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Introversion, rude or socially acceptable?
Zombie Monkey
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I consider myself more introvert than extrovert, and i also happen to know one or two people who are complete introverts. To me, this is fine, each to their own etc. This being said where i currently live there seems a tidal wave of negative feeling towards introversion. Case in point, where i currently reside there is someone in the halls who is, by all measures, completely introverted. He is a great guy, we have breakfast quite often and dinner, but make no plans to do so, its more ad hoc, im down in the dining hall and so is he, we have a good chat and go our merry ways for the rest of the day. This is absolutely fine by me, during our chats we sometimes discuss it and he explains thats just how he feels more comfortable and i can relate as oft my own company is far more appealing to me than others. Other than these brief interludes he keeps to himself, though if you knock on his door hell respond and if you call him hell pick up and chat, hes not socially incapable by any means, just in his own words "more comfortable in my own company". We have been living together for a while so this is the norm, having said this the group i currently live with have had doubts since day one. During group conversations or movie nights the subject started as "oh he is just shy" then "oh hell come out of his shell soon" and after a few weeks this appeared not so, we invited him but he was reticent and let the group down gentley, i was fine with this, the group however began to sour. Soon words spread and there developed an ill feeling towards him, i actually began to avoid the movie nights and takeaways because it ended up being a "well i dont care about him, hes just rude". Soon, before i went home for the holidays, it started sparking off and now no-one save myself will talk to him, which ironically he is fine with, but which has developed a nasty little streak in the flat.
Anyway onto the topic of discussion, this is a single case, one which is meant to illustrate a point rather than be a sole "oh your group and a bunch of shits" topic, i know they are petty and fail for want of understanding but as a point to start a debate, is it right to see introversion as "rude" and "socially unacceptable" or is it just misunderstood by the populous. This is not the first case ive encountered with people who just dont get , even through explanation, that some people just are not as social or needing of group discussion to validate themselves.
Your views please
Anyway onto the topic of discussion, this is a single case, one which is meant to illustrate a point rather than be a sole "oh your group and a bunch of shits" topic, i know they are petty and fail for want of understanding but as a point to start a debate, is it right to see introversion as "rude" and "socially unacceptable" or is it just misunderstood by the populous. This is not the first case ive encountered with people who just dont get , even through explanation, that some people just are not as social or needing of group discussion to validate themselves.
Your views please
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Zombie Monkey on
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Rude is promising to show up with a movie or pizza and then just not coming, repeatedly. I have friends like that, and the worst ever said about it is "oh, they're not coming? Surprise." after the 50th time they've expressed interest in a party and come up with a lame excuse for not showing. Last time was "if someone can come pick me up, sure" followed by "I'll call you back with directions here" when someone said they would. That's rude, not simply saying "I'm not coming."
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Seriously, it's college. Everyone expects it to be a non stop party, and you're usually in such close proximity that it makes sense to hang out all the damned time.
When your friends live a short-decent drive away and you all have work during the week? It becomes all about how you respond to invitations versus actually following through. If you say maybe and don't show, no harm no foul. You say yes and don't show, only bad if you always do it. If you always fail to show up to see friends however, they may stop bothering to tell you about outings since you're obviously not interested.
There's no "man, they're fuckers for not being out here tonight" thing however. Aside from the occasional joke if you have a significant other that gets more attention than your friends. Then the ball and chain jokes are FAIR GAME.
However my circle of friends at the moment are people who work in computers so they probably have more of an understanding than most.
How is the dorm room different to the office where there are invites to drinks, to social occasions, to parties
Id rather discuss the wider social context than the matter specific to the OP it was rather an ice breaker to the topic rather than a problem needing a solution
If personal interaction for you takes effort and bears little enjoyment for you, then interacting with them is basically doing them a favor. And you don't owe them any favors.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
People love an outsider, and by introverts "self-selecting" the role, it some how makes it okay to treat them like shit.
My friends are all pretty extroverted. I'm not. I'll go out to a bar with them once or twice a month, and they're understanding when I bail after an hour or two. They give me a headache and I don't drink, so the later part of the evening isn't nearly as amusing for me.
Heck, at this point one of my best friends will pre-empt me leaving by understanding my limits and telling me it's okay to bail at this point, I've put up with them enough
As long as you pay attention to your friends and don't shutter away from them entirely, they'll be fine with it. College is just kind of stupid at times if you are with the wrong crowd for your preferred social activities.
For me it has been D&D and playing friends over XBOX live. It may not be glamorus but it does fufill the need of your friends to be somewhat sociable and its usually a ton of fun at the same time.
Especially DnD. Any DnD night can turn into a raging alchohol and pot fest for you and your friends, in the comfort of your own (or someone elses) home in a generally small and cordial group, and even if you dont enjoy drinking everybody is still having fun playing the game.
