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DX10 GPU questions

SmilingoatSmilingoat Registered User
edited December 2006 in Help / Advice Forum
im building a new desktop in january, ive stated that before, right now there is only one DX10 GPU out (the 8800) if im not mistaken, ive been told there will be several others out in january, including some from ATI. i just need to know if this is firm, and if its worth the extra cost to get the dx10 cars, ive heard its more of a physics engine for developers and wont really show as much of a difference between dx8 and 9.

personally i have no idea, i just want to make sure the system will be decent for about the next 4 years. im getting the 2.4ghz dual core intel, and then im kind of split with the gpu right now, i dont know if i should get a dual card set up now with previous gen cards, or get a single new gen card and upgrade it to dual this summer.

i just want it to last as long as possible, without getting too outdated, also im not sure what the new cars have over the old ones (if much)

any links to info about all the new cars would be great.

thanks

edAt:
lol, cars = cards, im a huge car fan and my hands are used to typing cars far more than cards, didnt even notice i did it until i read the post over.

whos havin butt-seks
Smilingoat on

Posts

  • blincolnblincoln Registered User
    edited November 2006
    Four years? I don't think that's even possible. If you're planning on spending a ton of money in that hope, I would recommend spending less and putting together a good system now that you can afford to either upgrade gradually over time or replace more frequently.

    blincoln on
    Legacy of Kain: The Lost Worlds
    http://www.thelostworlds.net/
  • SmilingoatSmilingoat Registered User
    edited November 2006
    im not expecting it to play the newest games at the highest settings for the next 4 years, but a dual GPU/dual core CPU setup, with proper ram etc. should allow the system to be decent enouph for high end gaming today (And the next year/2 years) and decent gaming for the second half of that...

    Smilingoat on
    whos havin butt-seks
  • Lucky CynicLucky Cynic Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Smilingoat wrote:
    im not expecting it to play the newest games at the highest settings for the next 4 years, but a dual GPU/dual core CPU setup, with proper ram etc. should allow the system to be decent enouph for high end gaming today (And the next year/2 years) and decent gaming for the second half of that...

    I'd guess while yes, you will still be able to play games, just dont expect to run them at 1600x1200 with all the bells and whistles at 60fps in four years. Maybe two years, tops. But you will still be able to play any game quite well enough for years to come, especially backed up with a good amoutn of ram and a good processor. I would suggest buying one now, Wait until march, at the very least, imo. I know it sucks, but $650 right now is too much and you will feel stupid when in a matter of weeks, the price will continue to roll on down.

    Lucky Cynic on
  • RookRook Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Directx10 doesn't have a whole lot of new graphical effects, but it does do everything smarter. So whilst you could set something up looking very similar in Dx9, it'll be cheaper to do in Dx10.

    And the 8800GTX/GTS single pretty much smokes all the previous cards in SLI/Crossfire from the previous gen, and that's before you start running things in Dx10 which should be a lot better.

    And you'll probably manage about 3-4 years with an 8800gtx I think, The 9700 came out in 2002 and you could have played pretty much everything that's come out so far at a reasonable setting even today (1gb, 3200xp and 9700pro).

    As for waiting I really don't think the new ATi card is going to make the 8800 look slow. It sounds more optimised for Dx10 but until it actually hits then it's pretty much guesswork. There's no harm in waiting but if you want to put money down now then I don't think you can go wrong.

    Rook on
  • SmilingoatSmilingoat Registered User
    edited November 2006
    cool cool, yeah i wouldnt expect to play the best games at highest settings in 4 years, i just want to be able to still play the NEWEST games in 4 years (not at the highest settings)

    anyway, is there just not much info out at all about these cards? ive never had to wait for a card, every time ive built a computer its been well into the generation so i had plenty to choose from... i just dont want to waste my money... also you can dual these new cards later on down the road right?

    Smilingoat on
    whos havin butt-seks
  • DeusfauxDeusfaux Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    you will not be able to play all the newest games in 4 years. even if you could run them, it would hardly be a fun or pretty experience

    4 years after we got the 7200, UT2k4 was the last game I could really manage with it.

    actually that was only 3 and a half years.

    Deusfaux on
  • Lucky CynicLucky Cynic Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Yeah, you can run them in SLI but remember that SLI is actually still fairly buggy, even more-so with Quad SLI. Again, with time, eveyrthing gets better. You don't need to play Oblivion at 2500x1600 and at 60fps tomorrow, do you? :wink:

    Be smart, think economically.

    Lucky Cynic on
  • SmilingoatSmilingoat Registered User
    edited November 2006
    true, i dont, but i would like to get a high end system (or decently high end system) for now, and then just do minor upgrades later on (add ram maybe, and maybe a second GPU) rather than just putting money into each time i cant play a game, i took that route once and while it was probably cheaper, it was also a big of a hassle (as i couldnt really predict exactally when i *needed* to upgrade)

    also im not huge into the newest FPS's so most likely ill be playing games like AoE4 or whatever...

