Don't even start on stuff like Planescape: Torment. You won't find many cutscenes in there, because playing out the story IS what the game is about.
Are you kidding? The entire game is almost nothing but cutscenes, which is what makes it great. Oh sure, they're really short, but any time you pick a reply and sit through 30 seconds to a minute of dialogue, that's a cutscene. You're not playing at all, you're just listening to the characters banter, which is what makes that game shine.
So you're really using Planescape as an example of a great cutsceneless game that Metroid needs to emulate? You want lots of dialogue trees in a Metroid game? Make up your mind about what you want from this franchise.
Don't even start on stuff like Planescape: Torment. You won't find many cutscenes in there, because playing out the story IS what the game is about.
Are you kidding? The entire game is almost nothing but cutscenes, which is what makes it great. Oh sure, they're really short, but any time you pick a reply and sit through 30 seconds to a minute of dialogue, that's a cutscene. You're not playing at all, you're just listening to the characters banter, which is what makes that game shine.
So you're really using Planescape as an example of a great cutsceneless game that Metroid needs to emulate? You want lots of dialogue trees in a Metroid game? Make up your mind about what you want from this franchise.
If you see cutscene as reading lots and lots of text dynamically altering according to your dialogue choices, then yes, that would be cutscenes as well; after all, entire walls of text where you do nothing but read aren't unheard of (Nier, anyone?).
However, I define cutscene as something without ANY player input. That's why I made an exception for QTEs, which respond to the player's actions. In Planescape: Torment, you are always giving input- you're choosing answers and developing the story; it's just in the nature of the game that, for your input to be processed, you have to read stuff first. It's an immediate reaction. You can even click to the next text choice immediately! Most cutscenes don't react to any choices I make- I basically just cross an invisible line, which is usually no choice at all.
You see, declaring that to be a cutscene would narrow it down too much. In the same line of argument, the tiniest bit of delay after the cutscene introducing a new colossus in Shadow of the Colossus would be a cutscene as well- after all, I can't do anything for those fractions of a second! Nevermind that it's got a function as some kind of breather, or that it's there for technical reasons.
But fine, let's have it your way: dialogue in general is a cutscene as well. That would make Planescape: Torment one of the cutscene-heaviest games in existence. However, going by that definition, P:M would also be a "cutscene manipulation game". There's a much nicer word for that...
Role-Playing Game.
In short, P:M, as a RPG, has every right of the world to dabble in heavily-manipulated "cutscenes". Videogames are generally not a good medium for RPGs; if you're playing a round of Dungeons & Dragons, the "cutscenes" would be the DM describing things, but wouldn't you agree that such descriptions are pretty much part of, no, the POINT of the game?
And Metroid? That's not a role-playing game! It's an action game! In P:M, I am playing by developing the story, which is fine, because it's an RPG and that's their whole POINT. In Metroid, I am exploring and shooting stuff. Cutscenes take away from that. A cutscene in a RPG would be a scene where you are OUTSIDE the story, where any influence on the story were taken away from you- and that's pretty much only the intro, and the ending movie.
Of course, there are games where these two blend together. Genres aren't strictly defined, after all. You might argue that a game with role-playing elements (and, since videogames can never truly reflect EVERY possible reaction to your decisions, even P:M is no "complete" RPG) makes cutscenes, in part, a reaction to your choices as well. That would make them part of the game- videogames are all about action-reaction! But in most games, these choices are so superficial, trivial or plain bad (QTEs! You can choose between continuing, or immediately failing and starting all over!) that the developers might as well not have bothered. Not to mention that even videogame stories which are part of the game can be horrendously bad.
Cutscenes always add to a game, pretty much universally.
Dragon Quest 9 has exactly two high quality, pre-rendered scenes: one in the intro that is sort of a hodgepodge of scenes just to be flashy, and a significant one at some point during the story. I remember the one during the story very well because it was completely awesome and unlike anything I saw rendered normally throughout the rest of the game. To have not included it would have definitely made the game slightly and objectively less impressive/awesome.
