If you allow yourself to get upset over the release of a game, or the lack of free content for a game, then you might be taking your life a bit too seriously.
Heres my view on it. I bought L4D knowing what was included and not even thinking about DLC and what could be added. "Ooooh in the future I might get a few new weapons? Awesome, I'll buy this game." No, I enjoyed the demo and the game appealed to me so I bought it and I'm still playing it now.
Pissed about a new realease because you became bored with the first one? Fine, dont buy the second, simple as that. The only major free DLC that valve had released before L4D was for TF2, so its not like regular steam customers were being shafted by Valve.
People buy Fifa/Madden/NHL year on year regardless of the additions, why should a new installment of a popular PC game which has a lot more new content than those titles be free/reduced?
Just my 2 $texas.
Left 4 Dead, set for release on PC and Xbox 360 on November 21 in Europe, is primarily a four-player cooperative game that sees a group of Survivors battle through four 'Movies' and against 28 Days Later-style zombies called The Infected.
Newell said that Valve's support of the game post-launch will be essential for growing the community.
He said: "One of the things that we're doing is we seem to be in a transition between games as a package product and games more of a service. So if you look at Team Fortress 2, one of things that's really helped grow the community is the continuous updates, where we release new maps, new character classes, new unlockables, new weapons. And we tell the stories about the characters, like the meet the sniper, or meet the sandwich. And that ongoing delivery of content really seems to grow the community.
"So each time we've released one of those for Team Fortress 2 we've seen about a 20% increase in the number of people who are playing online. And that number is really important because it determines how many community created maps there are, how many servers are running, and so on. So we'll do the same thing with Left 4 Dead where we'll have the initial release and then we'll release more movies, more characters, more weapons, unlockables, achievements, because that's the way you continue to grow a community over time."
Good for TF2, but L4D isnt TF2.
Like I said, dont like the fact they havnt released free DLC? Stop playing, they arn't forcing you to buy L4D2.
I like L4D. I didn't feel the original content alone was worth $45-$50. I would've waited for a sale had I known there would be no "major" additions to the game. But I guess holding Valve to their word is entitlement.
Yea this puts it perfectly. Fuck yall who say "entitlement" in this thread.
But if you paid $45-$50 dollars, regardless of what your expectations were, the onus of spending that money still falls squarely on your shoulders. You can't shout at Valve for that. They didn't force you to spend it.
But when you freely and willingly spend it, continuing to go on and act as though Valve owes you something beyond the product you paid for is a irritating sense of entitlement. If you aren't happy with the product, don't spend money on any more of it, or any more of Valve's works.
That's your right as a consumer. You do not have a right to make a list of demands from Valve. That just makes you look like an ungrateful child.
You are fucking retarded. We aren't talking about politics or a totalitarian government here. It's a video game maker that owes you nothing. They provide a service, you either buy it or you don't. There's no cause for revolution here.
If Valve hadn't compared the potential L4D support with what they've done with TF2, I would be less frustrated at L4D2 being an actual sequel that's being released a year after the first and not an expansion pack
Oh wow. Look at that, the world isn't black and white. There are shades of grey... and I think I see a blue! When did these get here?
Well in this instance it is. Like L4D but dont wanna pay for lots of new content? Shut the fuck up and carry on playing 1 then. Wanna play new content? Pay for it.
Either buy it full price or stfu. Clearly the only two options. Unless of course you consider having an informal discussion with fellow buyers of said product about how there wasn't advertised future content, and instead will probably wait for a discounted price on the second product with similiar promises. Thats not one of the options at all. No, either buy immediately or never play it ever and never talk about it ever.
But if you paid $45-$50 dollars, regardless of what your expectations were, the onus of spending that money still falls squarely on your shoulders. You can't shout at Valve for that. They didn't force you to spend it.
I wonder how much of the new content: chainsaws, axes, new weapons, characters, maps etc. would have been added free to LFD1 via the modding community. I mean, who wasn't thinking of a chainsaw when they heard about the SDK?
