I think a good writer could work around it. And I do feel that Joss is a good writer.
2. When your TV show deals with high school/college-aged characters, it makes sense that the majority of the relationships those characters are having don't end up working out.
How many high school/college romances do you know end up with people dying?
Well you're stretching things here, Xander/Anya were already long over by the time she died. Infact the only relationships that were actually ended by death were Fred/Wesley and Tara/Willow
edit: and Wash/Zoe I guess, who up until then were basically the perfect couple
Pain and suffering is more interesting than fluffy happy days, I guess. The closest thing I can think of to a Joss Whedon happy relationship ending is in Firefly...
Simon and Kaylee. But then, they had just gotten together at the end of Serenity, so undoubtedly somebody was due to die or break up before too long if the story had continued from there.
Edit: Oh, and yes, I thought that too when I first read the thread title. Damn my secondhand fanfiction knowledge. I think the term you're looking for is "crossover fic".
Crossover would only work if they were in either the Buffy or the BSG universes, sadly.
Slash is probably as good a term as any, disregarding its origins as being between two same-sex characters. Fairly sure my sister uses it for any combination that's not canon, and tvtropes claims that is a valid, if rare, use of the term.
'Ship-fic' is probably the best term. 'Ship' being (horribly) short for 'relationship'.
also, you people made me google slash-fic. I feel dirty
I think a good writer could work around it. And I do feel that Joss is a good writer.
2. When your TV show deals with high school/college-aged characters, it makes sense that the majority of the relationships those characters are having don't end up working out.
How many high school/college romances do you know end up with people dying?
Well you're stretching things here, Xander/Anya were already long over by the time she died. Infact the only relationships that were actually ended by death were Fred/Wesley and Tara/Willow
edit: and Wash/Zoe I guess, who up until then were basically the perfect couple
Did we really want a happy couple though? Personally, I fear the format might have gone a bit bland without the constant mini dramas and disasters. Plus, as stated above, youth relations are hard to maintain as they tend to be repetetive and going no where.
also, re: the thread title - yeah, slashfic used to only apply to gay couples. common usage has adopted to mean any non-canon couple in recent years. at any rate, it sounds better than "non-canon crossover erotic fanfic"
People could guess Penny's fate because it was a story about a super villain. Happily ever after doesn't even register on the plausible resolution map.
This line of argument regarding Dr. Horrible has always seemed a little twee to me. Like a panacea to cover up how poorly the ending and shift in tone was handled. Yes, it's a story about a supervillain. But it's a goofy, self-aware, parody story about a supervillain. That turns into Joss 101 in the last 5 minutes. It's not a deep look into the insights and mindsets of supervillains, nor is it commenting on supervillains as a whole. And if it is, that commentary is pretty superficial and lightweight. And the tone of the piece (it's a fuckin comedy-musical for christ's sake) helps support that. Using the term "plausible" regarding something as goofy as Dr. Horrible seems disingenuous, really.
To me, I think where it rubs me wrong, aside from his overreliance on it, is that it seems to appeal to the kind of people who regard Empire Strikes Back as a great movie simply because it's "The Dark One." Who like Transformers: The Movie because Ironhide gets his head blown off. Who wanted The Dark Knight to be rated R. It's an artificially-induced adult sensibility laid over kidstuff. Whedon tiptoes along that line of justifying its use and anvil smashing the fuck out if it.
I understand that thematically, exploring "The child exists to replace the parent" as a theme is dramatically compelling, and that's the theme Whedon is providing variations on: The characters cannot become what they need to be, cannot achieve what they need to achieve, without being propelled there by a great loss, typically of someone they love, or someone they respect. Instead of making it a mentor or a parent (Obi-Wan, Pa Kent) Whedon makes it a boyfriend or a girlfriend. But at this point, he's almost venturing into AC/DC territory: He's writing the same fucking song over and over again when it comes to this thematic exploration, and it's starting to grate.
It's one of the things I like about Dollhouse, despite it's unfocused nature and it's unfortunate centering on Dushku instead of Penikett/Laurie - That particular theme is almost non-existent.
Except your premise is predicated on the idea that all deaths/breakups in Whedon shows are the same and for the same reason.