The same holds true for every other game. There is a phrase commonly uttered with regard to the ending of Wind Waker, which would not have become such a popular image among gamers had it not been present in a cutscene (since you cannot perform this action in-game).
In fact I'd wager that every person who played Super Metroid during its heyday was blown away by the effects shown in the intro and ending. The voice over declaring the galaxy to be at peace, the awesome scenes of Samus' narration and flashbacks, the ship flying in and out of planets as things explode. The game would have been worse without that. To say otherwise, to whine with the rallying cry of "BUT I'M NOT PLAAAAAYING IIIIT," is ridiculously narrow-minded.
This looks like "hold forward + mash B" with some random jumping involved.
Still remaining cautiously optimistic...
isn't this what super metroid is anyway? i always thought the best part of the 2D metroids wasn't necessarily the combat or shooting but rather the level layout and the atmosphere. Metroid never felt like a platformer to me; it's an adventure game.
Put me in the boat that never thought Metroid was about platforming. Sure there are platforming elements, but any straight ahead platforming title would have probably bombed as a FPS (I am sure someone here will post a list of titles proving me wrong, but whatever.) Metroid made that jump marvelously because of the adventure aspects.
I must be blinded by fanboy-ism, because I don't see what people's problem is with what we have seen so far of the gameplay. Big areas for seamless exploring, dynamic camera angles, fast action...looks like fun to me.
Careful, you are starting to sound like you never really played a Metroid game outside of the Prime series.
Cutscenes always add to a game, pretty much universally.
Dragon Quest 9 has exactly two high quality, pre-rendered scenes: one in the intro that is sort of a hodgepodge of scenes just to be flashy, and a significant one at some point during the story. I remember the one during the story very well because it was completely awesome and unlike anything I saw rendered normally throughout the rest of the game. To have not included it would have definitely made the game slightly and objectively less impressive/awesome.
The same holds true for every other game. There is a phrase commonly uttered with regard to the ending of Wind Waker, which would not have become such a popular image among gamers had it not been present in a cutscene (since you cannot perform this action in-game).
In fact I'd wager that every person who played Super Metroid during its heyday was blown away by the effects shown in the intro and ending. The voice over declaring the galaxy to be at peace, the awesome scenes of Samus' narration and flashbacks, the ship flying in and out of planets as things explode. The game would have been worse without that. To say otherwise, to whine with the rallying cry of "BUT I'M NOT PLAAAAAYING IIIIT," is ridiculously narrow-minded.
You're actually naming good examples of cutscenes! Brief, not too distracting, more a reward than actual substance. They're not good, sure. Get someone who knows a lot about movies, and this person will tell you just that: videogame storytelling almost always sucks; and, honestly, when you're 13 years old, everything looks awesome to you. But that is completely insignificant, because it's STILL awesome to the 13-year old in all of us!
Of course I loved the ending to Wind Waker! Awesome finish! I loved that exploding planet in Super Metroid! I even liked the brief cutscenes in Super Mario Sunshine! Of course they're bad, but who cares, they aren't the star of the show, are they? As long as the developers don't go overboard...
...whoops. There's the problem. I mentioned a few posts back that good cutscenes are brief rewards, maybe a little informative, never the focus, because the game is more important. Games completely without cutscenes are rare; but when you look at the really complex games, that are played decades after their release (Starcraft, Streetfighter, Counterstrike, also Super Metroid!), that are mechanically refined to such a degree that their seem to be worlds between beginners and masters, you'll notice they barely have any cutscenes, or they routinely allow them to be skipped. What does that tell you?
Cutscenes are popcorn.
Nobody MINDS popcorn. In fact, I like a little of it, every time I'm having fun. But it shouldn't be so much I can't look at the screen anymore. What's the point of all that popcorn if I throw away half of it anyway?
