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Oh, Me & My Job Issues
mully
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
okay, weird question that feels like it should have an obvious answer.
so, tomorrow is my review, finally, with my new boss.
some of you may be familiar with my work history here, some of you aren't -- so for those of you who aren't, here's a quick rundown.
- hired as an engineering tech assistant in 2004. (only filing, and cross-training to cover for a co-worker if she's sick.)
- in 2006, "given" the job of CAD Operator alongside engineering tech assistant position. was promised a raise for this position; never received the raise. no promotion. (and, i took over the CAD position not knowing CAD at all, because the dude who did the job just left. so, i took over another full-time job.)
- in 2008, that boss leaves. still no raise for me, but it is a tough job market and i know it would be stupid to leave.
- new boss shows up. thinks i am the best thing since sliced bread. all of a sudden i am doing seminars, documents, spreadsheets, tracking stuff, communicating directly with the clients for safety issues -- a crapload of things that are not, nor ever were, in my job description. no raise. no promotion. still doing all the old stuff, too. and now there's a new social committee, and i'm the president of it. i know that likely has no bearing whatsoever on my job, but, thought i'd mention it because it's a lot of outside-of-work time for the direct benefit of the company.
so.
here's the thing.
i know i am going to be offered a "newly developed position" (basically, he wrote down everything i do NOW, including the CAD job, and slapped the original title "engineering T.A." on it), along with .... a raise.
here's the thing. for the things i do, i have made it clear in the past how much i want. we will call that amount "B". i am almost certain that i am going to be offered amount "A", which, knowing this company, will be more or less 2k more than i'm making now. i know that people starting in this kind of position, typically make 2 - 5k MORE than what i want, "B".
i know i'm being used, and have been from the start. but i know i'm needed, now, and i know my boss will fight to keep me here.
SO.
when i am offered "job position" (no promotion, even though essentially it is making me an executive assistant with a huge media-oriented sub-job) for "A" amount ... how do i answer?
what is acceptable to say in this position? can i say, "i am not ready to take on these new duties until the amount is closer to the amount i requested previously"? can i say "for that much - no"? do i have to say "yes"?
if i'm already in a solid job, and someone is recreating my job -- can i be fired for not wanting to absorb more duties for essentially no raisewhen already grossly underpaid?
i just need to know how to react to the "this job for 'A' amount". what is the best thing to say/do?
thanks guys.
so, tomorrow is my review, finally, with my new boss.
some of you may be familiar with my work history here, some of you aren't -- so for those of you who aren't, here's a quick rundown.
- hired as an engineering tech assistant in 2004. (only filing, and cross-training to cover for a co-worker if she's sick.)
- in 2006, "given" the job of CAD Operator alongside engineering tech assistant position. was promised a raise for this position; never received the raise. no promotion. (and, i took over the CAD position not knowing CAD at all, because the dude who did the job just left. so, i took over another full-time job.)
- in 2008, that boss leaves. still no raise for me, but it is a tough job market and i know it would be stupid to leave.
- new boss shows up. thinks i am the best thing since sliced bread. all of a sudden i am doing seminars, documents, spreadsheets, tracking stuff, communicating directly with the clients for safety issues -- a crapload of things that are not, nor ever were, in my job description. no raise. no promotion. still doing all the old stuff, too. and now there's a new social committee, and i'm the president of it. i know that likely has no bearing whatsoever on my job, but, thought i'd mention it because it's a lot of outside-of-work time for the direct benefit of the company.
so.
here's the thing.
i know i am going to be offered a "newly developed position" (basically, he wrote down everything i do NOW, including the CAD job, and slapped the original title "engineering T.A." on it), along with .... a raise.
here's the thing. for the things i do, i have made it clear in the past how much i want. we will call that amount "B". i am almost certain that i am going to be offered amount "A", which, knowing this company, will be more or less 2k more than i'm making now. i know that people starting in this kind of position, typically make 2 - 5k MORE than what i want, "B".
i know i'm being used, and have been from the start. but i know i'm needed, now, and i know my boss will fight to keep me here.
SO.
when i am offered "job position" (no promotion, even though essentially it is making me an executive assistant with a huge media-oriented sub-job) for "A" amount ... how do i answer?
what is acceptable to say in this position? can i say, "i am not ready to take on these new duties until the amount is closer to the amount i requested previously"? can i say "for that much - no"? do i have to say "yes"?
if i'm already in a solid job, and someone is recreating my job -- can i be fired for not wanting to absorb more duties for essentially no raisewhen already grossly underpaid?
i just need to know how to react to the "this job for 'A' amount". what is the best thing to say/do?
thanks guys.
mully on
0
Posts
I would ask if there's negotiation, but wouldn't press too hard. Probably colored by me being out of a job, but you don't seem to mind the work but just feel, justifiably, you should be better compensated.