Angel's evilness/deadness, for instance, is simply a continuation of Buffy's overall idea, to use the supernatural to mimic the problems of normal, everyday teenagers growing up. In this case, you sleep with a guy and he changes.
And there's others with varying purposes for the story. The overall idea, though, is that bad shit happens to your characters, because bad things is what makes drama.
When executives give you story notes at this point in your career, do you ever feel like saying, "I'm Joss Whedon, dude. Trust me, it'll all make sense before you know it."
You know, it is tougher, particularly this year because I had a 45-minute note session that was followed by an executive telling me how much he loved "Dr. Horrible" [Whedon's online musical parody] which was obviously made without the benefit of network notes. And then I had "Cabin in the Woods" greenlit at MGM with no notes, which was rare for a movie, so I've been in this wonderful rarified position. But, having said that, I also, always, have to go in there knowing that their priorities may not be mine but their perspective is valid. If they know what they're doing, and I think these guys do, they're worth listening to. And even somebody who doesn't necessarily get what you're doing might be the one to say, "Hey, look, the emperor's naked."
Am I correct that you're going to have a nude emperor in episode eight?
Yes. I mean, I realize every show's doing it, but still.
[Laughs] So how far of an arc have you planned for the series already?
When I pitched it, I gave them a six-year plan with a lot of leeway for change. But what I really mapped out was the first 13, and even though we start in a different place than I had originally intended, we end up exactly where I'd intended in the 12th episode. Then, in the 13th episode, things just get stranger. There's some twisted shit coming.
Can I just say again how much I'm hoping this show gets renewed?
For instance, is simply a continuation of Buffy's overall idea, to use the supernatural to mimic the problems of normal, everyday teenagers growing up. In this case, you sleep with a guy and he changes.
The "Supernatural version of high school events" schtick was dropped by the end of Season 1, really.
Sure, like every episode in Season 1 followed that, but as it went on, Buffy was basically just more sci-fi/fantasy.
For instance, is simply a continuation of Buffy's overall idea, to use the supernatural to mimic the problems of normal, everyday teenagers growing up. In this case, you sleep with a guy and he changes.
The "Supernatural version of high school events" schtick was dropped by the end of Season 1, really.
Sure, like every episode in Season 1 followed that, but as it went on, Buffy was basically just more sci-fi/fantasy.
Not at all. In fact, it continues well into Season 4 and beyond.
I can pull out a list of episodes and start listing them off for fucks sake.
When executives give you story notes at this point in your career, do you ever feel like saying, "I'm Joss Whedon, dude. Trust me, it'll all make sense before you know it."
You know, it is tougher, particularly this year because I had a 45-minute note session that was followed by an executive telling me how much he loved "Dr. Horrible" [Whedon's online musical parody] which was obviously made without the benefit of network notes. And then I had "Cabin in the Woods" greenlit at MGM with no notes, which was rare for a movie, so I've been in this wonderful rarified position. But, having said that, I also, always, have to go in there knowing that their priorities may not be mine but their perspective is valid. If they know what they're doing, and I think these guys do, they're worth listening to. And even somebody who doesn't necessarily get what you're doing might be the one to say, "Hey, look, the emperor's naked."
Am I correct that you're going to have a nude emperor in episode eight?
Yes. I mean, I realize every show's doing it, but still.
[Laughs] So how far of an arc have you planned for the series already?
When I pitched it, I gave them a six-year plan with a lot of leeway for change. But what I really mapped out was the first 13, and even though we start in a different place than I had originally intended, we end up exactly where I'd intended in the 12th episode. Then, in the 13th episode, things just get stranger. There's some twisted shit coming.
Can I just say again how much I'm hoping this show gets renewed?
QFT
I am unsure whether to read 13 as truly being part of the storyline or not. I guess it will just be seen as a one off and then season 2 will pick up from 12
For instance, is simply a continuation of Buffy's overall idea, to use the supernatural to mimic the problems of normal, everyday teenagers growing up. In this case, you sleep with a guy and he changes.
The "Supernatural version of high school events" schtick was dropped by the end of Season 1, really.
Sure, like every episode in Season 1 followed that, but as it went on, Buffy was basically just more sci-fi/fantasy.