That's the reason for my theory that games are universally better off with less cutscenes: they're superficial, barely needed, in fact. Awesome, sure. But in the end, all the budget going into their development could've gone into a more refined game as well.
Usually, this is a minor amount; I doubt Demon's Souls would've been any different if that cutscene shortly before the end weren't there. And that's totally fine, because, while being popcorn, even cutscenes can have their uses (brief reward, awesome stuff, etc.etc.etc.). But then you have stuff like Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts. How much do you think they shelled out for cutscenes? Aren't these games infamous for their notorious overuse of BAD, HORRIBLE cutscenes?
I don't think anyone will disagree that cutscenes are, primarily, spectacle. But I think we've reached a stage where people are confusing MOVIE spectacle for game. To quote countless snarky internet guys on Devil May Cry 3:
"Sweet action. Would've been awesome if we got to play that, eh?"
Of course I loved the ending to Wind Waker! Awesome finish! I loved that exploding planet in Super Metroid! I even liked the brief cutscenes in Super Mario Sunshine! Of course they're bad, but who cares, they aren't the star of the show, are they? As long as the developers don't go overboard...
Of course I loved the ending to Wind Waker! Awesome finish! I loved that exploding planet in Super Metroid! I even liked the brief cutscenes in Super Mario Sunshine! Of course they're bad, but who cares, they aren't the star of the show, are they? As long as the developers don't go overboard...
Really.
Bad, but still enjoyable. Of course, if you insist videogame cutscenes can compete with the entire expertise of an industry at least twice as old as videogames...
Also, the voice acting in Super Metroid was horrible. All two lines of it. And nobody cares! Everybody wins!
The game looks potentially good when it's sidescroller, when it goes into more open areas it looks like Team Ninja really brought in the same expertise they showed in Ninja Gaiden for intuitive, non-frustrating platforming and great cameras.
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Brainiac 8Don't call me Shirley...Registered Userregular
edited July 2010
I'm happy with what we've seen. It looks to be a flashier Super Metroid.
As much as I love the Prime series, I've been wanting a return to what made me love Super Metroid and Zero Missions, and this seems to do just that. Plus I am curious as to how they plan to flesh out Samus' backstory.
In Metroid, I am exploring and shooting stuff. Cutscenes take away from that.
Like Uncharted?
Can't tell- never played Uncharted. What can I say, Darksiders had an awesome horse on his cover, this some dude with perma-stubble... I went with the game that seemed more ridiculous at the time.
Of course I loved the ending to Wind Waker! Awesome finish! I loved that exploding planet in Super Metroid! I even liked the brief cutscenes in Super Mario Sunshine! Of course they're bad, but who cares, they aren't the star of the show, are they? As long as the developers don't go overboard...
Really.
Bad, but still enjoyable. Of course, if you insist videogame cutscenes can compete with the entire expertise of an industry at least twice as old as videogames...
Also, the voice acting in Super Metroid was horrible. All two lines of it. And nobody cares! Everybody wins!
nobody here is pretending that cutscenes are movies or even that video games trying to emulate movies is universally a good thing. cut scenes are neither universally bad or universally good in a video game. there's certainly a feeling of disconnect when you see something cool in a cutscene that you can't actually perform in game, but we've actually seen zero indication that that's going to be common in other m.
cut scenes are best used just as you've described, as flavor and rewards and as check points that progress the story. however, what constitutes as "too much" will depend on the person, not on your own opinions. let's take the most egregious example: MGS4. One of the common complaints about that game is the over use of cinematics, the convoluted story, and how it tries to emulate a film more than it should. Using your logic, this should instantly be a huge red flag and indicate that people are going to be turned off by this game. Nope! Wrong answer! 5 million+ sales worldwide and a 93% on gamerankings. Wow, it sure looked like people avoided that sucker! Looks like critics tore that one apart!
If anything, we've seen a steady shift towards the idea that the more cinematic a game is, the better it will be received. People want epic and grandiose games, even if it's ultimately shallow and pedantic upon further inspection. Presentation, even superficial trinkets such as cutscenes, matter greatly in this industry and I don't really see how you could argue otherwise.