Really it just comes down to can you afford to not work/quit? If yes, than press for more money. If not, well there you go.
i like my job, but i feel like if i keep saying 'whatever', i'll never get what i know i deserve
is it even legal for a company to fire someone because they refuse to take on new duties for too little pay? like if they said "we want you to fly planes, we'll give you a 2k raise from your filing clerk job" and i said "thats unreasonable" ... i could be fired on account of ... what? non-cooperation?
it's also bothering me that i'm doing a much higher level of work than what my title denotes that i do, and therefore payscale is going alongside the title -- even though they claim that with our company reorganization that i will be salaried by "job points" or something. (certain amount of points for each part of job description. -- at least it's up to date now, to a point.)
If the boss really is that great, and really does want to keep you there that badly, then pointing out the pay scale for new hires doing your job, and the fact that your pay is way below that, and saying you want to be payed the right amount for the work you do shouldn't throw him/her for a loop. Of course, "you're so great, what would I do without you, I'll fight to keep you here" could just be him/her blowing smoke up your ass to make you feel better about the fact that you're not being paid well at all and that they don't intend to change it.
Remember, a $2k raise comes out to less than $1 an hour, after taxes.
You have no leverage. In this job market, your fairly easily replaceable. And since it's clear they don't care if you can actually do the work before they give it to you, that makes you even more replaceable. Simply put, if you want to leverage your position with this company to what you feel your worth, you'd better have an offer somewhere else that shows them what your worth.
I would definitely push for the B amount. Women are especially taken advantage of by not asking for more money. Just remember that the amount of money at A is just a starting point for the negotiation. Counter the offer and say, "For doing this, I think I really deserve B+2." Then you might end up in some compromise, but it's better than just taking the offer.
Put together a list of the things you'll be doing in your job, find similar positions at other companies and compare the salary. If you need to, you can always say that the industry standard for this position is X.
one of the problems is that i am the only person in the company with the job that i have, despite the fact that we have 200+ people. the other "T.A"s in the company are data-entry people, and nothing more. they do some percentages, they do some filing, they fill in online-forms.
i guess that makes it trickier for them, as well. bah.
good to know @ 2k being ~ $1 an hour or less. will definitely remember that and make use of it.
man this is all so retarded. i guess i'm going to have to see what happens. maybe i'll be surprised and it'll be closer to "B" amount than i expect.
edit: i work in Downtown Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Of course, I just found out I was getting laid off, and they offered me a position in Canada for 30% less pay. I told them that with the higher taxes in Canada, stateside tax liabilities, higher cost of living in Vancouver, somehow worse weather than Seattle, and an unstable exchange rate, they had better come up with a better offer than that if they wanted to retain me, even though I knew it wasn't a negotiable offer. Result: I have a set end date at my current job. So I guess I might not be the best person to give advice about this subject, heh.
Oh, not sure about Canadian labor laws, sorry. I would think you have more protection than we do here in the US, but I don't know.
Regardless, at least ask for more money. You need to sell yourself, say "I'm doing this and this and this" and show why you're worth it. It sounds like you don't just have an entry-level job that just anyone can do.
And look, if they say no and will not back away from salary A, you can always take it. Though I'd highly recommend you look for a better job if that happens. If they aren't going to give you more money now, they're just going to keep treating you poorly.
i told my boss back in february that i wanted B amount.
i wrote out a list of everything i did, everything that was not on my job description, everything that had happened in my 5 year tenure that was applicable, and slapped it down on his desk, then sat down and we talked about it.
i told him i was giving him 30 days to get me a response, because i was tired of being overlooked.
at that time, he came back about a week later and said "im working as hard as i can, i need more than 30 days, we are going to completely redesign your position and give you a salary that reflects it properly, you have been overlooked for far too long"
the job re-design ive already seen - the title, i am unhappy with, but it is of little concern to me at the moment.
this will be the part where i see if what i asked for is there or not.
is there any way/point for me to bring up the social committee thing? i mean, all the other social committees i know have one person in HR leading them - and here i am running the whole thing for free. i dont think i can get more of a raise for that, but is there any negative side to bringing it up? i dont know what im asking.
like, for example, would it be better to say "is this salary negotiable?" first, or just dive right into it and say "i'd like to negotiate this salary; i think X is more suited to the duties i perform."
and yeah, joeuser, i know at the moment i'm irreplaceable because i'm doing a technical job with creative edges and i know it's rare for someone to be good at both. (im not blowing my own horn, im just good with computers and happen to be an artist so it really makes things like spreadsheets and documents and seminars come to life. usually these things would be done by someone who is purely tech.)
i guess i should mention that. haha.
the second one
Put it on your resume and use it to get yourself a better position down the line. Ask for "B" salary, but don't dismiss the offer if it ends up being "A."
No one is in a great situation at the moment, but that doesn't preclude you from moving up and on once we've recovered. Get the experience, but this is no time to be picky as you'll be compensated justly as soon as the market recovers. YMMV. If you're living comfortably, get the experience and the job description. Take the additional 2k a year and re-negotiate if you get a better offer.