This. I'm still at university, and my dorm life is drastically different even to the life I lead elsewhere in university. I probably wouldn't cross the street to hang out with the guys I live with at the moment (although why we'd all be going across the street when we could stay right here is beyond me), but I'll happily trek three miles into town to hang out with people I'd consider friends.
I live with them: doesn't mean I have to have anything to do with them. Geography shouldn't come into who I choose to spend my time with. Neither should course choices, although there's quite a lot of infighting in my course because the first- and second-years don't hang out with us third-years the same way we did in our day. That's not even being an introvert in most of their cases; they just have other friendship groups.
Bottom line, people should come to terms with the fact that not everyone considers them the best company in the world, and a rejection to hang out should not be taken as a slight to their character.
Introverted people are always going to have a tougher time getting ahead than extroverted people. Extroverted people can network more, they can make conversations with current and potential bosses and clients, etc. That's one of the basic reasons that Life Isn't Fair.
Whether or not you'll have an easier time being accepted outside of the dorms depends a lot on the kinds of crowds you want to be with and the kinds of jobs you want to have. You're going to have more problems selling used cars than doing computer programming, for instance.
You also seem to be saying that you're slightly more extroverted than the "rude" guy in your story, but more introverted than any of your friends. Extreme introversion is a problem in and of itself - in general, any personality trait taken to an extreme can be a problem. If you were introverted to the point of social phobia, then I'd say that you probably want to work on that (through meds & therapy) but mild introversion isn't really a big deal.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
When I bow out at the office and say I'd rather go home than hang out at the bar, or when I skip the office Christmas Party, people aren't offended by the notion that there are things I'd rather do than spend even more time with the people I'm trapped with at the office ten-12 hours of every day. It is, in fact, taken for granted that if I want to do something else, it's probably something I'd enjoy. So when I skip a happy hour, people generally assume that it's so I can go home, cook dinner, eat with my wife and share about our days, watch a movie, fuck like bunnies and then cuddle until we fall asleep. Which is usually what ends up happening.
Seriously, this isn't really a debate. About half the population falls on the introverted side of the spectrum. Your friends are just kind of being dicks.
I distance my introversion from his in regards to the fact that on occassion i quite like the get togethers but not all the time.
Just a reply to the bold:
I am introverted and I sell computers for a living. From personal experience it is completely possible to interact with strangers well and still be introverted. I have absolutely no desire to engage random people in conversation unless I am completely bored (which is never). That doesn't mean I can't do it however. I think one of the best things an introverted person can do is get a sales based customers-in-your-face kind of job, because it forces you to learn social good graces.
Bill Gates: computer mogul, billionaire, introvert.
Warren Buffet: investment guru, billionaire, introvert.
Richard Nixon: politician, President, introvert (also an asshole, but he still got elected President and you didn't).
Colin Powell: US Army general, first black Chairman of the JCOS, introvert.
Jim Webb: Marine, recipient of Navy Cross, United States Senator, introvert.
Stephen Spielberg: director, Oscar-winner, introvert.
George Lucas: producer, writer, introvert.
Harrison Ford: carpenter, Han Solo, introvert.
Michael Jordan: basketball superstar, also somehow got to play professional baseball, introvert.
There are plenty of super-successful people out there who are leaders in their fields. We frequently forget about them because they hardly ever show up in the tabloids or go looking for notoriety -- precisely because they're introverts.
If I picked an equal number of random introverts that I know who just sit at home masturbating to the underwear section of the Sears catalog, would I disprove your point?
People get jobs and get promoted within jobs based largely on how likable they are, or who they know. Often while partly (or completely) ignoring their competence level. Notwithstanding the handful of superstars you mentioned, being in introvert is a huge disadvantage, career-wise.
Yes, El Jeffe, it absolutely would. You have somehow stumbled upon the flaw that makes your overly-broad, categorical statement based on unsupported opinion more true than my statement that people can be highly successful independent of their predisposition towards introversion or extraversion. o_O
Was it ever actually a disadvantage in the first place?
I'm sorry, being an introvert is a huge disadvantage in most of the jobs you just listed. Just like being deaf would be.
Two people are both hard workers and good guys.
person A is an introvert, he has a few close friends and contacts in his industry.
person B becomes friends with his colleagues, customers, regulators, bosses, etc forming a huge work related social network for himself.
person B gets the promotion 9 times out of 10.
Job requirements: getting people to invest in his company, getting the people who are working for him in the companies he buys to believe in his plan for the company, and want to work for him.
Job requirements: making speeches, huge amounts of schmoozing, getting people to vote for him, talking ridiculously obstinate, stubborn people into coming around to his perspective, leading people.
Job requirements: leading a military, ability to work through bureaucracies composed of thousands of people, making people want to follow him, talking to the press.
Job requirements: see Nixon and Powell.
Job requirements: getting ridiculously egotistical people to listen and conform to your vision of what the movie should be, huge amounts of schmoozing, getting funding from studios, negotiating with ratings boards.
Job requirements: fucking up people's childhood, having an almost comic ineptness save for one shining moment of savant-like inspiration.