You can dislike cutscenes all you want. That's not what I'm arguing against. And reservation for other M due to team ninja's track record is perfectly understandable. But pretending like a shift towards a more cinematic experience is automatically a bad thing for everyone is just presumptuous and narrow minded.
Man, the side scrolling shooting looks great, it's the forward/backwards hallways i'm worried about.
Looks like a huge, huge pain in the ass to aim and move at the same time.
From everything I've read I don't think the game actually has any aiming to worry about, when you shoot samus just aims at whatever enemies are in the general area in front of her.
Well I mean i'm glad that's not an issue, but doesn't it make things a bit easy then? Where's the challenge?
Nobody knows yet, and there's plenty of room for benefit of the doubt. Maybe a single hit from them will do a lot more damage. Maybe the screen will be filled with projectile attacks. Maybe later enemies will all have defensive moves and require precise timing to beat.
Well I mean i'm glad that's not an issue, but doesn't it make things a bit easy then? Where's the challenge?
i think we'll have to wait and see for the most part but i recall in some interview the devs stating that this game will be less about accuracy when shooting and more about dodging around a large number of enemies on screen.
nobody here is pretending that cutscenes are movies or even that video games trying to emulate movies is universally a good thing. cut scenes are neither universally bad or universally good in a video game. there's certainly a feeling of disconnect when you see something cool in a cutscene that you can't actually perform in game, but we've actually seen zero indication that that's going to be common in other m.
You're right. Instead, it's suggested we get a lot of whiny Samus, a tragic backstory, lots of struggle against authority and more DEPTH. Worked fine in Fusion, didn't it?
Also, it's not just about cool scenes we don't get to play. It's about the fact that "cinematic gaming" is, in my opinion, actively hurting games, but more on that later...
cut scenes are best used just as you've described, as flavor and rewards and as check points that progress the story. however, what constitutes as "too much" will depend on the person, not on your own opinions. let's take the most egregious example: MGS4. One of the common complaints about that game is the over use of cinematics, the convoluted story, and how it tries to emulate a film more than it should. Using your logic, this should instantly be a huge red flag and indicate that people are going to be turned off by this game. Nope! Wrong answer! 5 million+ sales worldwide and a 93% on gamerankings. Wow, it sure looked like people avoided that sucker! Looks like critics tore that one apart!
Are you seriously using gamerankings as an argument? As in, lots of people can't possibly be wrong?
How many people went to see Transformers 2, again?
Sorry, that's no indicator, especially since the videogame press is known to be caught in an interest conflict. In fact, you'll find many, many EXPERIENCED gamers that absolutely loath the cutscene extravaganza of MGS4. (Funny enough, the MGS series is actually really, really clever in many small ways- it just has that weird cutscene fetish, which is like a bad habit that doesn't want to go away...)
Basically, you're conjuring up the wishful thinking of free market enthusiasts. If it's bad, then people won't buy it! Yeah, right...
Funny that you agree with me how cutscenes should be used, calling MGS4's example "egregious", even, but later on argue in favor of "cinematic" games. What exactly is your position?
If anything, we've seen a steady shift towards the idea that the more cinematic a game is, the better it will be received. People want epic and grandiose games, even if it's ultimately shallow and pedantic upon further inspection. Presentation, even superficial trinkets such as cutscenes, matter greatly in this industry and I don't really see how you could argue otherwise.
I didn't argue otherwise. No question, cutscenes DID change the face of gaming dramatically; after all, we got Heavy Rain, the ultimate QTE cutscene, and coincidentally a bad game. I agree!
But I'll tell you what. Why will people remember Halo? Because of the cutscenes? And isn't Kingdom Hearts currently caught up in an incomprehensible mess of a story, presumably because the creators don't have a clue how to tell one? How many more will, at the end of the God of War series, turn around and think: awesome game, but the story has plot holes, no, plot craters?