Not at all. In fact, it continues well into Season 4 and beyond.
I can pull out a list of episodes and start listing them off for fucks sake.
Hm... Sure. But I'm asking purely for academic purposes.
Maybe I just didn't pay attention or notice as much afterward. But Season 1 was so blatant.
For instance, is simply a continuation of Buffy's overall idea, to use the supernatural to mimic the problems of normal, everyday teenagers growing up. In this case, you sleep with a guy and he changes.
The "Supernatural version of high school events" schtick was dropped by the end of Season 1, really.
Sure, like every episode in Season 1 followed that, but as it went on, Buffy was basically just more sci-fi/fantasy.
Not at all. In fact, it continues well into Season 4 and beyond.
I can pull out a list of episodes and start listing them off for fucks sake.
Hm... Sure. But I'm asking purely for academic purposes.
Maybe I just didn't pay attention or notice as much afterward. But Season 1 was so blatant.
Just at first glance:
The entire Angel arc in S2
Go Fish => Steroid Use in Sports (High School Sports specifically) and the whole culture around "Gotta win!"
Beauty and the Beasts => Abusive boyfriends
Living Conditions => Bad Roomates
Beer Bad => Beer Bad (A terrible episode, but still)
And so on. These are just the super super obvious ones.
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David_TA fashion yes-man is no good to me.Copenhagen, DenmarkRegistered Userregular
I understand that thematically, exploring "The child exists to replace the parent" as a theme is dramatically compelling, and that's the theme Whedon is providing variations on: The characters cannot become what they need to be, cannot achieve what they need to achieve, without being propelled there by a great loss, typically of someone they love, or someone they respect. Instead of making it a mentor or a parent (Obi-Wan, Pa Kent) Whedon makes it a boyfriend or a girlfriend.
I recommend "Fray". An entire series of kicks in the balls Whedon-style but not once does a love interest show its face.
People could guess Penny's fate because it was a story about a super villain. Happily ever after doesn't even register on the plausible resolution map.
This line of argument regarding Dr. Horrible has always seemed a little twee to me. Like a panacea to cover up how poorly the ending and shift in tone was handled. Yes, it's a story about a supervillain. But it's a goofy, self-aware, parody story about a supervillain. That turns into Joss 101 in the last 5 minutes. It's not a deep look into the insights and mindsets of supervillains, nor is it commenting on supervillains as a whole. And if it is, that commentary is pretty superficial and lightweight. And the tone of the piece (it's a fuckin comedy-musical for christ's sake) helps support that. Using the term "plausible" regarding something as goofy as Dr. Horrible seems disingenuous, really.
Alright, step up then. Tell me how you'd have ended Dr Horrible.
I understand that thematically, exploring "The child exists to replace the parent" as a theme is dramatically compelling, and that's the theme Whedon is providing variations on: The characters cannot become what they need to be, cannot achieve what they need to achieve, without being propelled there by a great loss, typically of someone they love, or someone they respect. Instead of making it a mentor or a parent (Obi-Wan, Pa Kent) Whedon makes it a boyfriend or a girlfriend.
I recommend "Fray". An entire series of kicks in the balls Whedon-style but not once does a love interest show its face.
And what kicks they are...
Loo!
A love interest shows its face.
Unfortunately, it happens to be her creepy brother lusting after her.
Alright, step up then. Tell me how you'd have ended Dr Horrible.
Fan-fiction as criticism is shitty criticism. That's not stepping up, it's mental masturbation. I don't write fan-fiction, or jerk off for others on demand.
Besides, that line of thought basically negates any criticism at all. Otherwise movie critics would have to be Spielberg before they started their first sentence. Restaurant reviewers would have to be Paul Prudhomme before sitting at a table. Video game reviewers would have to be Hideo Kojima before they hit the power button. That's the only way you could get around "I'd like to see YOU do better" as a response.
Alright, step up then. Tell me how you'd have ended Dr Horrible.
Fan-fiction as criticism is shitty criticism. That's not stepping up, it's mental masturbation. I don't write fan-fiction, or jerk off for others on demand.
