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A Discussion about Achievements (conceptual)
Lucascraft
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Maybe this all comes down to semantics for me, and maybe its just a bit of OCD or anal retentiveness or perhaps I'm an elitist. But the idea of Achievements really bothers me. I don't have a problem with a Gamerscore, nor do I have a problem with the Trophies of the PS3.
But merely the word "Achievement" bugs me in the way it is used and how they are awarded.
In a typical XBox 360 game, perhaps 60% of that game's total achievements will come purely from completing the story mode of the game. I'm here to say, that beating level 1-1 of any game is not an achievement. Unless that game is so fucking hard that beating level 1 truly is an accomplishment. Like many of the old NES games.
Furthermore, the other 40% tend to be broken down into a mix of multiplayer achievements and assorted odds and ends.
But racking up a whole bunch of achievements in a game doesn't make you a good player at that game. In fact, the things that are truly "achievements" are rarely trackable because they are spontaneous and/or require an incredible amount of skill and time to accomplish. Other achievements are rewarded for things that are entirely dumb luck. Or things that will just naturally happen over the course of playing a game.
Is the modern gamer so insecure and self-conscious that they need to be given positive reinforcement for every minute thing they do?
But merely the word "Achievement" bugs me in the way it is used and how they are awarded.
In a typical XBox 360 game, perhaps 60% of that game's total achievements will come purely from completing the story mode of the game. I'm here to say, that beating level 1-1 of any game is not an achievement. Unless that game is so fucking hard that beating level 1 truly is an accomplishment. Like many of the old NES games.
Furthermore, the other 40% tend to be broken down into a mix of multiplayer achievements and assorted odds and ends.
But racking up a whole bunch of achievements in a game doesn't make you a good player at that game. In fact, the things that are truly "achievements" are rarely trackable because they are spontaneous and/or require an incredible amount of skill and time to accomplish. Other achievements are rewarded for things that are entirely dumb luck. Or things that will just naturally happen over the course of playing a game.
Is the modern gamer so insecure and self-conscious that they need to be given positive reinforcement for every minute thing they do?
Lucascraft on
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They don't mean anything, nor do they provide any advancement over other gamers. In many cases they encourage gamers to play the game or perform actions they otherwise normally would not.
And yes, like I said, I think it really boils down to semantics for me. I don't like the word achievement, because doing those things is not an achievement.
But my point is that most of the things that they award achievement points for are not cool or worthy of bragging about.
"Hey guys, I got 10 points for beating level 1-1. I'm so awesome."
Here is something truly brag-worthy:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=san+andreas+crashes&aq=f
They tend to extend playtime and help a game keeps it's value. You're more likely to hang on to a game for the DLC with added achievement points isntead of selling it back to GameStop.
Could not agree more with this. There a bunch of games I've played more because of achievements that I wouldn't have played as much without them.
I look through the list of achievements and see something like: beat a certain level in a certain amount of time or, beat the game without dying, and I say to myself "Hey, that sounds like it would be really fun to try!"
I could brag if I made gta crash videos?
My favorite achievement ever comes from Penny Arcade Adventures: On the Rainslick Precipice of Darkness Ep. 2; the "Reluctant Hero" achievement.
Basically, by telling Tycho and Gabe to stuff it a bunch of times at the very beginning of the story, you get a lot of funny dialogue you otherwise wouldn't.
The first playthrough I did, I was all excited, like, "YES I WILL BASH IN HOBOS WITH MY GARDEN TOOLS FOR YOU GUYS AGAIN!"
Doing it this way (for an achievement!) made the game a bit funnier.
That's a good example of a game doing it RIGHT... like Sheep's quote up there, by doing something other than what you would do, you get some piece of the game you wouldn't see otherwise.
Isn't it the same on the Ps3, though, essentially trophies for things you'd never put in a trophy cabinet? I mean, the wording is dumb, but the concept is fine, even though it seems DLC adds achievements, and for the mildly OCD that could be bad. But still, decent concept, and I think achievement is a better term than trophy. Then again, I don't own a ps3, so i'm pretty biased in that regard. The whole point is, rewarding people for doing something that really isn't all that rewarding just makes them feel better. I think that's fine. Considering the media makes people more insecure and self-concious by the day (as if anyone really follows along anymore) I think we need all the feel-good substititues we can get.
I'll start getting scared when my 360 prescribes me feel-good medication because I don't have enough gamerpoints, though.
But that's not really an accomplishment, just a lucky thing that happened.
I'd brag about beating stuff that is really hard.
If I were the cheeky type, I'd suggest that you were the insecure and self-conscious one, since you're so frustrated over people being rewarded for things you don't feel are reward-worthy.
It really is a semantics thing, though I think the PS3 analog of "Trophies" is possibly even worse. The term is used because it sounds a lot sexier than "Points of Interest," which is what I typically think of a list of Achievements. I'll glance through the list of a game that I'm playing and see if there are any that catch my eye or sound cool (like pretty much anything from Geometry Wars 2), but I don't really let it rule how I decide to play the game.
The whole concept of a Gamerscore and individual point values is ludicrous, but hey, people like adding numbers. Hell, I kind of like that my Gamerscore now ends in a "1" because of an uneven point value Achievement from The Dishwasher, if only because I've read about dozens of OCD gamers being irritated that their Gamerscores don't end in round numbers.
