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Alberta gov't to make evolution classes optional under proposed law.

1356

Posts

  • EndomaticEndomatic Registered User
    edited May 2009
    saint2e wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    Fireflash wrote: »
    No, it's not the same at all.
    Religion : Don't ask questions, just believe what WE tell you to be true.
    Science : Seek the truth, ask questions, have facts to back up your claim.

    There's a big difference between preventing your children from learning how to be a sheep and preventing your kid from learning how to think for himself.

    Again, that's opinion speaking.

    I'll dumb it down for you guys, since the mere mention of religion causes you to turn your brains off (which is strangely ironic):

    You have a kid that goes to a certain school. Certain school is going to teach something (I'm not going to say what) in their curriculum that you are vehemently against. Should you have the right to decide to exclude your child from that class/lesson?

    No. There should be a standardised education that everyone is required to complete. No individual choice of content, there's no other way to handle a massive system of schools. If that standardized system exclusively teaches religion instead of evolution then your society has degraded to the point where you have become Iran, congrats.

    Which was my original example (Iran or a similar type country), that for some reason was very hard for people to understand. So if something "wrong" (and I use that term vaguely on purpose) is being taught to our kids, we should just look the other way because, hey, it's a standardized curriculum, who am I to argue?

    There's a lot of wishy-washiness in this forum with regards to public education. Apparently it is both perfect and inherently flawed.

    No, if it's wrong, you change it.

    That's what was done with teaching Creationism the first time around. It was wrong, so it was changed.

    Now someone wants to reintroduce it to students, which is really just a clusterfuck.
    It's extremely counter productive.

    Endomatic on
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    saint2e wrote: »
    There's a lot of wishy-washiness in this forum with regards to public education. Apparently it is both perfect and inherently flawed.

    No, you're just confusing secular governments with theocracies and pretending that they're both the same.

    moniker on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited May 2009
    No public education is unimprovable.

    Fencingsax on
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  • saint2esaint2e Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    moniker wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    There's a lot of wishy-washiness in this forum with regards to public education. Apparently it is both perfect and inherently flawed.

    No, you're just confusing secular governments with theocracies and pretending that they're both the same.

    I've taken that out of the equation with my later posts seeing as how people couldn't see past it to the underlying question I'm asking:

    Regardless of popular opinion, if your local school is teaching something you do not want your child exposed to, do you have the right to exclude your child from that class/lesson? Or should your child be "forced" to be taught that lesson that you are against?

    saint2e on
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  • DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Linden wrote: »
    It's not 'your' damn kid - that child is a member of society, an agent with potential to reshape the entire world, and they belong to themselves. This possessive approach to child-rearing harms not only the young, but all of humanity. You have no right to bar a child from discovery - you may present an argument, but that which they wish to know must be open to them. You may be able to shape a child not to believe in reality, but, unfortunately, reality doesn't care.
    I'd like to second this. I think it's bullshit that we consider children the property of parents to the extent that they are allowed to shield them from intellectual ideas or knowledge. If you think your worldview is the right one, make a better argument.

    This is what good parents do, like mine and those of many others I know. I don't understand why this is in fact controversial.

    Absolutely true. The common thread of reactionary religions is to shield their children from any and all digressing or different ideas because the religions know that they lack a better argument and have to force compulsion as a result.

    DoctorArch on
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  • RonaldoTheGypsyRonaldoTheGypsy Or just "Ron" Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    saint2e wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    There's a lot of wishy-washiness in this forum with regards to public education. Apparently it is both perfect and inherently flawed.

    No, you're just confusing secular governments with theocracies and pretending that they're both the same.

    I've taken that out of the equation with my later posts seeing as how people couldn't see past it to the underlying question I'm asking:

    Regardless of popular opinion, if your local school is teaching something you do not want your child exposed to, do you have the right to exclude your child from that class/lesson? Or should your child be "forced" to be taught that lesson that you are against?

    I have the right to exclude my children from whatever I want. Evolution is just a theory. Like climate change and the metric system. I won't have my kids growing up learning some nonsense from patty bachelors degree from hitler state gaynifagsity.

    RonaldoTheGypsy on
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    saint2e wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    There's a lot of wishy-washiness in this forum with regards to public education. Apparently it is both perfect and inherently flawed.

    No, you're just confusing secular governments with theocracies and pretending that they're both the same.