Besides, that line of thought basically negates any criticism at all. Otherwise movie critics would have to be Spielberg before they started their first sentence. Restaurant reviewers would have to be Paul Prudhomme before sitting at a table. Video game reviewers would have to be Hideo Kojima before they hit the power button. That's the only way you could get around "I'd like to see YOU do better" as a response.
Wow, quite a fancy copout right there. Really, did your "Nuh-uh!" really need to be so verbose?
Fair criticisms do offer solutions.
"Why didn't the characters do this?"
Etc.
Penny's death wasn't really that out of place. The whole "show/movie" was moving slowly towards that "point of no return" where his greed was going to affect him. I don't see what so wrong with it.
Alright, step up then. Tell me how you'd have ended Dr Horrible.
Fan-fiction as criticism is shitty criticism. That's not stepping up, it's mental masturbation. I don't write fan-fiction, or jerk off for others on demand.
Besides, that line of thought basically negates any criticism at all. Otherwise movie critics would have to be Spielberg before they started their first sentence. Restaurant reviewers would have to be Paul Prudhomme before sitting at a table. Video game reviewers would have to be Hideo Kojima before they hit the power button. That's the only way you could get around "I'd like to see YOU do better" as a response.
I'm not asking you to give me a script, I'm saying tell me a general outline or any form of resolution that makes a lick of sense. If the "change in tone" is so obvious then clearly another resolution suggested itself to you.
Fair criticisms *sometimes* offer vague solutions, but the way that was thrown out there was like some dick-measuring YOU WRITE SOMETHING BETTER THEN shit, and that's a pretty unfair reaction to a fair criticism, and puts the onus on me to be a creative persona on the level of Joss Whedon instead of a viewer/audience member/critic. Which is why "YOU WRITE SOMETHING BETTER" is a bullshit response.
The wordy comes because "nuh-uh" is just as equally fuckin bullshit.
To me, the tone of the piece, and the way it looked at supervillains and their motivations (thin, goofy, satirically) didn't need a serious, soul-rending death to lend it a third dimension. Something that light and airy doesn't need big boots of clay sinking it back down to earth. Penny's death read to me like Daffy Duck bleeding out at the end of a Looney Tunes cartoon, and Elmer Fudd slowly fixing a stuffed and mounted duck head to the wall while grimacing in slo-motion.
Did other things spring to mind? No, not really, because I was busy reacting to what was given to me, and going "no...no, that's pretty wrong. That's a pretty big dropped ball." I can dislike something without instantly wanting to re-write it. And it's hard to say what to replace it with, because I can imagine the IDEA of Penny dying sounding good when it was concieved, but just playing awfully when it was shot. So a hypothetical alternate ending isn't worth much, analytically. it shifts the focus from the episode itself to judging the commenters, which is all of one or two steps away from the discussion circling the drain.
The problem is that when most people first watch the show, they quickly assume that it's a comedy, and so they disregard all the hints that things are not going to end well (e.g. Bad Horse's insistence that someone is going to die, the opening and ending songs to Act II ). As a result, the tragic ending comes as a significant surprise, and seems to be completey at odds with what came before it.
But when you go back and rewatch the show, this time as a tragedy instead of a comedy, you pick up on all that groundwork and foreshadowing they put in, and it makes perfect sense.
The problem is that when most people first watch the show, they quickly assume that it's a comedy, and so they disregard all the hints that things are not going to end well (e.g. Bad Horse's insistence that someone is going to die, the opening and ending songs to Act II ). As a result, the tragic ending comes as a significant surprise, and seems to be completey at odds with what came before it.
But when you go back and rewatch the show, this time as a tragedy instead of a comedy, you pick up on all that groundwork and foreshadowing they put in, and it makes perfect sense.
But it IS a comedy. It's not a tragedy. It's not a problem for someone to "assume" they're watching a comedy--because it IS one. The last 5 minutes are tragic, yes. That doesn't negate the preceding. It's a musical comedy. The foreshadowing was being done with the same tongue-in-cheek tone the rest of the show was being performed in.
Another reason for my disappointment was precisely because it was playing those "something BAD is coming" notes, and playing them so blatantly (Especially for Joss) in the same comedic tone, that when it turned out they weren't being used to subvert the narrative in the same way the whole show was subverting the tropes of superhero stories? It was a waste.