The big thing here is how much stuff people wouldn't have modded in, like the souped up AI director, actually adds to the experience and if that seems worth the asking price. 20ish bucks? Sure. 50 bucks? Well, it better be a HUGE step up.
On a more subjective note, though, I'm a bit disappointed that we're getting LFD2 just because it strikes me as way less interesting than other Valve products on the creative side of things: we've gotten Half Life games with amazing storytelling in an interactive environment and gorgeous set pieces, Portal, which was arguably an even better synergy of storytelling and gameplay, with the innovative Portal gun, and, to a lesser extent, TF2, which had amazing, Pixar like character design.
This whole argument will be settled depending on how well L4d2 sells. In a few months we'll have the definitive answer from the gaming community as to whether this was a bitch move by Valve or whether it's appreciated.
But when you freely and willingly spend it, continuing to go on and act as though Valve owes you something beyond the product you paid for is a irritating sense of entitlement. If you aren't happy with the product, don't spend money on any more of it, or any more of Valve's works.
That's your right as a consumer. You do not have a right to make a list of demands from Valve. That just makes you look like an ungrateful child.
Makes me an ungrateful child? Because when Valve says they're going to do the exact same thing they did with TF2 which was continual support and add-ons to strengthen the community it seems like they're the ones making a list, not me.
And when they go and do one thing off that list and say whoops lets make a sequel it's not entitlement, it's dissapointment. Look it up! They're different words!
Look, this release doesn't really concern PC players, this was made mostly from a console sales perspective.
A. This seems to be emerging from the Turtlerock devs more than Valve. The success of L4d they see as an opportunity to create the more fully featured game they wanted, rather than the streamlined test bed Valve made it into. (The melee weapons, extra infected, extra bullet types and that quote above about the devs wanting to make the game much larger seem to indicate this.)
B. And why Gabe ok'd the project despite hesitations, is that this will make a mint among console players, seeing as the first L4D was huge and earned them a ton of money. When Chet is saying that adding the new additions in isn't feasible with DLC, he's talking about from a console perspective. Because otherwise that statement is complete BS from a Steam point of view. TF2's model didn't work on console because of the long turn over time and because of system limitations brought about by all the new effects.
Seeing as the L4D addon stuff came at a relatively steady pace for both platforms shows that they're using this game as Valve's wedge into the console market.
On a more subjective note, though, I'm a bit disappointed that we're getting LFD2 just because it strikes me as way less interesting than other Valve products on the creative side of things: we've gotten Half Life games with amazing storytelling in an interactive environment and gorgeous set pieces, Portal, which was arguably an even better synergy of storytelling and gameplay, with the innovative Portal gun, and, to a lesser extent, TF2, which had amazing, Pixar like character design.
Now we get...SHOOT DEM ZOMBIES...2. :?
The common infected are really impressive in their ability to navigate. You rarely see them exhibiting bot-like behavior or clearly getting confused as to where they need to go. If something gets in their way, they just jump up and clamber over whatever obstacles they encounter. That's a huge accomplishment to me; making an AI that seamlessly interacts with its environment is really difficult.
And they really nailed the tension level. Even after you've encountered a hundred Hunters, that little creepy piano sting that plays whenever they spawn still puts you on edge.
Kupi on
My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
If Valve hadn't compared the potential L4D support with what they've done with TF2, I would be less frustrated at L4D2 being an actual sequel that's being released a year after the first and not an expansion pack
Oh wow. Look at that, the world isn't black and white. There are shades of grey... and I think I see a blue! When did these get here?
Well in this instance it is. Like L4D but dont wanna pay for lots of new content? Shut the fuck up and carry on playing 1 then. Wanna play new content? Pay for it.
Either buy it full price or stfu. Clearly the only two options. Unless of course you consider having an informal discussion with fellow buyers of said product about how there wasn't advertised future content, and instead will probably wait for a discounted price on the second product with similiar promises. Thats not one of the options at all. No, either buy immediately or never play it ever and never talk about it ever.
So you've e-mailed them and told them of your frustrations? Good for you. You did your part. Keep on bitching.