    I've taken that out of the equation with my later posts seeing as how people couldn't see past it to the underlying question I'm asking:

    Regardless of popular opinion, if your local school is teaching something you do not want your child exposed to, do you have the right to exclude your child from that class/lesson? Or should your child be "forced" to be taught that lesson that you are against?

    And you're still ignoring the question of who put that subject matter into the curriculum.

    moniker on
  • saint2esaint2e Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    moniker wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    There's a lot of wishy-washiness in this forum with regards to public education. Apparently it is both perfect and inherently flawed.

    No, you're just confusing secular governments with theocracies and pretending that they're both the same.

    I've taken that out of the equation with my later posts seeing as how people couldn't see past it to the underlying question I'm asking:

    Regardless of popular opinion, if your local school is teaching something you do not want your child exposed to, do you have the right to exclude your child from that class/lesson? Or should your child be "forced" to be taught that lesson that you are against?

    And you're still ignoring the question of who put that subject matter into the curriculum.

    I can only speak for my province, as it's what I'm most familiar with. In Ontario, we have a Government ordained curriculum. I don't know if that differs from province to province or state to state.

    saint2e on
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  • oldmankenoldmanken Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Education in Canada is a provincial responsibility, thus curriculum is set by provincial education departments.

    oldmanken on
  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    saint2e wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    There's a lot of wishy-washiness in this forum with regards to public education. Apparently it is both perfect and inherently flawed.

    No, you're just confusing secular governments with theocracies and pretending that they're both the same.

    I've taken that out of the equation with my later posts seeing as how people couldn't see past it to the underlying question I'm asking:

    Regardless of popular opinion, if your local school is teaching something you do not want your child exposed to, do you have the right to exclude your child from that class/lesson? Or should your child be "forced" to be taught that lesson that you are against?
    Without getting into the discussion over what rights the parents have, I will gladly say that withdrawing your child from a class is a fantastically bad idea barring some absurdly improbable situation.

    If I had a problem with the curriculum, I would address it by challenging the curriculum. I wouldn't tell my kid to stick his fingers in his ears and hum a song.

    Bama on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited May 2009
    if you don't want your child exposed to it, as long as it's not damaging, which ideas that disagree with yours aren't, tough shit. As long as Creationism isn't taught as science, but in a comparative religion class, go for it. I want my kid to grow up to be able to analyze the validity of differing ideas and having some conception of logic and argument.

    Fencingsax on
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  • GogoKodoGogoKodo Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Something that hasn't been really touched on. I guess because it's not about evolution which the op wanted to talk about.
    It says in the op that any discussion with religion, sexuality or sexual orientation gets the same treatment. So it would be possible for a parent to pull their kid out of any discussion that includes talk about homosexuality. That is just amazingly bizarre. It doesn't even need to be sex ed necessarily (pulling your kids out of that is also weird), it could be a course about society, or even about tolerance.

    Lets do a class on tolerance!
    Oh but since we might be talking about religion and sexuality you have to get your parents consent.
    I don't my kids learning about them homos....

    Also to the point of evolution. Pulling your kid out of evolution teachings is a good way for them to fail in future biology classes.

    GogoKodo on
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    saint2e wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    There's a lot of wishy-washiness in this forum with regards to public education. Apparently it is both perfect and inherently flawed.

    No, you're just confusing secular governments with theocracies and pretending that they're both the same.

    I've taken that out of the equation with my later posts seeing as how people couldn't see past it to the underlying question I'm asking:

    Regardless of popular opinion, if your local school is teaching something you do not want your child exposed to, do you have the right to exclude your child from that class/lesson? Or should your child be "forced" to be taught that lesson that you are against?

    And you're still ignoring the question of who put that subject matter into the curriculum.

    I can only speak for my province, as it's what I'm most familiar with. In Ontario, we have a Government ordained curriculum. I don't know if that differs from province to province or state to state.

    I'm talking about your hypothetical, not Canada. The supposed 'wishy-washiness' or hypocrisy of the posters only manifests when you produce a curriculum crafted by someone who shouldn't be empowered to make decisions about public education.

    moniker on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2009
    God damnit, Alberta.

    You should know better than this.

    Bad! That's a very bad province!

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about sex? If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about the Civil Rights Movement?

    If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Kagera wrote: »
    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about sex? If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about the Civil Rights Movement?

    If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    Yes.

    Gaddez on
    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Kagera wrote: »
    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about sex? If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about the Civil Rights Movement?