All my griping aside, I do hope he gets back to that sort of storytelling more, because if the web is going to become a viable alternative to broadcast television, Whedon's gonna be a key component there. If not THE key component.
It's not a comedy. It's not a tragedy. It's something that combines aspects of both. If only there was a phrase for such a thing... Oh, I got it. It's a comic tragedy.
That humor is present in the narrative does not make it a comedy. Not in the comedy/tragedy sense.
That's splitting some fine, super-fine, the finest of motherfucking hairs, there. Humor and music are driving the entire endeavor. It's a good comedy with a shit tragedy glued onto the end of it to add artificial heft to something with all the weight of a paper fuckin airplane.
Since we're just gonna bat this tennisball back and forth indefinitely at this point: Dollhouse - joining the ranks of those who feel bad that (plot spoiler, just in case those reading haven't caught up)
Dominic got attic'd. I didn't like the character until he got outed, and then, his little fatalistic discussion with Echo in the truck, I began to hope he somehow could weasel his way out of it. But no.
The problem is that when most people first watch the show, they quickly assume that it's a comedy, and so they disregard all the hints that things are not going to end well (e.g. Bad Horse's insistence that someone is going to die, the opening and ending songs to Act II ). As a result, the tragic ending comes as a significant surprise, and seems to be completey at odds with what came before it.
But when you go back and rewatch the show, this time as a tragedy instead of a comedy, you pick up on all that groundwork and foreshadowing they put in, and it makes perfect sense.
Thank you.
Don't plan the plan if you can't follow through.
I love that line. I didn't notice it for a while, but there's an even bigger hint later on in that same song:
"The only doom that's looming is you loving me to death."
It's not exactly what happens, but you when consider it against Penny's last words...
We can ignore some parts of reality if it supports our preconceived notions.
Oh jesus, it's not a fuckin religion. It's an opinion on a piece of filmed entertainment. Save the "ignored reality" arguments for something actually relevant.
See, for me, the "Sad" parts weren't SAD. They were tongue-in-cheek/goofy at best. If you have to cast me as a self-deluding weirdo purposefully lying to a bunch of strangers on the internet in order to invalidate my own opinion, whatever, but that's pretty fuckin silly. Disagreeing with me is perfectly fine, you don't have to turn me into an insane crazy person to write me off.
It's not a comedy. It's not a tragedy. It's something that combines aspects of both. If only there was a phrase for such a thing... Oh, I got it. It's a comic tragedy.
The Most Lamentable Comedy And Most Cruel Death of Doctor Horrible And Penny, eh?
Why is there Doctor Horrible dripping out of my Dollhouse thread?
As for the debate about the ending of Dr. Horrible, I really don't think you paid attention to the show if you think the entire thing is comedy. Go watch the opening song or the closing song to Act II again and tell me that's not foreshadowing. A comedy can be dark, and trying to claim that the tone suddenly shifted at the end is ridiculous. For the ENTIRE show, Billy is slowly turning into Dr. Horrible. The goofy / funny parts are there to emphasize that for Billy, this isn't entirely a serious endeavor; he wants a normal life and he can be a villain on the side. As the show progresses, his character gets darker and darker until Dr. Horrible takes over when Penny dies.
It appears the much-ballyhooed return of Prison Break wasn't as hotly anticipated as Fox had hoped. Despite a hefty amount of promos, the episode was only seen by 3.4 million viewers and earned a meager 1.2 rating among adults 18-49, according to the Hollywood Reporter. That's down 25 percent from what Dollhouse was previously earning in the time period. Break will end its run on Fox with a two-hour series finale on May 15.
Dollhouse's best shot IMO is Fox realizing Friday nights are a death sentence time slot and looking at the better-than-anything-else-they-got ratings for that time slot, good secondary figures (DVR, Hulu, pre-orders), the reduced per-episode cost compared to a new show (which requires a pilot, new sets, and likely a higher cost if its not produced by Fox) and the backlash from canceling it and give it another shot.
It appears the much-ballyhooed return of Prison Break wasn't as hotly anticipated as Fox had hoped. Despite a hefty amount of promos, the episode was only seen by 3.4 million viewers and earned a meager 1.2 rating among adults 18-49, according to the Hollywood Reporter. That's down 25 percent from what Dollhouse was previously earning in the time period. Break will end its run on Fox with a two-hour series finale on May 15.
