly all nutritionists agreed that "detoxifying" processes are all bullshit.
I wouldn't mind.
Detoxifying is to nutrition as creationism is to biology.
If a vegan diet causes her to pass out from hunger she's doing it wrong.
I think you hit the nail right here. If your desire to be healthy is really just enabling your control issues then it has become excessive.
Srsly.
OR when you start taking supplements that just do not work, so yea, cleansing. Cleansing I swear to god is only related to LA. I have incredibly intelligent friends, IE phd in physics friends, who live in LA and cleanse. Similarly i have jock car salesmen friends in the midwest who i doubt know what cleansing is.
OR when you start buying home work out equipment that takes up an entire room.
Also organic food is delicious I LOVE YOU WHOLE FOODS PIZZA
In short:
I don't think dust masks stop exhaust fumes.
I don't think brief passing-bye second-hand cigarette smoke exposure in an outdoor environment is going to have any measurable effect on health.
The evidence for caloric restriction in humans is mostly speculative.
Removing organs is silly; there are very few organs you can remove without significant health effects, and I don't know if that would have any protective effect against cancer.
Having more plants in your environment couldn't hurt, and certainly would help most people's mental state, but I don't know how much objective benefit they would have.
Wearing sunscreen, eating fresh fruits and veggies, and exercising are all completely rational though.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
If there's stuff that makes sense that you're not doing, you're not doing enough. If you're doing stuff that doesn't make sense, you're doing too much. (These are not mutually exclusive. This isn't a number line.)
The only real controversy is what makes sense and what does not, and for that we'd need to talk about specific risks and specific potential countermeasures.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
That might be an interesting discussion (although I'd rather steer clear of the usual "work-out routines and diet" discussions and stick with "Is this beneficial or is it unnecessary?").
For example, I've often heard the claim that it's better to use organic shampoos, deodorants and soaps (among other things) because the non-organic varieties often used contain potentially-harmful chemicals. For example, my high school health teacher said that he uses organic deodorant because he thinks the aluminum in commercial deodorant causes alzhiemer's disease.
I know that organic does not equal healthy and artificial does not equal hazardous, but I would like to know if there's any real reason to buy organic products
What's wrong with this? Some people have spare rooms in their homes.
Pretty much. It's just another name for "old age".
As for holding ridiculous, statistically impossible beliefs, it's really up to the individual to inform themselves or to believe any evidence put in front of them. For example, my co-worker yesterday told me and my supervisor how dangerous it was for my supervisor to have a printer in her office, because "something in the chemicals can give you cancer". She didn't even feel comfortable with the fact that we had a few large printers on the floor, the closest of which is still a good 35-40 feet away from her.
We tried to explain that this was pretty ridiculous, but her response was "but still, you can't be too careful"
I find there are a group of people that when confronted with evidence that their beliefs, especially health beliefs, are misplaced, they will respond with that. I don't know if they find comfort in their paranoia, but eventually you have to stop trying to convince them otherwise. They're not listening.
Yeah, it's hard to tell when "It's better to be safe than sorry" crosses the line from precaution to paranoia.
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There were studies in the late 80s that showed a correlation between detectable levels of aluminum in the blood and Alzheimers.
There is no known mechanism by which blood-borne aluminum would cross the blood-brain barrier and cause Alzheimers, nor is there any correlation with the use of aluminum antiperspirants and blood aluminum.
This is not to say that there is no causal chain from deodorant to Alzheimer's, only that it is extremely unlikely, and that the correlation has another explanation.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
And if all she did was advocate organic eating and no drinking or smoking, I'd be fine with it. It's the line she crosses when she starts talking about going on a "cleanse" that makes me want to throttle her. Every one of her (sane) friends tries to get her to stop, but I think it's a compulsion. A misplaced effort to fix something ELSE in her life.
I wonder how many people who go all out with healthy "lifestyle choices" are in the same boat as her, and how many are actually just paranoid.
I'm sympathetic, though. I have very sensitive skin - a lot of over-the-counter skin products cause me to break out in hives or a butterfly rash on my face. Once I find a brand I like, I cling on to it for dear life. Right now, it's Aveeno shaving cream & sunblock, Cetaphil facial wash, and Shikai bath wash. Switching brands is basically playing russian roulette - is this product going to make me break out like an itchy tomato until my Claritin kicks in?. However, one of the above brands (Shikai) I found in a hippie granola organic health food store - and, in general, if I'm going to go with an unknown brand, I'm going to have an easier time finding something that works for me at a Whole Foods than at a Walgreens. So, yeah, there are some "chemicals" or "toxins" (to use annoying vague language) used in common commercial products but not in a lot of organic products that seem to react badly with my body.
But what are they? I dunno. Are there "natural" chemicals that could cause the same reaction? Probably. Is "natural" necessarily better? Probably not.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Can we talk deoderants for a bit? Cool?
I don't make a point to specifically avoid aluminum, but I do make a point to avoid antiperspirants. As I understand it, these basically function by clogging your pores so that you can't sweat out of them anymore. While I have no evidence for this, it strikes me as... unhealthy to cram weird chemicals into your pores like tiny corks in order to keep your body from doing something it's pretty much meant to do. And while I'm not a huge sweater, whenever I've gone from using an antiperspirant to a non-antiperspirant deoderant, my armpits sweat like motherfuckers, like a once-asphyxiating person gasping for air.
So is there any reason at all to avoid antiperspirants? Or am I just sort of batty?
I don't know of any empirical evidence to support your opinion, but I more or less agree. I don't sweat much either, but I can't see how suppressing the sweat function for vanity could be a good thing in the long run.
The thing is that you don't need to stop sweating, you need to make your pits inhospitable to the bacteria that convert sweat into stinky byproducts. Regular deodorants do that.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I personally don't use 'em 'cause they turn the pits of my white undershirts yellow. And it's not a yellow that ever EVER comes out.
Is that how they work? I didn't know that. I assumed it was basically glorified perfume.
I feel smarter now.
They primarily work as glorified perfume, but a secondary (mostly serendipitous) effect is to inhibit the growth of bacteria.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.