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[MISC] IRC Security Complaints
Accalon
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
All of this stuff seems a bit complex just because we get some dimwit griefer sometimes.
I agree with this 100%. Why does one lame duck have to change our entire channel? The added "security" measures seem a bit much, and it really makes it difficult for new people to stop by and join in the group. They have to spend 10 minutes figuring out how to reg their nick and THEN PM and OP with voice powers, just to say "hi".
I think a better solution would be more OPs or HalfOps who can +M the channel when necessary, but on the whole it should be left open to all. I like to think that PAXers are a little more welcoming than a Moderated channel.
PAX 2007 Omegathon Champeen
*Proud member of the Photoshop Heroes*
*Proud member of the Photoshop Heroes*
Accalon on
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This is making it secure to the forum peeps anyway because we are comparing nicks on there to the forum when they register
Edit:
The people that did this so far had no issue with it. They followed my directions and PMed me and were added. The directions are as easy as I could make them. I used to make documents for those to perform complex PCB repairs who didn't speak English... so if there is some confusion in the steps let me know and I can fix it.
also to setup a whole irc network rather than just have people register their nick with nickserv (when they should in the first place to not get it stolen) will be far more complex and confusing
The other option is to password the channel, but the troll in question does read these forums from time to time
The channel is open, and I did promote more hops to voice people when necessary. So far nobody has been denied anything, no idea why you would think that.
So how does this stop him from continuing to grief on the new server? I'm just not following the logic.
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I think it might be easiest just to track this douche down and "take care of him".
"Just tried to get in the PAX IRC channel they've added some lame security measures, after 2 years I'm questioning if its worth inconvenience"
*Proud member of the Photoshop Heroes*
passiveagressive go!
If they have been in there for two years, why have they not registered their nick by now? Also do they not know how to follow a link?
Since when is being frustrated considered passive agressive? Just giving you examples of others who agree that this +m garbage is dumb.
*Proud member of the Photoshop Heroes*
You arent helping your agruement much anyway. If I have to take flak from 1% of people on irc when nobody else is complaining, and espically the 14+ new people that joined irc since this and had no issues or complaints, then so be it.
I wont be discussing this further on the forums, thread is cluttered enough with this bs anyway. I ask that you do the same.
Im not going to let the vocal minority bother me for the greater good of everyone else :P
(I work at MS, already get enough of that on the internets in general, heh)
This thread is for helping people with the unofficial irc chat for pax.
If only :S.
I've been through this situation before on other channels. The only IRC network i know of where they had admins that would actually do things like try and call the originator to discuss things over the phone, etc, was freenode, and that was before the founder died. He would ruthelessly stamp out open proxies, etc.
While our troll is annoying, i'm surprised we've bothered with +m but i support it nevetheless. I've been in channels where the attacks have been significantly worse, with part/join floods, etc. As far as I'm concerned, +m is an acceptible, low-cost, solution.
[00:12] <HotSake> and compensates perfectly
[00:12] <higuys> higuyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguys
[00:12] <higuys> higuyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguys
[00:12] <higuys> higuyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguys
[00:12] <HotSake> Or so my Star Trek Tech guide said
[00:12] <Azazel> I hear nothing
[00:12] <higuys> higuyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguyshiguys
[00:12] <MeeOk> .. ohfun
[00:12] <-- higuys has left this server (Excess Flood).
[00:12] <Moe_Fwacky> !redalert
[00:12] <Azazel> NOThING
The Ban list fills up before he even comes close to running out of proxies
At first, when I saw that one had to register a nick and get on the access list, I assumed that it was another case of an exclusive chat-room where only certain people are welcome. That's not the case, obviously, but it put me off - not because I had to register, because that's easy - but because I had no reason to think otherwise. If there was a clear explanation right up front about why the +m and related measures are needed.... then that would be different. Additionally, nickserv wasn't working the last two times I tried to register.
Lastly, has it not occured to anyone that doing things like +m and requiring everyone else to register and get voice might be playing into the troll's hands? People like these generally don't care for anything other than attention... such drastic measures also invariably confirm such attention to the troll's actions.
HMMMM would you look at that
I don't believe that the majority of the group are, obviously, but some of the folks near the top of the food chain definitely have a "What you like and think is cool are actually STUPID and you are a FAG!" attitude. They set the tone for the whole group, so even though most of us are carebears who would love to have more friends, they drive people away.
I don't understand the attitude, but I do know that it's bad for Penny Arcade, PAX, and Enforcers to have such people be involved with the organization. They might be smart, they might be organized, they might have work ethics, but they have shitty public relations skills, and Penny Arcade needs to wise up to this fact.