    Smilingoat on
    whos havin butt-seks
  • blincolnblincoln Registered User
    edited November 2006
    The GeForce 4 was released in 2003. Even 3 years later, you can't play games like Oblivion with one, unless maybe you use third-party hacks to lower the graphic quality down to ridiculously low levels.

    I used to buy the $300+ cards (GF3 and GF4 both right after release) thinking they would be more future-proof, but they're not. The only reason to get them is if you want to play *today's* games at the highest settings.

    I do think it's good to get decent components - the rest of your system sounds like what I would do right now if I were building one.

    blincoln on
    Legacy of Kain: The Lost Worlds
    http://www.thelostworlds.net/
  • ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS
    edited November 2006
    blincoln wrote:
    The GeForce 4 was released in 2003. Even 3 years later, you can't play games like Oblivion with one, unless maybe you use third-party hacks to lower the graphic quality down to ridiculously low levels.

    I'm pretty sure games like Oblivion and Everquest 2 are exceptions rather than the norm.

    ege02 on
    Medopine wrote: »
    Fuck that woman going "oh god oh no!!"

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  • NinjaGnatNinjaGnat Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Well, if you're buying a graphics card, just remember that everything that comes out later will be better, but that doesn't actually make your card any worse. If you like the visual quality/price value of a card, even if you end up turning a few options down in future games its still rendering just as nicely as it was when you got it.

    NinjaGnat on
  • haroOharoO Registered User
    edited December 2006
    Wow... So, can you guys answer his question about "cars" or not? Should he get a dual setup of DX9 cards or get the 8800 today and upgrade to dual later.

    I think it's a very interesting topic, I was thinking about this yesterday. So I'd like to get a confirmation also.

    haroO on


    haha made you look
  • blincolnblincoln Registered User
    edited December 2006
    ege02 wrote:
    I'm pretty sure games like Oblivion and Everquest 2 are exceptions rather than the norm.

    Yes, but Oblivion doesn't even play well on a GF5. Can most current games play properly on a 4? I am not a huge PC gamer anymore, so the only two recent ones I have are Oblivion and TR:Legend.

    blincoln on
    Legacy of Kain: The Lost Worlds
    http://www.thelostworlds.net/
  • stigweardstigweard Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    haroO wrote:
    Wow... So, can you guys answer his question about "cars" or not? Should he get a dual setup of DX9 cards or get the 8800 today and upgrade to dual later.

    I think it's a very interesting topic, I was thinking about this yesterday. So I'd like to get a confirmation also.

    The 8800gtx is a monster physically. You might need to buy a deeper case just to fit it in. I'm pretty sure the 8800gtx stomps all over every sli setup out there right now so if you want absolute pure performance and can afford the cash, and have a large enough case then go for it. Personally, if I had to have a dx10 card right now, I'd just get the gts and overclock it. It isn't as feature rich but you can get it running damn near as fast as the gtx without even changing the stock coolilng. If you can't afford it, you probably can't afford a fast sli setup either, so you might as well just get a single card like a 7900gt or x1900pro.

    stigweard on
  • vonPoonBurGervonPoonBurGer Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    haroO wrote:
    Wow... So, can you guys answer his question about "cars" or not? Should he get a dual setup of DX9 cards or get the 8800 today and upgrade to dual later.

    I think it's a very interesting topic, I was thinking about this yesterday. So I'd like to get a confirmation also.
    It is a good question, and the problem is that there's no clear answer. My inclination would be to go with a cheaper DX9 solution now, and bank the saved money for a future DX10 card. DX10, while it looks great on paper, has a few things stacked against it market-wise.

    First, Microsoft has very clearly stated that DX10 support will not be available outside of Vista. I don't know about anyone else here, but I don't touch a new Microsoft OS for at least the first year after release. A DX10 card would be useless to me for the intermediate future, because my OS won't support DX10 for quite some time. The OP may be more willing to live on the bleeding edge, but that doesn't really matter from a market perspective, because I think the majority of game consumers will also be slow to upgrade.

    The second thing to consider is that there are as yet no DX10 games, and there won't be for at least a little while. Even once DX10 games come out, you can bet your bottom dollar that they will include a DX9 render path. That's going to be the case for quite some time to come. Game companies aren't going be willing to drop DX9 until the majority of their target market supports DX10, and I don't think that's going to happen for two years at least. I don't even think we'll see a killer DX10 title until at least a year after Vista releases. Look at the Xbox 360. It came out a year ago, and we're only now starting to see the kind of titles that make people say "Ok, now this is next-gen". I expect a similar sort of lead time before we start seeing DX10 titles that make gamers say "Ok, I need to upgrade and get me some of that".

    Based on all of that, my feeling is that it's simply too early to be buying a DX10 part. I think you'd get more bang for the buck with a single DX9 card. Keep the money you save, wait for the second generation DX10 parts to come out a year from now, sell the DX9 card (which should still have decent resale value at that point), and then go balls to wall for a DX10 card.

    vonPoonBurGer on
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  • DeusfauxDeusfaux Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    if I were buying a new card today, I would get the 7950 GX2, or X1950XTX

    re: dx10, wait and see ATi's offereing, then sell card and purchase new one accordingly

    Deusfaux on
  • CatcherCatcher Registered User
    edited December 2006
    First of all no gamer should wait 4 years to upgrade their most essential tool. I started out gaming in 2003 with the Radeon 9800 Pro and that lasted me through the end of 2005, while I upgraded to my current X1800XT. If you like playing the latest games with the settings turned up, I'd suggest going about buying a new card every two to two and half years, same with the processor and same with RAM.