But when you freely and willingly spend it, continuing to go on and act as though Valve owes you something beyond the product you paid for is a irritating sense of entitlement. If you aren't happy with the product, don't spend money on any more of it, or any more of Valve's works.
That's your right as a consumer. You do not have a right to make a list of demands from Valve. That just makes you look like an ungrateful child.
Makes me an ungrateful child? Because when Valve says they're going to do the exact same thing they did with TF2 which was continual support and add-ons to strengthen the community it seems like they're the ones making a list, not me.
And when they go and do one thing off that list and say whoops lets make a sequel it's not entitlement, it's dissapointment. Look it up! They're different words!
And what about the content that they've said they will still be adding to L4D1?
This whole argument will be settled depending on how well L4d2 sells. In a few months we'll have the definitive answer from the gaming community as to whether this was a bitch move by Valve or whether it's appreciated.
Yes, all of my opinions, too, are decided by what other consumers think.
This whole argument will be settled depending on how well L4d2 sells. In a few months we'll have the definitive answer from the gaming community as to whether this was a bitch move by Valve or whether it's appreciated.
Yes, all of my opinions, too, are decided by what other consumers think.
Not your opinions. Our collective opinion.
Money > Message Boards. Reality tends to be the final arbiter of these debates.
But when you freely and willingly spend it, continuing to go on and act as though Valve owes you something beyond the product you paid for is a irritating sense of entitlement. If you aren't happy with the product, don't spend money on any more of it, or any more of Valve's works.
That's your right as a consumer. You do not have a right to make a list of demands from Valve. That just makes you look like an ungrateful child.
Makes me an ungrateful child? Because when Valve says they're going to do the exact same thing they did with TF2 which was continual support and add-ons to strengthen the community it seems like they're the ones making a list, not me.
And when they go and do one thing off that list and say whoops lets make a sequel it's not entitlement, it's dissapointment. Look it up! They're different words!
And what about the content that they've said they will still be adding to L4D1?
I can also say what is up with all you people defending Valve? You all are witnessing lameness being played out in front of us like a play.
What is up? What's up is I'm witnessing the same histrionic shitstorm that surrounding the release and implementation of Steam, and that turned out aces.
I'm just tired of seeing people acting with a smug sense of entitlement over something that nobody in no way owes them. If you bought L4D you got more than your money's worth in the initial release. I understand Valve promised more content for L4D, and if anyone is jumping the gun, it's people crying foul on not getting that content.
Give the company a goddamn chance to deliver it and stop acting as though you are entitled to it like a wedding dowry.
Getting content in a timely manner matters much.
It help keeps the community together and active, as Gabe Newell said. Whatever they might release in the coming months isn't goign to matter a whole lot, regardless of the L4D2 announcement, if my community of friends has moved on to bigger and better things, which much of them have. It used to be I had to turn down 2 or 3 invites a night because I was already in a L4D game in progress, now I'm lucky to get 2 or 3 invites a week. And I'm not talking about the bevy of invites back when L4D first released, this was not too far back in March and April, 4 to 5 months after release.
I attribute that mainly to persistent, unfixed bugs and a lack of initial and additional content.
So content might be coming down the road, but who's left to give a crap?
Oh wow. Look at that, the world isn't black and white. There are shades of grey... and I think I see a blue! When did these get here?
Well in this instance it is. Like L4D but dont wanna pay for lots of new content? Shut the fuck up and carry on playing 1 then. Wanna play new content? Pay for it.
But if you paid $45-$50 dollars, regardless of what your expectations were, the onus of spending that money still falls squarely on your shoulders. You can't shout at Valve for that. They didn't force you to spend it.
Although it's ultimately up to Valve, it's in Valve's best interest to make the $45-50 their customers have spent feel worthwhile to those customers. Getting feedback, good and bad, active and passive, is the absolutely only way to do that. What we're doing here will, hopefully, help Valve improve things. In other words, we bitch because we care.
Simply staying mum and not buying a game will only do the least bit of good in improving L4D2. One would like to think this is especially true in Valve's case.