Dollhouse's best shot IMO is Fox realizing Friday nights are a death sentence time slot and looking at the better-than-anything-else-they-got ratings for that time slot, good secondary figures (DVR, Hulu, pre-orders), the reduced per-episode cost compared to a new show (which requires a pilot, new sets, and likely a higher cost if its not produced by Fox) and the backlash from canceling it and give it another shot.
Seriously. Those factors combined, but mostly Prison Break's performance, give me the best hope for a second season.
We can ignore some parts of reality if it supports our preconceived notions.
Oh jesus, it's not a fuckin religion. It's an opinion on a piece of filmed entertainment. Save the "ignored reality" arguments for something actually relevant.
See, for me, the "Sad" parts weren't SAD. They were tongue-in-cheek/goofy at best. If you have to cast me as a self-deluding weirdo purposefully lying to a bunch of strangers on the internet in order to invalidate my own opinion, whatever, but that's pretty fuckin silly. Disagreeing with me is perfectly fine, you don't have to turn me into an insane crazy person to write me off.
But the crazy is amusing. I'm not trying to be deliberately asinine.
Maybe I was being a little whimsical, but my true point is is that I believe you weren't really paying attention to the myriad of clues that gave Dr. H away as a tragedy.
By the beginning of the second act, I am pointing out, you should have known things could go no where good. He's singing, for christ's sake, specifically about the evil in him on the rise.
This wasn't Meet the Fockers. It was a super-villain musical.
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
edited April 2009
Speaking of Dr. Horrible, is there any legal way I can still find it, free or otherwise? Is a DVD version planned, or anything?
ElJeffe on
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Well you're stretching things here, Xander/Anya were already long over by the time she died. Infact the only relationships that were actually ended by death were Fred/Wesley and Tara/Willow
edit: and Wash/Zoe I guess, who up until then were basically the perfect couple
Xander and Anya I mean.
They were friends again, but they werent in love anymore no.
Crossover would only work if they were in either the Buffy or the BSG universes, sadly.
Slash is probably as good a term as any, disregarding its origins as being between two same-sex characters. Fairly sure my sister uses it for any combination that's not canon, and tvtropes claims that is a valid, if rare, use of the term.
'Ship-fic' is probably the best term. 'Ship' being (horribly) short for 'relationship'.
also, you people made me google slash-fic. I feel dirty
Did we really want a happy couple though? Personally, I fear the format might have gone a bit bland without the constant mini dramas and disasters. Plus, as stated above, youth relations are hard to maintain as they tend to be repetetive and going no where.
well, there's
and as to your 2nd question, here's a Whedon paraphrase:
This line of argument regarding Dr. Horrible has always seemed a little twee to me. Like a panacea to cover up how poorly the ending and shift in tone was handled. Yes, it's a story about a supervillain. But it's a goofy, self-aware, parody story about a supervillain. That turns into Joss 101 in the last 5 minutes. It's not a deep look into the insights and mindsets of supervillains, nor is it commenting on supervillains as a whole. And if it is, that commentary is pretty superficial and lightweight. And the tone of the piece (it's a fuckin comedy-musical for christ's sake) helps support that. Using the term "plausible" regarding something as goofy as Dr. Horrible seems disingenuous, really.
To me, I think where it rubs me wrong, aside from his overreliance on it, is that it seems to appeal to the kind of people who regard Empire Strikes Back as a great movie simply because it's "The Dark One." Who like Transformers: The Movie because Ironhide gets his head blown off. Who wanted The Dark Knight to be rated R. It's an artificially-induced adult sensibility laid over kidstuff. Whedon tiptoes along that line of justifying its use and anvil smashing the fuck out if it.
I understand that thematically, exploring "The child exists to replace the parent" as a theme is dramatically compelling, and that's the theme Whedon is providing variations on: The characters cannot become what they need to be, cannot achieve what they need to achieve, without being propelled there by a great loss, typically of someone they love, or someone they respect. Instead of making it a mentor or a parent (Obi-Wan, Pa Kent) Whedon makes it a boyfriend or a girlfriend. But at this point, he's almost venturing into AC/DC territory: He's writing the same fucking song over and over again when it comes to this thematic exploration, and it's starting to grate.