Shallow design, shallow cutscenes, shallow marketing and merciless pandering to the bases: it can ONLY hurt gaming, because ultimately, we'll get lots of nice graphic demos, but worse games.
You can dislike cutscenes all you want. That's not what I'm arguing against. And reservation for other M due to team ninja's track record is perfectly understandable. But pretending like a shift towards a more cinematic experience is automatically a bad thing for everyone is just presumptuous and narrow minded.
You can't argue against my dislike of cutscenes, because I didn't express any. I said I dislike the overuse and emphasis of cutscenes; when they're used poorly, so to speak.
Also, I never mentioned it's a bad thing for everyone. It's a bad thing for those who want truly great games. For those who WANT shallow experiences, it's doubtlessly paradise on the store shelf. Again, the concept of the summer blockbuster works just like that!
But there ARE people who suffer from it. Or rather, industries. "Cinematic" games are also the most expensive, because they need better graphics and better illusions all the time, because otherwise, the spectacle will wear off! That means higher prices, more expensive consoles, much riskier game development, and much more involvement of the marketing department.
This could be a basic conflict. Spectacle versus substance. Or did you think the sole reason why Counterstrike is still around is sheer nerdiness?
I think just a Wingo split would work best, the dude has no perspective or sense of what he's saying at all. I mean, what the heck is this?
Also, I never mentioned it's a bad thing for everyone. It's a bad thing for those who want truly great games. For those who WANT shallow experiences, it's doubtlessly paradise on the store shelf. Again, the concept of the summer blockbuster works just like that!
I never said air was necessary for everyone, I just said that people who want to live need it!
I think for a fairly significant number of people and I'm certainly one of them, cutscenes don't add much to a game experience as we'd like our games to be interactive. They can certainly make the game worse (for us) though.
I'm highly skeptical, especially with the general failure across the industry to make good female characters.
Also to anyone pointing out sales/reviews I will point out the following: Transformers 2 made a shitload of money at the box office as does a variety of other crap and Black & White was one of the most highly reviewed games of all time.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Ooook. The suffocating amount of elitism in your post is a red flag telling me I should step out of this debate so I will. However, I would like to clarify a couple of my points that you misunderstood.
1. I'm not sure what you think gameranking is but just in case you didn't know, it's an aggregate review site that pulls its numbers exclusively from published reviews. But if that still doesn't jive well with you due to the impartiality in their selection of review, Metacritic has MGS4 at a 94 adjusted score. Yes, people can be wrong and I didn't mean to imply that high sales = a good product but great reviews combined with great sales is a much greater indicator of quality. Transformers 2 was an awful pile of putrid shit but it achieved what it did in the box office in spite of nearly universally scathing reviews, not in conjunction with them.
2. I've never played MGS4 so I personally can't say anything about that game. What I meant when I referred to it as an "egregious example" was that it's the game most people who don't like cutscenes bring up when talking about the fact that they don't like cutscenes. But if one of the worst examples could garner a 94 metascore, it's clear that either the cutscenes add to the game or at the very most detract very little in the eyes of most gamers. Don't bring up "experienced gamers" because that's a nondefinite term. I could just as easily say that many EXPERIENCED gamers enjoyed the ever loving hell out of every aspect of MGS4 and I'd be just as right as you are. And no, I'm not arguing that excessive cut scenes are universally good or bad but that their merit depends largely on the specific game and the personal taste of any given gamer and that their worth is not necessarily dictated by your own personal preferences.
3. Your opinion of a game (in this case, Heavy Rain, a game I've also never played) is not the only opinion worth noting. Lots of people enjoyed heavy rain. These people aren't suddenly noobs or ignorant pedants just because they disagree with your opinion.