But when you freely and willingly spend it, continuing to go on and act as though Valve owes you something beyond the product you paid for is a irritating sense of entitlement. If you aren't happy with the product, don't spend money on any more of it, or any more of Valve's works.
That's your right as a consumer. You do not have a right to make a list of demands from Valve. That just makes you look like an ungrateful child.
Makes me an ungrateful child? Because when Valve says they're going to do the exact same thing they did with TF2 which was continual support and add-ons to strengthen the community it seems like they're the ones making a list, not me.
And when they go and do one thing off that list and say whoops lets make a sequel it's not entitlement, it's dissapointment. Look it up! They're different words!
And what about the content that they've said they will still be adding to L4D1?
Valve says a lot of things these days.
I'll believe it when I see it.
So either never or 2011
Right, because after this spat they're totally going to drop L4D1 forever
well they sure haven't added anything worthwhile to it yet.
but, all the patches! So much content in those patches. Are you forgetting all those fixes???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
This whole argument will be settled depending on how well L4d2 sells. In a few months we'll have the definitive answer from the gaming community as to whether this was a bitch move by Valve or whether it's appreciated.
Yes, all of my opinions, too, are decided by what other consumers think.
Not your opinions. Our collective opinion.
Money > Message Boards. Reality tends to be the final arbiter of these debates.
The only way you are correct is if Valve is completely deaf to the community and its discussions and changes nothing based on our cries. The reality of sales does not exist in a vacuum.
Yeah, they've been very supportive with lots of patches and following through with finishing versus. Especially stuff like the smoker buffs and melee fatigue has really rounded out the game
I think people are just seeing a bandwagon and hoping on it. Valve are a good company, have been responsive in the past, and I doubt that this outcry is something they'll ignore
So we're not supposed to expect companies to fix their game if it's broke?
cool story bro
Beyond bug fixes, lots of additions like the ones I mentioned and more (losing team is infected first, consistent tank spawns) go far and beyond what you would normally find in patching (see: Relic)
Orikae! |RS| : why is everyone yelling 'enders is dead go'
When I say pop it that means pop it
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NappuccinoSurveyor of Things and StuffRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
The rage, its palpable!
The problem with l4d2 is that we still don't know what content l4d1 is actually getting. Once they say "you're going to get a campaign and an extra special infected not to mention this awesome weapon *dingle dangle*" I'll be totally cool with l4d2.
The problem with l4d2 is that we still don't know what content l4d1 is actually getting. Once they say "you're going to get a campaign and an extra special infected not to mention this awesome weapon *dingle dangle*" I'll be totally cool with l4d2.
at a 30 dollar pricepoint.
I'll buy it anyway but 30 dollars would be more acceptable to me
So we're not supposed to expect companies to fix their game if it's broke?
cool story bro
Beyond bug fixes, lots of additions like the ones I mentioned and more (losing team is infected first, consistent tank spawns) go far and beyond what you would normally find in patching (see: Relic)
So we're not supposed to expect companies to balance their game if it's broke?
The problem with l4d2 is that we still don't know what content l4d1 is actually getting. Once they say "you're going to get a campaign and an extra special infected not to mention this awesome weapon *dingle dangle*" I'll be totally cool with l4d2.
at a 30 dollar pricepoint.
What about 5 campaigns, 3 special infected, and at least 5 or 6 new weapons on top of new AI director logic and added support for custom maps from the game's predecessor?
So we're not supposed to expect companies to fix their game if it's broke?
cool story bro
Beyond bug fixes, lots of additions like the ones I mentioned and more (losing team is infected first, consistent tank spawns) go far and beyond what you would normally find in patching (see: Relic)
So we're not supposed to expect companies to balance their game if it's broke?
cool story bro
Read again, these weren't fixes but gameplay changes that were a pretty big deal. They go far and beyond what other companies do with their games in terms of patching.
This whole argument will be settled depending on how well L4d2 sells. In a few months we'll have the definitive answer from the gaming community as to whether this was a bitch move by Valve or whether it's appreciated.