You're worth more than "A," but a steady and stable job is worth more than anything. Don't shoot yourself in the foot. Either the company looses you because you're worth more, or you end up with more because you are worth more. Either way, you're in a good position for moving forward.
So shop around. You aren't worth more than "A" until someone offers you "B" or "C."
Your Mileage May Vary?
My advise isn't what everyone would want to hear. The market isn't terrible in every field, mine included. I suppose the point is that you're worth what you're offered. Even if you have every skill in the book, you've got nothing unless someone thinks you're that worth it.
If you are doing a job without the background they would normally want/require for this type of job, your pay will likely reflect that along with your potential within the company. Not all companies do this, but I'm under the impression that many larger corporations or public companies will do this as they will base salary on experience and education. As far as pay difference goes, the education you have can effect the compensation you get.
As far as your 'promotion', keep in mind that many companies will not officially promote you until you have shown to be able to handle the responsibilities rather than just give you a raise and a ton more resopnsibility if they are not sure you can handle it. So one method of getting a promotion is to get more responsibility, show you can handle it plus your regular workload and then you have a much better chance of being recognized for it. To those who don't know your job, it'll look like you're doing all these new things. To those who nkow you and your job, you are just being rewarded and recognized for your efforts.
And no one is going to offer "B" if you don't go looking for it.
Suffice to say, my little goal rock is worth nothing until someone makes a bid to purchase. I'm not saying that Mully isn't worth "B," but you aren't going to get it unless someone offers. Don't roll over and take "A," but be prepared to take "A" if they won't offer "B."
Agreed, here.
that cad person i replaced? he worked 4 days a week (i work 5). making -- wait for it -- 4k more than i do right now. ONLY doing CAD work. right now, i do that job (faster, i might add.), my original job, plus all the seminars, valuations, mapping, documents, graphics when necessary, etc, for FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS LESS THAN HE DID.
about the education: i just got my CAD Certification with distinction, a couple of months ago. shouldn't be a problem anymore.
about promotion being showing you can handle more: i've been doing the CAD job for 3 years now. i've been doing all of this other extra stuff for over a year. and i am being told it's not a promotion because it is what the position needs, not a position advancement.
i should also add that my boss is constantly telling me how he cant believe how great i am, constant "what would i do without you"s, constant "you always exceed my expectations by so far".
everyone knows that the jobs i take on, i take on because i can do them, and do them well.
So go elsewhere and get a better offer. If you're worth it you're worth it. Any company that can afford it will pay to keep talent in their corner. You have to prove that you can make more elsewhere.
Exactly.
The option available is to get an offer for "B+" and bring that to management.
Remember to be assertive. I know that sounds cliche, but it's true. Don't ask if you can negotiate, state what you think you're worth.
edit: And if your boss does think so highly of you, I think he'd be willing to work with you.
your mileage may vary
That's what I'm ending right now (2 year "training" wage). I was fresh out of university and no real experience so I get a lower wage. 2 other team members were hired same time but since they have experience they started at a normal wage.
It's really if you think you can find the same work somewhere else for what you are asking for. Wage expectations are bottoming out now because people want WORK even if it is less than they want.
If your job title is actually reclassified, that does help your case. It's also a big help that your boss is on board with it. As JoeUser just said, be assertive, but don't be surprised if they come back with their standard raise package.
You'd have some leverage if you had a job offer.
If he doesn't bring it up, you should definitely ask about it.
Absolutely!
Ask about it tomorrow. Shape the conversation to your needs. If "A" is their hard-line, get an offer elsewhere and prove to them that you're worth "B."
Heh, you'd think that, but you'd be wrong. I did the same thing and got a great offer from another company.
My employer's response? "Welp, hope you enjoy working at your new job, because you're not worth that much here."
I think a lot of it depends on how you bring this up. I've seen people who would tell the person who gave them the offer that they had this other offer worth more and wanted a response. The attitude plus method of delivery was seen as something both slightly offending and a potential issue in the future if they decided to keep telling the company about these offers they got and why the company should pay them more.
I've seen more success from people who mention that they are very interested in the offer and had another offer show up that paid a little more and wanted to let the company know if there's any chance they could get closer or meet the other offer, they would work for the company. It's seen as a more positive approach due to both demeanor and language. Something companies tend to respect more than trying to show off to the company how much some person they don't care about, thinks you are worth.
is there ANY reason why that should happen?
Because you let it?
Not that you had a lot of choice, but a company will try and get a way with paying you as low as possible. They aren't looking out for your interests at all. You have to be willing to step up and walk away.
Because that's what they did at the time?
The company will screw you at every possible venture. Unless you get "B" you aren't worth "B" to them. Get another offer.
Experience, education and "other" goes into calculating your salary. Show them you're worth "B" and they'll pay you "B." Get an offer from another company for "B," otherwise, from an economic standpoint you aren't worth "B."
Companies will do the minimum, as that is the most profitable. Nothing will change their mind other than an offer elsewhere, if you're absolutely necessary. I did this recently and the company couldn't pay me my "B." I'm starting a new job Tuesday for my "B" salary.