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I NEED RECORDING HELP AND ALSO AM TOO DUMB TO MAKE MY OWN THREAD
darleysam
On my way toUKRegistered User regular
On my way toUKRegistered User regular
I've had some good help from here before about recording, and I'm looking to do more with the band over the summer, but the way it's being done at the moment seems like more work than it should be. We've got a Fostex MR8HD which has 8 tracks, but you can only record to the first 4. Tracks 5 and 6 then play solely out the left and right sides respectively, then 7 & 8 are used for mixing down everything else. Basically all we've been doing is recording to the first 4 tracks then dropping it over to a computer. Since we're a 4-piece band (two guitars, bass, cajon, up to 4 vocals), this creates a lot of hassle. Anyone got any advice on making this a quicker and easier process?
Also, are there any good guides to getting the best out of Audacity? I'm looking at getting some better audio software, but feel that Audacity should do everything we need if I could just actually use it properly.
Also, are there any good guides to getting the best out of Audacity? I'm looking at getting some better audio software, but feel that Audacity should do everything we need if I could just actually use it properly.
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In regards to Audacity, what are you having trouble using exactly?
As for Audacity, for a start, I have a hard time lining up separate tracks. As far as I've found, there's an option to add empty space to a track that lets you input the amount of time to add, but it seems like a strange way to do it. Is there some other way?
Another issue I seem to have is that everything is either really quiet, or clipping far too easily. Getting the gain levels right on the recorder is a nightmare.
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Line-6-POD-Studio-GX-with-POD-Farm-105148589-i1427099.gc
I have an older version and I love it. Great for recording or just jamming. I bought that about a year ago and haven't turned on an amp since.
I use it to do one track at a time with software that does multitrack. If I had hosting, I could let you hear some things I've recorded with it, but alas.
The great thing is that the POD Farm software has a VST version, so you can use it in a program that supports VST (most do). This means you can record the guitar part but change the amps/effects after it's already recorded.
As it is, it sounds like I should be recording 4 tracks (maybe guitars and bass to a metronome/click track, then drums after since we can't isolate the cajon from the rest very easily), copying them over to the PC, then bouncing them over to a separate track on the recorder to play back when recording drums and vocals (also separated). Then move those over to the PC too, and mix the whole lot together in Audacity.
As for levels, I think some kind of compressor will come in handy as I've had a nightmare before trying to set things up right, trying to find the precise point for the gain where it's neither clipping half the time, or too quiet except for one section.
edit: would something like this likely be any good (I like that it has 4 channels, for instance), or is it going to be too cheap and nasty to be of any use?
hitting hot metal with hammers
The best way to do this is to:
Record the drums, with the drummer wearing headphones connected to a metronome.
Record the bass, with the bassist listening to the drum track.
Record the guitar, with the guitarist listening to both track combined.
Record the vocals with the vocalist listening to the instrumental tracks.
You want to preserve each single-instrument recording though, and once you've collected all of them, work at mastering them correctly. This becomes virtually impossible to do a really great job of with free software if you've recorded everything at once.
No, this is not the fastest way. It is the best way. Recording is tedious and time consuming.
What's even worse is that your drums are just the cajon. If the cajon isn't used the way a proper drum kit is (with its own phrases, transitions, fills, and a consistent beat through the entire song), then you're actually going to want to record your bass first and that can suck in its own special way.
Also finally, if your amplifiers have a Line Out jack, run that directly into the board. If they do not, DO NOT connect the speaker outputs directly to the board or you will destroy things. If you do not have Line Out jacks to run into the board, you're stuck micing the amps if you want a decent sound. This sucks when it comes to recording a bass, as most microphones are not well designed to pick up a bass guitar's full range correctly.