Yes, all of my opinions, too, are decided by what other consumers think.
Not your opinions. Our collective opinion.
Money > Message Boards. Reality tends to be the final arbiter of these debates.
The only way you are correct is if Valve is completely deaf to the community and its discussions and changes nothing based on our cries. The reality of sales does not exist in a vacuum.
If you have some magical way of divining what the community (meaning all the people who bought and play L4D) really thinks about the sequel, I'd love to hear it. Sales are the definitive answer, message boards don't remotely count.
/edit: Beyond that, without knowing the pricing structure of the Steam version -- I'm assuming the 360 will be a normal 60$ release -- a lot of this talk is just insanely premautre.
Hockey Johnston on
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NappuccinoSurveyor of Things and StuffRegistered Userregular
The problem with l4d2 is that we still don't know what content l4d1 is actually getting. Once they say "you're going to get a campaign and an extra special infected not to mention this awesome weapon *dingle dangle*" I'll be totally cool with l4d2.
at a 30 dollar pricepoint.
What about 5 campaigns, 3 special infected, and at least 5 or 6 new weapons on top of new AI director logic and added support for custom maps from the game's predecessor?
The problem is, so far the game looks the same but with a few minor tweaks. Much like any other expansion pack.
Posts
Good for TF2, but L4D isnt TF2.
Like I said, dont like the fact they havnt released free DLC? Stop playing, they arn't forcing you to buy L4D2.
Sorry you can't fight facts.
edit: more like mere_incompetent. Learn to read bro.
See now you're just being a bit of a dick.
Takes no longer than 2/3 mins to find a game.
edit: So they didnt deliver on/changed a post release point, like I care. I enjoy the game and that enough for me.
But if you paid $45-$50 dollars, regardless of what your expectations were, the onus of spending that money still falls squarely on your shoulders. You can't shout at Valve for that. They didn't force you to spend it.
But when you freely and willingly spend it, continuing to go on and act as though Valve owes you something beyond the product you paid for is a irritating sense of entitlement. If you aren't happy with the product, don't spend money on any more of it, or any more of Valve's works.
That's your right as a consumer. You do not have a right to make a list of demands from Valve. That just makes you look like an ungrateful child.
but they did, sooooooooo
Either buy it full price or stfu. Clearly the only two options. Unless of course you consider having an informal discussion with fellow buyers of said product about how there wasn't advertised future content, and instead will probably wait for a discounted price on the second product with similiar promises. Thats not one of the options at all. No, either buy immediately or never play it ever and never talk about it ever.
Mars Elliot has the right idea, admitting spending money on l4d was a bad idea.
The big thing here is how much stuff people wouldn't have modded in, like the souped up AI director, actually adds to the experience and if that seems worth the asking price. 20ish bucks? Sure. 50 bucks? Well, it better be a HUGE step up.
On a more subjective note, though, I'm a bit disappointed that we're getting LFD2 just because it strikes me as way less interesting than other Valve products on the creative side of things: we've gotten Half Life games with amazing storytelling in an interactive environment and gorgeous set pieces, Portal, which was arguably an even better synergy of storytelling and gameplay, with the innovative Portal gun, and, to a lesser extent, TF2, which had amazing, Pixar like character design.
Now we get...SHOOT DEM ZOMBIES...2. :?
Makes me an ungrateful child? Because when Valve says they're going to do the exact same thing they did with TF2 which was continual support and add-ons to strengthen the community it seems like they're the ones making a list, not me.
And when they go and do one thing off that list and say whoops lets make a sequel it's not entitlement, it's dissapointment. Look it up! They're different words!
A. This seems to be emerging from the Turtlerock devs more than Valve. The success of L4d they see as an opportunity to create the more fully featured game they wanted, rather than the streamlined test bed Valve made it into. (The melee weapons, extra infected, extra bullet types and that quote above about the devs wanting to make the game much larger seem to indicate this.)