It's one of the things I like about Dollhouse, despite it's unfocused nature and it's unfortunate centering on Dushku instead of Penikett/Laurie - That particular theme is almost non-existent.
Geek: Remixed - A Decade's worth of ruined pop culture memories
Xbox Live - Fatboy PDX
Angel's evilness/deadness, for instance, is simply a continuation of Buffy's overall idea, to use the supernatural to mimic the problems of normal, everyday teenagers growing up. In this case, you sleep with a guy and he changes.
And there's others with varying purposes for the story. The overall idea, though, is that bad shit happens to your characters, because bad things is what makes drama.
http://www.wizarduniverse.com/041709whedon.html
Can I just say again how much I'm hoping this show gets renewed?
The "Supernatural version of high school events" schtick was dropped by the end of Season 1, really.
Sure, like every episode in Season 1 followed that, but as it went on, Buffy was basically just more sci-fi/fantasy.
Not at all. In fact, it continues well into Season 4 and beyond.
I can pull out a list of episodes and start listing them off for fucks sake.
QFT
Hm... Sure. But I'm asking purely for academic purposes.
Maybe I just didn't pay attention or notice as much afterward. But Season 1 was so blatant.
Just at first glance:
The entire Angel arc in S2
Go Fish => Steroid Use in Sports (High School Sports specifically) and the whole culture around "Gotta win!"
Beauty and the Beasts => Abusive boyfriends
Living Conditions => Bad Roomates
Beer Bad => Beer Bad (A terrible episode, but still)
And so on. These are just the super super obvious ones.
And what kicks they are...
Geek: Remixed - A Decade's worth of ruined pop culture memories
Xbox Live - Fatboy PDX
Alright, step up then. Tell me how you'd have ended Dr Horrible.
A love interest shows its face.
Fan-fiction as criticism is shitty criticism. That's not stepping up, it's mental masturbation. I don't write fan-fiction, or jerk off for others on demand.
Besides, that line of thought basically negates any criticism at all. Otherwise movie critics would have to be Spielberg before they started their first sentence. Restaurant reviewers would have to be Paul Prudhomme before sitting at a table. Video game reviewers would have to be Hideo Kojima before they hit the power button. That's the only way you could get around "I'd like to see YOU do better" as a response.
Geek: Remixed - A Decade's worth of ruined pop culture memories
Xbox Live - Fatboy PDX
Wow, quite a fancy copout right there. Really, did your "Nuh-uh!" really need to be so verbose?
Fair criticisms do offer solutions.
"Why didn't the characters do this?"
Etc.
Penny's death wasn't really that out of place. The whole "show/movie" was moving slowly towards that "point of no return" where his greed was going to affect him. I don't see what so wrong with it.
I'm not asking you to give me a script, I'm saying tell me a general outline or any form of resolution that makes a lick of sense. If the "change in tone" is so obvious then clearly another resolution suggested itself to you.
The wordy comes because "nuh-uh" is just as equally fuckin bullshit.
To me, the tone of the piece, and the way it looked at supervillains and their motivations (thin, goofy, satirically) didn't need a serious, soul-rending death to lend it a third dimension. Something that light and airy doesn't need big boots of clay sinking it back down to earth. Penny's death read to me like Daffy Duck bleeding out at the end of a Looney Tunes cartoon, and Elmer Fudd slowly fixing a stuffed and mounted duck head to the wall while grimacing in slo-motion.
Did other things spring to mind? No, not really, because I was busy reacting to what was given to me, and going "no...no, that's pretty wrong. That's a pretty big dropped ball." I can dislike something without instantly wanting to re-write it. And it's hard to say what to replace it with, because I can imagine the IDEA of Penny dying sounding good when it was concieved, but just playing awfully when it was shot. So a hypothetical alternate ending isn't worth much, analytically. it shifts the focus from the episode itself to judging the commenters, which is all of one or two steps away from the discussion circling the drain.
Geek: Remixed - A Decade's worth of ruined pop culture memories
Xbox Live - Fatboy PDX
Thank you.