Ability to mesh and work with a team of people with huge egos, play off each other, etc., also a huge amount of schmoozing.
Ability to mesh and work with a team of people with huge egos, large amounts of schmoozing, ability to talk to the press.
I suppose you could argue that introversion isn't an obstacle to those things, but I really don't think anyone here is that retarded.
Sigh. It's not objective proof if you're making it up.
As an aside, I'd also point out that introversion doesn't mean "does not socialize with others" or "does not have a lot of friends." It's as much about the way that people socialize as anything. Moderately introverted people are less likely to be outgoing with strangers right off the bat, but they'll still socialize with people more as they become more familiar with them. They're less likely to go to a party where they won't know anyone, but that doesn't mean they won't go to a bar and meet other people.
I'd also point ot that "less likely to be outgoing" doesn't mean "not good at being outgoing." Introversion != shy. True introversion is about preference, not ability.
In my professional experience as a political operative, it doesn't matter whether you're extraverted or introverted -- fundraising sucks the soul out of everyone regardless of social preference.
Actually I should add that I've seen both introverts and extraverts be very successful as candidates, and I've seen both sets fail horribly. You have to prod extraverts less to go up and talk to someone; you have to prod introverts less to shut up and listen.
I am extremely introverted. I don't enjoy parties or going to bars and such. I am not especially social. Just being around groups of people I don't know well except in circumstances that make ignoring those people either socially acceptable or mandatory (say on the street, in a library, store, workplace, theater, stadium etc) drains and stresses me.
That doesn't make me a social half-wit. Its an easy equivocation to make but one doesn't mean the other. I can fake it when necessary and in smaller groups of people I know I can be comfortable and personable for hours without a problem and tend to enjoy myself. I can exchange the BS social niceties and trade favors. I just don't enjoy or need extensive social interaction, especially with strangers or colleagues.
Does that mean I don't have access to some advantages a more extroverted person might have? Sure, more time spent on that can lead to more favors and advantages. My father was a South Boston bartender. He got his wedding and reception (250 people) to my mother essentially for free (it would cost 10s of thousands now) and had it performed in a nice Catholic Church (he isn't Catholic). He knows someone every place and we've taken train rides for free, stayed in people's places for free, gotten into sold out shows for free, etc. My sister is the same way, able to get by with charm and the "gift of gab" when other people would have problems.
But there are plenty of extroverts who lack all social graces. They tend to be the most annoying, trying to become friends when they are annoying. Extroversion is neither sufficient, nor really necessary (although it helps a great deal) to be socially gifted. The guy who is charming and endearing as fuck but only comes by every once in a while is as likely to get favors as the guy who is always around and can do it with less time put in.
And we're going off stereotypes here, but an extrovert is going to tend to fall in with the crowd more because an extrovert needs the crowd more. Introverts, I suggest, are far less likely to jump off a bridge when everyone else does because they don't need that social sphere as much as the extrovert.
One isn't better than the other and not needing to be around people doesn't mean you are Comic Book Store Guy or that you just want your red stapler back. Assuming that extroversion and social ability are the same is like assuming that unless you're an introverted nerd you are a moron.
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* Standard disclaimer against extreme examples of either.
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Take me. I'm modest, good-looking, well-liked, have a large network and am pretty successful with what I do. All this aside, I'm still an introvert. If I don't make the effort, I might sit in my office all day, doing work. But I make the effort. Its not like I have some fucking handicap, or get twichy and weird when I talk to people. In general, I simple would rather not talk to people I don't care about, about things I don't care about.
It's not that I dislike hanging out, it just drains my batteries, while being alone charges them. I have to be sure I take the time to lock myself in my office from time to time.
This is truth you speak. Extroversion is no better than Introversion at all; and social utility I would argue is not based on personality but ability to work/pay taxes.
Nobody's making moral value judgments; you're reading into things.
A statement on utility is just that: a statement on utility. Nothing more.
Also: some personality traits have more or less economic and social utility than others. To reiterate, "Life isn't Fair."
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I am saying that if you want to be president, being an introvert is a disadvantage. Just like if you want to shoot a standard bolt-action gun well, being left-handed is a disadvantage; not saying it's impossible to overcome, or even all that difficult to overcome, just that it is a disadvantage.
I suppose it helped him that he was running against John McCain, though. I only have met him once but I got a huge intraverted vibe out of him. Then again, he'd already lost. Nothing makes you reserved like losing.
I'm pretty introverted, but try to make a reasonable effort to be sociable with people.
Like someone said, the only real difference between extroverts and introverts is their natural environments. Introverts find it easier to operate when concentrating and being left alone, extroverts find it easier to socialize.
I do agree that being an introvert would probably hurt your chances of becoming president, but tons of introverts operate fine socially, it's just tiring for them. Professionally I have no problem approaching random people or talking business in meetings. It's just personally, I'd rather spend my leisure time programming alone or with a tight group of friends rather than be at a huge party.