    Catcher on
    When the Journeyman testifies a fateless man believes. He can send you into paradise or bring you to your knees.
  • ClipseClipse Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    blincoln wrote:
    The GeForce 4 was released in 2003. Even 3 years later, you can't play games like Oblivion with one, unless maybe you use third-party hacks to lower the graphic quality down to ridiculously low levels.
    The GeForce 4 was released in early (February) 2002. That puts us close to 5 years since the release.

    Building a system to "last" (play most/all games) for 4 years is possible, but by the end of that stretch it will likely be worse than a recent low end system. It would be smarter to build a decent computer now, and another in 2 years. As far as ATI's DX10 card, the expected release date is January 2006, but if that goes like some of ATI's other recent launches it will "come out" in January, start getting reviewed in March, and might be actually available for purchase in July. DX10's improvements over DX9 are somewhat behind-the-scenes (the prime example being Unified Shader Architecture), but there is also the addition of geometry shaders, which will likely result in some nice visuals (see videos of nVidia's Geforce 8 demos). Lastly, don't get SLI. Unless you're building an absolute top-of-the-line money-is-no-object system, SLI is not a good idea. For the price of two previous generation cards in SLI you can get an 8800GTS (or GTX) which will perform as well or better, add DX10 support, use less power, and generate less heat and noise.

    Clipse on
  • Locust76Locust76 Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Nobody's even considered Nvidia's previous track record with new hardware. I'm an Nvidia fanboy, but I'll be goddamned if every single one of their first-run next generation boards didn't suck. Think about it.

    The Geforce 4 series was trumped by the not-much-later released Ti series. The Geforce FX series was just a trainwreck until they got the architecture right with the 5950-esque series, the Geforce 6 series was missing features (video encoder, for example), trumped by the later "ultra versions" and had mediocre (for it's overall power) PS 3.0 performance. Regarding SLI: If you run multiple monitors, SLI will not work simultaneously with a dual-monitor setup. You have to go into the video control panel to enable/disable multimonitor and SLI.

    Point of the story is: If you're wanting to run dual monitor and have room to upgrade, a single card (with single gpu) is the way to go. That being said, history has shown that first-run hardware is never the way to go, especially when it introduces radical new architectural changes.

    I bet that DX10 support is going to be like Doom3 when it was originally designed for the Geforce 3. It will take so long that by the time DX10 support finally comes into full effect, the current DX10 cards will be miserably obsolete.

    Unless you have a burning itch to upgrade, I recommend waiting until the more refined and bug-fixed 8850s or 8900 series cards come out, or wait until you've actually got your hands on a real DX10 game to make the switch. Otherwise you'll just be beta testing Nvidia's card for them.

    Locust76 on
  • vonPoonBurGervonPoonBurGer Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Locust76 wrote:
    Nobody's even considered Nvidia's previous track record with new hardware. I'm an Nvidia fanboy, but I'll be goddamned if every single one of their first-run next generation boards didn't suck. Think about it.
    Limed for troof. In every Nvidia product generation, they seem to release one version of a part, then six months later they release almost the same part with it's "pipes cleaned", as it were. In almost all cases, you're better off waiting the six months for the pipe-cleaned and bug-fixed version of the product.

    vonPoonBurGer on
    Xbox Live:vonPoon | PSN: vonPoon | Steam: vonPoonBurGer
  • haroOharoO Registered User
    edited December 2006
    I like where this thread has been and where it is going.

    Please continue.

    haroO on


    haha made you look
  • CatcherCatcher Registered User
    edited December 2006
    haroO wrote:
    I like where this thread has been and where it is going.

    Please continue.

    Tell me solider, where has this thread been and where is it going?

    Catcher on
    When the Journeyman testifies a fateless man believes. He can send you into paradise or bring you to your knees.
  • robaalrobaal Registered User
    edited December 2006
    More mainstream DX10 cards will probably be available later than January - around spring, so march-april.

    The 8800 cards are very expensive ($450 for the GTS, $650 for the GTX) and although they do seem to perform much better than the previous generation there are no competing products, so it's possible that ATI will offer better value, or at least force the 8800 prices down.


    When upgrading to an SLI setup you don't get new features that new cards might offer and often it isn't much cheaper than just getting a single new card.


    There's also a risk that games written only for DX10 will just not work on DX9 hardware. Its also supposed to run "8 times faster", or so MS claims.
    AoE, which you mention, in its 3rd installment actually uses SM3.0 a lot, which was sort-of new at time of its release; it runs like crap on my X850XT PE, which supports only SM2.0 but still offers good performance in other games.

    robaal on
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    At night, the ice weasels come."

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