If you're stuck without a Line Out on the bass amp, get your bassist to buy a DI box. It's a little trick that boosts the bass guitar's output up to line level and outputs a nice, consistent signal level. They're cheap, you can usually get one for $40 or less, and he'll need one if he's ever caught playing a shitty venue that cannot provide them and which refuses to mic his amp or cannot mic his amp, and which is too large for his amp to address on its own (not that you'd want to anyhow, it'll make the sound closer to the stage suck if the bass is to be audible at any decent distance from said stage).
Guitar amps can be mic'd easily and with great success using a vocalist's mic in most cases. Shitty vocals mics won't do a good job, but that goes without saying.
If you just want to record everything at once with only 4 inputs and no professional soundproofing, it's going to sound like ass. But, the way I'd tell you to do it is to dedicate one mic to the cajon, one to the guitar amp, and 2 for vocals. Make your vocalists sing two people to a mic. Note that none are dedicated to the bass amp, that's because you're not going to get a good sound out of it anyhow, so just turn it up high enough that it shows up a little bit on each of the mics and suffer along. Since you're not dealing with cymbals or kick drums, this might actually work really okay if you don't mind having the bass guitar low in the mix. You're also going to have to record, stop, listen, fix the levels, and repeat that cycle a LOT before you get the levels set to something halfway balanced.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
Are you not using microphones? How are you getting the sound into the Fostex?
Don't go and buy a compressor, just use the one that comes with Reaper (or Audacity, I'm sure it has one). Shitty software plugin compressor > shitty hardware compressor and it's free. It's also the non-destructive route to take!
As for how to record - Pheezer just told you the best way to do it, but it sounds like you'd like to play live a little more. I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but it sounds like you're not at the point where you're getting studio-level quality, I'd worry more about the performance than isolating the tracks. Back in the day, folks used to sub-mix things - this would involve getting a few cheap mixers (Behringers like the Euromix series are perfect for this) and running the stereo outs of the mixers into the channels of your Fostex. Sub-mixing could allow you to, fairly inexpensively, run all your inputs simultaneously while preserving at least a little bit of isolation post-recording (like having lead and background vocals as separate tracks, for example). You'd have to commit to whatever you sub-mix, but it'll teach you a heckuva lot about mixing the hard way which you absolutely will benefit from down the road.
For things like the bass, that you're probably running direct into the Fostex, you're looking for something called a DI (direct injection) box that impudence matches the signal your bass is putting out with the mic-pre / line-in your Fostex has. This will improve your signal quality / strength and is pretty important for bass. I survived with a cheapo Behringer active DI for many years.
That being said, besides the mixers and the DI for starter, Behringer stuff is usually garbage and you will outgrow it quickly. Use it only when you have no other options, but don't ignore it outright.
Also, go to the Tape-op forums. They're the best. http://www.tapeop.com. Get a subscription while you're at it.
Any suggestions on mics for the cajon? We normally have a bass one in the back and something at the front for the snare sound or wire brush, but I've got no idea what'd be good for recording, or what kind of prices and qualities to expect.
Regarding mics we already have, there's a Rode condenser and a couple of dynamics. You say don't use a hardware compressor, but my problem with using software is that if it's clipping during the recording, then surely that information's already lost by the time you get it to the software, right?
What mics do you have exactly? Be very specific (model number and whatnot). The R0de is probably fine for the cajon (I've never mic'd one myself!) but you might like how the dynamics sound. Don't go too nuts but experiment and trust your ears - if you like how it sounds, print it. I'd be more than happy to give you budget mic recommendations.
WARNING: A compressor is not designed to KEEP A SIGNAL FROM CLIPPING. That's called a limiter and you don't want that either - set your signal level so that it is as loud as you can get it without clipping. Compressors take the loudest sounds its hears and makes those sounds quieter - then it increases the volume of the whole signal so that there is less dynamic range. When used properly this is a good thing and your signal will sound louder / punchier / more like you expect it to. Wikipedia to the rescue! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression
I'll try to get the details of the mics tomorrow evening.
What he's saying is that putting a compressor or limiter between your mics and your interface won't solve your clipping problem, because the sound will already be distorted.