B. And why Gabe ok'd the project despite hesitations, is that this will make a mint among console players, seeing as the first L4D was huge and earned them a ton of money. When Chet is saying that adding the new additions in isn't feasible with DLC, he's talking about from a console perspective. Because otherwise that statement is complete BS from a Steam point of view. TF2's model didn't work on console because of the long turn over time and because of system limitations brought about by all the new effects.
Seeing as the L4D addon stuff came at a relatively steady pace for both platforms shows that they're using this game as Valve's wedge into the console market.
360?
at least a million seller.
That doesn't mean anything.
The common infected are really impressive in their ability to navigate. You rarely see them exhibiting bot-like behavior or clearly getting confused as to where they need to go. If something gets in their way, they just jump up and clamber over whatever obstacles they encounter. That's a huge accomplishment to me; making an AI that seamlessly interacts with its environment is really difficult.
And they really nailed the tension level. Even after you've encountered a hundred Hunters, that little creepy piano sting that plays whenever they spawn still puts you on edge.
So you've e-mailed them and told them of your frustrations? Good for you. You did your part. Keep on bitching.
And what about the content that they've said they will still be adding to L4D1?
Yes, all of my opinions, too, are decided by what other consumers think.
Not your opinions. Our collective opinion.
Money > Message Boards. Reality tends to be the final arbiter of these debates.
I'll believe it when I see it.
So either never or 2011
Getting content in a timely manner matters much.
It help keeps the community together and active, as Gabe Newell said. Whatever they might release in the coming months isn't goign to matter a whole lot, regardless of the L4D2 announcement, if my community of friends has moved on to bigger and better things, which much of them have. It used to be I had to turn down 2 or 3 invites a night because I was already in a L4D game in progress, now I'm lucky to get 2 or 3 invites a week. And I'm not talking about the bevy of invites back when L4D first released, this was not too far back in March and April, 4 to 5 months after release.
I attribute that mainly to persistent, unfixed bugs and a lack of initial and additional content.
So content might be coming down the road, but who's left to give a crap?
Do you see the irony in your post, immortal?
Although it's ultimately up to Valve, it's in Valve's best interest to make the $45-50 their customers have spent feel worthwhile to those customers. Getting feedback, good and bad, active and passive, is the absolutely only way to do that. What we're doing here will, hopefully, help Valve improve things. In other words, we bitch because we care.
Simply staying mum and not buying a game will only do the least bit of good in improving L4D2. One would like to think this is especially true in Valve's case.
Right, because after this spat they're totally going to drop L4D1 forever
but, all the patches! So much content in those patches. Are you forgetting all those fixes???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
The only way you are correct is if Valve is completely deaf to the community and its discussions and changes nothing based on our cries. The reality of sales does not exist in a vacuum.
I think people are just seeing a bandwagon and hoping on it. Valve are a good company, have been responsive in the past, and I doubt that this outcry is something they'll ignore
cool story bro
Beyond bug fixes, lots of additions like the ones I mentioned and more (losing team is infected first, consistent tank spawns) go far and beyond what you would normally find in patching (see: Relic)
The problem with l4d2 is that we still don't know what content l4d1 is actually getting. Once they say "you're going to get a campaign and an extra special infected not to mention this awesome weapon *dingle dangle*" I'll be totally cool with l4d2.
at a 30 dollar pricepoint.
I'll buy it anyway but 30 dollars would be more acceptable to me
cool story bro
What about 5 campaigns, 3 special infected, and at least 5 or 6 new weapons on top of new AI director logic and added support for custom maps from the game's predecessor?
Read again, these weren't fixes but gameplay changes that were a pretty big deal. They go far and beyond what other companies do with their games in terms of patching.
If you have some magical way of divining what the community (meaning all the people who bought and play L4D) really thinks about the sequel, I'd love to hear it. Sales are the definitive answer, message boards don't remotely count.
/edit: Beyond that, without knowing the pricing structure of the Steam version -- I'm assuming the 360 will be a normal 60$ release -- a lot of this talk is just insanely premautre.
The problem is, so far the game looks the same but with a few minor tweaks. Much like any other expansion pack.