    If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    One of these two concepts involve personal lifestyle choices and the other is factual, historical information. Do you know the difference?

    joshofalltrades on
    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about sex? If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about the Civil Rights Movement?

    If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    Yes.

    What? What's next, we let schools force my kid to learn about math?

    IN MY HOUSE WE DON'T BELIEVE IN THAT TRASH.

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Kagera wrote: »
    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about sex? If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about the Civil Rights Movement?

    If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    One of these two concepts involve personal lifestyle choices and the other is factual, historical information. Do you know the difference?
    What's involved in sex education these days? Is there a "who's a better lay" chapter or something?

    Bama on
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Kagera wrote: »
    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about sex? If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about the Civil Rights Movement?

    If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    One of these two concepts involve personal lifestyle choices and the other is factual, historical information. Do you know the difference?

    What kind of sex-ed courses did you have? Mine was all about factual, historical information regarding the transmission of diseases and preventive measures that are presently available. Also the basic biological method by which reproduction occurs. It's not like we sat around watching porn while the teacher instructed us on the appropriate methods of using anal beads. :|

    moniker on
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Bama wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about sex? If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about the Civil Rights Movement?

    If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    One of these two concepts involve personal lifestyle choices and the other is factual, historical information. Do you know the difference?
    What's involved in sex education these days? Is there a "who's a better lay" chapter or something?

    Like I said, I don't know because I'm not there in class with them.

    In any case, what's funny to me is how this board typically advocates choice unless it's something you disagree with, and then CHOICE IS BAD.

    joshofalltrades on
    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Bama wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about sex? If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about the Civil Rights Movement?

    If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    One of these two concepts involve personal lifestyle choices and the other is factual, historical information. Do you know the difference?
    What's involved in sex education these days? Is there a "who's a better lay" chapter or something?

    Like I said, I don't know because I'm not there in class with them.

    In any case, what's funny to me is how this board typically advocates choice unless it's something you disagree with, and then CHOICE IS BAD.
    How do you know that they aren't being taught the principles of white supremacy in home economics class?

    And yea, why people gotta be robbing me of my choice to kill people? I mean obviously if some choice is good then all choice is good, right?

    Bama on
  • LizardLizard Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    So I've done enough lurking to figure out the dynamics of this forum.

    One of you says conservatives are fucking stupid, then the rest of you start jerking each other off, repeat 20x the next day.

    Is that about right?

    Lizard on
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    edited May 2009
    ITT, sex-ed at home = killing people

    joshofalltrades on
    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    ITT, sex-ed at home = killing people
    That was the basis of my argument, yes.

    Bama on
  • SpeakerSpeaker Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Lizard wrote: »
    So I've done enough lurking to figure out the dynamics of this forum.

    One of you says conservatives are fucking stupid, then the rest of you start jerking each other off, repeat 20x the next day.

    Is that about right?

    You stopped lurking for this?

    Speaker on
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    Walkers with the sun and morning, we are not afraid of night,
    Nor days of gloom, nor darkness -
    Being walkers with the sun and morning.
  • EndomaticEndomatic Registered User
    edited May 2009
    Bama wrote: »
    ITT, sex-ed at home = killing people
    That was the basis of my argument, yes.

    Well, I'm for it!

    Endomatic on
  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Keeping your child at home so they don't learn something only makes sense if that thing goes away when you stop believing in it. It's one thing to say that a subject is a waste of time, or not important, or wrong, or offensive subject matter. It's another entirely to say that you don't want your child learning something because you don't believe in it. Even if you don't, your child should still learn about it in a general sense, so that they know that the belief exists, and why some people DO believe it.

    SageinaRage on
  • an_altan_alt Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Although Stelmach has confirmed the bill will give parents the authority to exclude their kids from classes if the topic of evolution comes up, Education Minister Dave Hancock said it won't change anything.

    "With respect to values, religion and sex education have always been areas of concern for parents, and they've always been areas parents have had the right to be notified about and to exempt their students from," Hancock said.

    So... the situation is unchanged and this is much ado about nothing?

    I mean I spent K-10 in a rural area of a socially conservative province and nobody ever pulled their kid of out sex-ed or any other classes. I guess the option always existed for us too, but it was never used to the best of my knowledge.

    an_alt on
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  • DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Lizard wrote: »
    So I've done enough lurking to figure out the dynamics of this forum.