What you want to do is prevent the clipping problem altogether, by setting the gain to a point where you don't clip. What that really means is recording the song, finding out you clipped, turning it down and trying again until you know y'alls dynamics a bit better. Side note, listen to Pheezer, he speaks golden truths.
And cheers, that makes more sense. The reason it was concerning me is that where we're recording a song that's both loud and quiet, I either have to set the gain on the recorder to a level where the quiet part is at a decent volume, but then the loud part is peaking out (red lights!), or I set it lower to where the loud part is okay, but the rest is inaudibly quiet.
Really, this is where multitracking is going to be useful. You use one track for the loud parts and another track for the quiet ones, then you can master them independently and mix them together.
That's why you use a multitracking recording suite. You just record the loud parts on one track, then go back and record the soft parts on another track.
That should be fine on the Fostex we've got, but I was just thinking if I could put the same input onto two tracks, I could set one for the quiet parts, one for the loud, and only need to run through it once.
That's certainly an option and totally up to you, but most "professional" recordings are usually comprised of tons of takes and tracks. They have those huge mixing boards for a reason. Generally, the more time you put into a recording, the better it's going to come out. But if you're just wanting to record you guys jamming, by all means.
If you don't have a deadline, doing one person per day tends work very well for this. That way no one is waiting on anyone to do a correct take.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
Who recorded the stuff on your Myspace?
What I used to do is a take with just guitar and voice, maybe keyboard, getting the lyrics and harmonies down. Then I would take that home and work on it (depends on the project). Then jam to it, then do another take of the guitar and voice for me to do the first drums take with the click on one ear and the song in another.
You've got to put it down on paper until you get better with the thing. That's the way I do it, I put everything on paper, a score if you will and play it every take. Get a big whiteboard and put it there, they are a lifesaver
Then I use my previous takes to build better fills and grooves, providing I have the time and inspiration to do it. If not, I just do my thing and finish the damn thing.
Then comes bass and does his takes
Then keyboards and guitars and finally the singer does his thing.
That's the way I've done it in the past.
It's also pretty much a once person affair all the time. No need for the whole band to be there unless they want to be super-hands on. They mostly don't care and only listen to the takes and ask for "less drummage" or "more drummage"
The "one instrument at a time" is a good way to avoid frustration and unexpected sounds, which makes it worthwhile since you haven't really done this before. I bring up some alternatives so you're aware that there's a range of recording styles.
This ties into what people are saying about the compressor, too. Generally you want to record everything relatively "dry," because a dry mix lets you add effects as you see fit. If you record with reverb, compression, or other effects, you're stuck with those effects -- which may not work in the final mix. Stuff like distortion or wah are a bit different, of course, but talk it out with your bandmates to figure out what effects are essential to each instrument's sound (this will likely only affect guitar and maybe bass guitar).
What is also good is to make sure everyone is on the same page, song-wise. Before recording for real, set up a room mic and have everyone play all of the songs you're going to record, so everyone gets a refresher and knows their parts. Treat it like a gig, or a pre-gig practice session. Then when you go to recording, people can use that as their baseline.
Finally, the "art" of recording is largely about mic type and mic placement. When I record my double bass, I get one right up next to the bridge, tucked up near the tailpiece, and I take a second mic and place it back a few feet. The mic near the bridge picks up the strings and playing nuances, while the mic a few feet away picks up the boom and power of the lower notes and also a small amount of natural room reverb. My friend likes to record his acoustic guitar with two mics, pointed in a V (or X) at his sound hole, as it gives a natural, "full" sound without having to widen the stereo field later in the mix. It works for him because his songs are simple, without other instruments.
If you're interested in recording beyond just this one project, you'd probably benefit from a subscription to Tape Op. You can get a free subscription directly from them, and they're one of the best recording magazines out there, and does a good job of straddling professional and amateur/hobby recording.