The attitude of those up top over this IRC stuff is just one of many things proving their ignorance of positive public relations. The fact that they ignore the arguments against the behavior is proof of their elitism. And the fact that they're still involved with representing Penny Arcade is proof that Penny Arcade as a company has no fucking clue how their brand is really being represented in the community on a day to day basis.
Additionally, we're not an official channel, we don't represent PA or purport to represent them. We're just some people from the forum who like to chat in real time over IRC.
I wasn't saying that trying to prevent spammer attacks was elitist. How you guys have responded to the public's comments about it, that is.
Also, implicit in my post is that there are other things that contribute to an elitist tone for the Penny Arcade community, and that this IRC thing was just one instance of the attitude.
I'm not one to publicly make criticisms like this, but I've been discussing this exact topic with some other folks for four or five months now, and we've all come to the conclusion that Penny Arcade has really, really, really shitty community management and public relations. This IRC bullshit does not help.
In summation, I am against the draconian IRC restrictions as I feel that they severely limit the ability of new community members to become an active part of the community, and I feel that the management's reactions to criticism of the IRC restrictions are an indicator of problems with the representation of Penny Arcade and the PAX community.
I'm not going to say it again.
It take 30 seconds to register a nick with nickserv and pm one of us to get added to the access list. Nobody gets denied access, except our friendly neighborhood spammer troll. You seem to be the only person who has a problem with this community. I seriously don't understand where your complaints are based.
I've been in the chan while mockturtle and/or autokick for him flooded the channel for an hour or more, on more than one occasion. It really ruins the whole idea of "we're here to chat together" if you can't get a sentence seen.
Also, since the channel is actually called 'paforums_PAX', there's no way some people can claim that you have no affiliation with the actual PAX. It may not be officially sanctioned or anything, but the fact that you're using the name means that you are still a direct representation of PAX as a whole. As far as affiliations are concerned, 'PAX' is trademarked and the channel is using that trademark.
Another thing, and perhaps off-topic, why does the PAX forum see necessary to categorize everything like it is? For new people that have no idea what these are about, it's daunting, to say the least, to even try to make sense of the forums, much less post stuff and get involved.
One last note, why isn't my question of whether +m is just feeding the troll a legitimate complaint? Honestly, I've been in plenty of channels with troll problems, and banning them, +m, etc, have never done anything other than make the troll more determined to come back. Ultimately, I feel that these measures and attitudes, while they may (or may not) prevent future trollings, are potentially driving away plenty of new people. Moe Fwacky, the other guy isn't the only one with a problem, I have questions and problems too. Sure, there are new people who successfully get into the community, but I for one have been disappointed.
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more on-topic: seems that nickserv isn't taking registrations this weekend -
[22:35:59] -Global- [Logon News - May 09 2009] IRC Services are currently in a read-only state--no new nickname or channel registrations will be processed and changes to settings or access lists will not be saved. This is only effective for this weekend.
Keep the channel -m as much of the time as possible, while increasing the amount of HOps/people who can initiate +m. Having people who can do this on at almost all times is crucial, yet very doable. This would not be a change of !redalert, it'd be more of a replacement than anything. Registration and being added to the autovoice list should be strongly encouraged, but not required, as it generally is now. I don't know if there's anything to make non-registrants automatically de-voice if +m or something was engaged, but that may be incentive (while not making it mandatory) to register your nick.
As AutumnWindz has so clearly pointed out, requiring you to register and get setup with such is both draconian to longtime users and hostile to newcomers.
It is totally not necessary to have +m active at all times, only to have people around to activate it when it's actually needed. The current roster of Ops/HOps is insufficient to provide for the flexibility that would be ideal, yet obtainable.
Mockturtle honestly IS NOT A BIG DEAL, and there has been some incredible overreactions to what should be a relatively minor problem.
Yeah it may suck for some of the new people
So does the endless spam
Nobody is turned away from the unofficial irc channel, nobody is elitist, the channel is about as exclusive as the forum (ohnoes registration). Everyone is welcome to both.
The vocal minority (standard internet fare) is making a huge stink about something they don't like, but the rest of the channel is fine with to keep the trolls out. Everyone else sees there's no better option except for a few people.
What I dont understand is why those few people are making everyone in the channel look like complete assholes
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edit: me and atlus win at sametime posting
IRC services are fully restored after last weeks hicup. nickserv registration is reopened.
Go drink some more
he will start to hit us if he does
Just because we're the "vocal minority", does that automatically make our concerns worthless? I've never felt so belittled for having a contrary view in my life. So far there are obviously more than just a couple people that are expression concerns, and on top of that, some are new to the community.