Don't plan the plan if you can't follow through.
Another reason for my disappointment was precisely because it was playing those "something BAD is coming" notes, and playing them so blatantly (Especially for Joss) in the same comedic tone, that when it turned out they weren't being used to subvert the narrative in the same way the whole show was subverting the tropes of superhero stories? It was a waste.
All my griping aside, I do hope he gets back to that sort of storytelling more, because if the web is going to become a viable alternative to broadcast television, Whedon's gonna be a key component there. If not THE key component.
Geek: Remixed - A Decade's worth of ruined pop culture memories
Xbox Live - Fatboy PDX
That humor is present in the narrative does not make it a comedy. Not in the comedy/tragedy sense.
That's splitting some fine, super-fine, the finest of motherfucking hairs, there. Humor and music are driving the entire endeavor. It's a good comedy with a shit tragedy glued onto the end of it to add artificial heft to something with all the weight of a paper fuckin airplane.
Since we're just gonna bat this tennisball back and forth indefinitely at this point: Dollhouse - joining the ranks of those who feel bad that (plot spoiler, just in case those reading haven't caught up)
Geek: Remixed - A Decade's worth of ruined pop culture memories
Xbox Live - Fatboy PDX
I love that line. I didn't notice it for a while, but there's an even bigger hint later on in that same song:
It's not exactly what happens, but you when consider it against Penny's last words...
It's clearly not for you.
I guess all those sad parts beforehand don't matter though. Just the funny ones.
We can ignore some parts of reality if it supports our preconceived notions.
Oh jesus, it's not a fuckin religion. It's an opinion on a piece of filmed entertainment. Save the "ignored reality" arguments for something actually relevant.
See, for me, the "Sad" parts weren't SAD. They were tongue-in-cheek/goofy at best. If you have to cast me as a self-deluding weirdo purposefully lying to a bunch of strangers on the internet in order to invalidate my own opinion, whatever, but that's pretty fuckin silly. Disagreeing with me is perfectly fine, you don't have to turn me into an insane crazy person to write me off.
Geek: Remixed - A Decade's worth of ruined pop culture memories
Xbox Live - Fatboy PDX
The Most Lamentable Comedy And Most Cruel Death of Doctor Horrible And Penny, eh?
As for the debate about the ending of Dr. Horrible, I really don't think you paid attention to the show if you think the entire thing is comedy. Go watch the opening song or the closing song to Act II again and tell me that's not foreshadowing. A comedy can be dark, and trying to claim that the tone suddenly shifted at the end is ridiculous. For the ENTIRE show, Billy is slowly turning into Dr. Horrible. The goofy / funny parts are there to emphasize that for Billy, this isn't entirely a serious endeavor; he wants a normal life and he can be a villain on the side. As the show progresses, his character gets darker and darker until Dr. Horrible takes over when Penny dies.
In my opinion, it was the PERFECT ending.
The reason I wanted Prison Break to do badly last Friday was comparisons like these
Dollhouse's best shot IMO is Fox realizing Friday nights are a death sentence time slot and looking at the better-than-anything-else-they-got ratings for that time slot, good secondary figures (DVR, Hulu, pre-orders), the reduced per-episode cost compared to a new show (which requires a pilot, new sets, and likely a higher cost if its not produced by Fox) and the backlash from canceling it and give it another shot.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Seriously. Those factors combined, but mostly Prison Break's performance, give me the best hope for a second season.
But the crazy is amusing. I'm not trying to be deliberately asinine.
Maybe I was being a little whimsical, but my true point is is that I believe you weren't really paying attention to the myriad of clues that gave Dr. H away as a tragedy.
By the beginning of the second act, I am pointing out, you should have known things could go no where good. He's singing, for christ's sake, specifically about the evil in him on the rise.
This wasn't Meet the Fockers. It was a super-villain musical.
Online we've got Hulu.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/28343/dr-horribles-sing-along-blog
And for purchase we have Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Horribles-Sing-Along-Blog-Patrick-Harris/dp/B001M5UDGS/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1240246335&sr=8-1
Hulu had it for the longest time. Maybe they still do?
NintendoID: Nailbunny 3DS: 3909-8796-4685