PSN: TheScrublet
Yeah, I mentioned that too. Twice. But they hand out achievements for doing all sorts of shit that's not even worth mentioning.
Sure, some of the "odds and ends" achievements aren't bad. I don't have a problem with those. The ones I have a problem with are the ones for doing things that you would normally do anyway. Such as completing levels.
Doing levels really fast. That's ok. That might take some practice. Or doing levels using only a specific weapon or item. Or playing a FPS and only using the starter gun the whole way through. Or in Zelda, the 3 heart challenge is always a good one.
I guess my point is simply that I think if they are going to hand out points for doing any old thing, they should not be called Achievements. Because, as stated before, unless level 1-1 in a particular game is fucking hard as hell, beating the first level is not an accomplishment, and not really worthy of recognition.
Mass Effect did achievements well in that it actually gave you in-game benefits like increased exp gain, or gain more shields etc.
Xbox Live: Kunohara
Like "beat the game on the hardest difficulty without taking any damage."
I think you need to look at the disparity of reward for them though. They hand them out for "any old thing" but from the PS3 side I'll say bronze trophies become worthless real damn fast. In fact, it doesn't take too long before silver trophies lose a bit of their significance. The difference in reward between the silver and gold trophies is significant to say the least. And most of the platinum trophies are impossible without a huge time committment (and lately, a significant enough player base for the multiplayer trophies).
PSN: TheScrublet
The proceeding mass whining about it, presumably. IT'S TOO HARD CRY CRY WE NEED SOME EASIER ONES CRY CRY I NEED THESE POINTS FOR MY GAMERSCORE etcetc
I do say the vast majority of the achievements should either be funny, encourage unique gameplay, or both.
Bioshock's Irony achievement was hilarious.
Almost forgot to comment on this...YES. Keep in mind that thanks to the Halos, shooters have stopped using health anymore...as long as you don't get shot too much at one time, you live! And then we have Bioshock, where even if you die there's no real punishment because you instantly respawn to continue attacking the half-dead enemy that killed you. Modern mainstream gamers aren't as driven anymore.
PSN: TheScrublet
And getting some of them actually got you stuff! Awesome.
That's the best. I love achievements by themselves, but they're even better when they unlock you things too, like with TF2, for example.
Haha, my friend has being trying to rent the game cause he knows how easy it is to get 1000 in it. The game is constantly rented out. It has been like that for months now. Guess other people have the same idea.
Xbox Live: Kunohara
Man, I must be playing the wrong games, because most of the games I have, I can barely get 100-300 gs from playing through the game. Or I suck, which is more likely.
I will say, though, that tying up a large percentage of achievements into online multiplayer is a bit bunk, in my opinion.
That said, I've turned into a huge glutton for trophies.
sigh
Limed so everyone will read and be as confused as I am.
I can understand WoW achievements, where you actually get something you can use, but that does not confer an advantage. But there's just no substance at all to the Xbox 360 achievements(I'm not attributing any substance to trophies that I only see for a second on the dashboard).
Mass Effect achievements grant you extra things on following playthroughs: new items in the store, faster biotic cooldowns, more damage, more xp, the ability to give skills to classes that would not have them.
And really this whole thing just reeks of opinion.
3DS: 1650-8480-6786
Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705
This is my opinion as well.
On the other hand, a growing trend has started where the merits of a "complete" game is being bundled along whether the game can supply them with imaginary bragging credit. Take for example upcoming ps3 games. Legions upon legions of gamers across forums complain about older ps3 games to receive updates for trophy lists, since the lists didn't become implemented until after its launch. Other times when games are announced some of the first replys are "will it have trophies?" and find an upcoming game a waste of money when they don't have the system. And I'm beginning to wonder if the next step in gaming, (whatever it is) will have people satisfied and convinced to fulfill a goal based checklist than play a game for leisurely imaginative exploration.
There's a bunch of other stuff I want to say like how TF2 does acheivements right, immersability broken, etc. but I'll save it for when this thread moves in those directions.
But I'll say this, I didn't need incentive to try and jump over the mario flagpole and I didn't have a pop up telling me I found a warp zone, nor did I need a list to tell me how to run across the top bricks in world 1-2.
Just play your games again people. Scores of teams spend time to make great games for you to find your own ways to play!
Saying that, completing a game should net you an achievement at least; there are a lot of people out there who play games yet don't finish them for whatever reason...
If you have multiplayer achievements don't make them ridiculously impossible - Burnout Revenge I'm looking at you... become the #1 ranked player in the world, seriously?
There need to be more achievements that actually reward outside of the box thinking during gameplay, make them secret if you have to so people don't see what they have to do by reading the description (Not that it'll stop people from looking it up in guides, but it helps)
Give in-game bonuses for getting certain achievements... doesn't have to be an uber weapon, people go after cosmetic bonuses just as much as the rest.
If you do have some really hard achievements to get, don't have them give out a huge amount of gamerscore. 5-10 GS is more than enough, and if I had my way a lot of those would be 0GS achievements. That way you can brag that you pulled off :insert insane requirement here: while still throwing a bone to the whiners who say they can't get 1000/1000 off of a game.
Just my 2GS.
Steam: Feriluce
Battle.net: Feriluce#1995
I did this without having any idea it was an actual Achievement, then had to pause the game I was laughing so hard