That argument didn't work so well when I started my PAX Singles website. As must as I posted Unofficial all over it, I was asked to not use PAX or Penny Arcade because it's a use of a trademark. If this IRC channel is going to be run by OFFICIAL PA moderators and OFFICIAL PA Enforcers, then I feel if it's going to hold the Penny Arcade branding it should damn well be representing them well...
Right now it is NOT
I have suggested this as well, but was quickly told that I was an idiot and only 100% +M is the way to handle it. I don't see how 2 seconds of spam and then one of the many possible HO's turning on +M is inconvenient. AutumnWindz is right in saying that we're letting mockturtle win and encouraging him to continue this these unnecessary measures.
The PAX forums are here expressly for the purpose of welcoming in new people to our wonderful community. PAX is about finding and making friends who share our passions of games and nerdiness. It should be warm and friendly and as easy as possible to get involved.
Lately, those in charge are portraying an attitude of "We've been here a long time, this community is established. If you want in you'd better do everything our way, the first time, or else."
That's not what this community needs. There are ways, as suggested above, to quell the troll problem without surrounding our community with steel walls and barbed wire. Who wants to join that?
*Proud member of the Photoshop Heroes*
I personally found it really easy to join the IRC. Red was really helpful and I was set up almost instantaneously. It may be a little confusing, but after being there when the trolls came a knockin', I can honestly see the need for those measures.
I don't really get the whole elitist thing honestly. I found this group both on IRC and on the forums to be nothing but inviting and friendly. I also found it to be a really great way to keep in touch with the people I've recently become acquainted with. I suppose I just don't see what difficulty lies in registering. I mean, if people can't do it I understand... but to me it's no different than why an unregistered user can post on these forums.
Just my two cents though.
Are you serious BigRed? You think I'm holding this position out of spite? I am not so pathetic as to try and drag others down just cause I had a hiccup with a fun site I started.
No, this is about trying to keep PAX Forums and the chat channel that is accompanied with it the open welcoming place it should be.
Maybe your intentions are misguided if you feel that is my argument.
*Proud member of the Photoshop Heroes*
In summation, your argument is dumb
"Draconian?" Hardly. Might as well call them Nazi's if you want to start using inaccurate labels. I don't get why people are crying about a very simple registration process that allows the channel to avoid being spammed by some loser with too much time on his hands.
You have to register to use AIM
You have to register to use gmail and googlechat
and MSN, and ICQ and whatever else bullshit chat you want to use
Cry more guys, seriously
No it doesnt, but there are still only a few people that have an issue with this. Everyone is trying to be as helpful as possible when people are signing up on irc. Ive talked countless people through the register process and to get them setup, how is that being uninviting?
How is the unofficial channel not representing them well?
Becuase it changed to requiring registration?
Just like the pax forum that requires registration?
Should the forum not require registration?
I wonder how long that would fly.
This channel has existed for 4 years now and has always been unofficial. Why is this coming up now?
How is this about your dating site? is that what is making you suddenly angry about all this?
We tried that for weeks, hence the scripts i put in place to deal with this (+m the channel and voice people). I granted access of the script to many people, and we promoted a few more people to hops to manually voice people. In that two seconds there can be 3 screens full of text. We would +m then turn it off like 15min later, and the troll would just come back.
How is not allowing the trolls to bother the channel anymore winning? Id call that a victory for us, personally, we dont have to put up with them anymore.
Ever since +m was left on... When new people join the channel, I have been welcoming them via PM and walking them through registering their nick via chanserv (and manually voicing them in the process). I have also asked (since I dont run things, moe does) any other hops/ops to do the same. Is this not welcoming new poeple?
We already tried the above sugguestions to minimize trolling of the channel but it was not effective. Whenever the channel was -m'ed the troll would just return. If anything it angered the trolls further, since hes aware of the script i made and one of his spam messages is its trigger phrase.
Why are you being unreasonable? Its not like we havent tried these other methods before.
Yeah +m sucks for some, but you are acting like we are just leaving it on and not even helping new people along when they join.
Ever since it has been left on to solve the troll problem I have been devoting my personal time to PMing new people who join (im on irc at home and work at least 12h a day) and assisting them with irc (can you say the same thing about forum registration?).
Yeah im not on at all hours, but there have been a few who PMed me overnight (when I was sleeping) and said they followed the instructions on the main page and asked to be added to the access list whenever I got back at the computer. They were not upset over it and just said to get to it when I could. So far its only the one new guy in this thread who had issues with it all, but understand theres no other way to avoid the trolls.
Nobody has been turned away from the channel, its about as exclusive as the forum is, which isnt at all since anybody can signup.
A compromising solution would be to add more hops who are around at the more... odd times of the day than the current roster contains.
Finally a productive sugguestion.
Further discussion about the above will be on irc.