    One of you says conservatives are fucking stupid, then the rest of you start jerking each other off, repeat 20x the next day.

    Is that about right?

    No, it's just that some conservatives have no valid argument other than "I don't like it" and they then get upset when the rest of us jerk offs pile on and call them on the vapidity of their argument.

    Sex-ed and science classes are based in fundamental, objective teachings and it is to everyone's benefit that we instruct our young in these things. You don't get to challenge math because you don't believe in the represented value of the number 1, nor do you get to pull your child out of math instruction because "you don't like math."

    DoctorArch on
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  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Kagera wrote: »
    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about sex? If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about the Civil Rights Movement?

    If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    One of these two concepts involve personal lifestyle choices and the other is factual, historical information. Do you know the difference?

    So sexuality is a choice, now?

    I love how this seems to be an either/or situation. I want my hypothetical future-spawn to learn stuff from both their parents and their school. I plan to be involved enough in their lives so that I know if their school is teaching them things I don't agree with, and I'll be there to provide my alternative perspective rather than pull them out of lessons in case they start thinking things different to me. If my perspective of the world doesn't stand up to an opposing viewpoint, it's not worth having or teaching.

    Rhesus Positive on
  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Of course, rather than address that Josh would rather act like I called him a murderer and get in a huff.

    Bama on
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Could somebody show me where I said I wanted to inhibit your choice to let your kids learn about sex in school?

    joshofalltrades on
    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited May 2009
    It's time for another episode of Random Thoughts, by ElJeffe:

    - There is a bit of a fuzzy line here separating religion from non-religion. In the mind of a YEC, for example, God creating the world in six literal days is an incontrovertible fact, just as people who aren't wrong assert that evolution is a fact. It's not just a matter of religion to them.

    - That said, they can learn to deal. When 99.999% of all experts in the field are saying A is true, we have to go on the assumption that A is true. Especially when the 0.001% is only saying A is false because they entered the field specifically to try to prove it so. That's not how science works. Or any sort of fact-based study, for that matter.

    - Creationists aren't required to agree with the curricula. If they believe in a 6-day Creation, they can teach their kids about that all damned night. But the school still gets to teach them the facts agreed upon by just about everyone not ignorant while those kids are on school grounds.

    - Sex-ed is a bit of a different beast. For starters, it has two backs.

    - That was bad and I apologize.

    - Seriously, there are defensible reasons to withdraw your child from sex-ed that have nothing to do with being a freaky prude-boy. There is a reason we don't just teach sex-ed and STD prevention in kindergarten; children need to reach a certain level of emotional maturity before they can deal with all that info in a responsible fashion. And not all children mature at the same rate. While most kids held back from sex-ed classes are likely just saddled with freaky prude parents, there may be some who are actually so withheld for good cause. Parents should have that right, given that they are the best judges of their children's temperments, even if many parents will be stupid about it.

    ElJeffe on
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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited May 2009
    Could somebody show me where I said I wanted to inhibit your choice to let your kids learn about sex in school?

    Sure:
    I want to inhibit your choice to let your kids learn about sex in school. Also, ElJeffe is the best mod.

    ElJeffe on
    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

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  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Well another problem with this is that their schoolmates are likely to tell them most of the stuff they missed from the sex-ed class so now you've traded them learning about sex from another adult for them learning about sex from another child.

    Bama on
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    I agree with ElJeffe's views on sex-ed, because they're acknowledgements of the limitations of our schooling system.

    EDIT: Sadly naturally beneficial to both excellent and ignorant parents.

    electricitylikesme on
  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Kagera wrote: »
    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about sex? If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    So it's the public school's job to teach our kids about the Civil Rights Movement?

    If I prefer to do that myself without some stranger teaching them God-knows-what I'm wrong?

    One of these two concepts involve personal lifestyle choices and the other is factual, historical information. Do you know the difference?

    Evolution isn't historical information now? Oh wait did you not remember the topic?

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    edited May 2009
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Could somebody show me where I said I wanted to inhibit your choice to let your kids learn about sex in school?

    Sure:
    I want to inhibit your choice to let your kids learn about sex in school. Also, ElJeffe is the best mod.

    I follow lies with absolute truths.

    joshofalltrades on
    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    ITT, sex-ed at home = killing people

    Do you underSTAND the idea behind education systems or are you just going to continue spouting nonsense spins to make it look like we want to 'oppress teh peoples'?

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
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