Well, I seem to have gone back on my word and entrenched myself in the discussion even further. In any case, I don't think I have much more to say. In case you were wondering what part of your post turned me off indefinitely, it was this little number:
Also, I never mentioned it's a bad thing for everyone. It's a bad thing for those who want truly great games. For those who WANT shallow experiences, it's doubtlessly paradise on the store shelf.
Put me in the boat that never thought Metroid was about platforming. Sure there are platforming elements, but any straight ahead platforming title would have probably bombed as a FPS (I am sure someone here will post a list of titles proving me wrong, but whatever.) Metroid made that jump marvelously because of the adventure aspects.
I must be blinded by fanboy-ism, because I don't see what people's problem is with what we have seen so far of the gameplay. Big areas for seamless exploring, dynamic camera angles, fast action...looks like fun to me.
Careful, you are starting to sound like you never really played a Metroid game outside of the Prime series.
Please, I played the first metroid when it came out.
Being an older gamer gives you some distance: you want to talk about new gameplay mechanics, I was blow away by the ability to go LEFT in a side scroller.
In fairness, I never played Fusion, Echoes, or Hunters.
brokecracker on
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AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
Metroid and Super Metroid had plenty of precision platforming challenges within. In comparison Metroid: Other M looks pretty bland. I'm hoping that's just because the footage is from early in the game where they aren't trying to bust your balls off quite yet.
There are some upgrade spoilers for those of you that are worried but the entire thing is in japanese so I don't think it gave much of anything else away. The more I see of the later stages of this game, the more excited I get. It looks like the soldiers that you meet in the opening mission are there for a large chunk of the game. I'll have to wait and see whether or not that kills the isolation feeling but the combat and scenery look pretty impressive. I know I've read interviews stating that there will be times where it feels like you're working on a team and others where you feel completely alone and isolated. To what extent of either I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Not a big fan of Samus' Japanese voice (in terms of being in character), but those ice levels look cool. I really needed to see something other than that ship.
Not a big fan of Samus' Japanese voice (in terms of being in character), but those ice levels look cool. I really needed to see something other than that ship.
I still haven't seen an environment that didn't look better years ago when Retro did it. But Retro had amazing art direction for the most part (except sort of Torvus Bog).
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
do you speak japanese? cuz as someone who doesn't, it didn't feel like there was much to analyze
Then bless your stars since there really isn't anything to analyze even with the dialogue. I'm not sure if you think that's a good thing but for a game with one of its selling points being the story it isn't for me.
Why the fuck are they naming these guys Maurice Favreau, Lyle Smithsonian, and Adam Malkovich?
Very obviously ripping off Hollywood names and a museum, and it sounds super awkward.
Oh, I forgot. Japan.
Well, remember how we always make Japanese characters with names sourced from anime and their culture.. an eye for an eye?
But yes, in general: when you let Japanese developers give a character a full name, it's either good or it seems like they sourced it out of a dictionary generator.
do you speak japanese? cuz as someone who doesn't, it didn't feel like there was much to analyze
Then bless your stars since there really isn't anything to analyze even with the dialogue. I'm not sure if you think that's a good thing but for a game with one of its selling points being the story it isn't for me.
no, you see, there wasn't much to analyze because without understanding the dialogue, it's just a highlight reel. whether or not it really said anything about the story at all is pretty ambiguous and the only way to know one way or another is if you spoke japanese. how can you criticize the story when there's nothing to criticize? (oh, and having nothing to criticize doesn't automatically mean there's no story either)
do you speak japanese? cuz as someone who doesn't, it didn't feel like there was much to analyze
Then bless your stars since there really isn't anything to analyze even with the dialogue. I'm not sure if you think that's a good thing but for a game with one of its selling points being the story it isn't for me.
no, you see, there wasn't much to analyze because without understanding the dialogue, it's just a highlight reel. whether or not it really said anything about the story at all is pretty ambiguous and the only way to know one way or another is if you spoke japanese. how can you criticize the story when there's nothing to criticize? (oh, and having nothing to criticize doesn't automatically mean there's no story either)
Wait, what? Is the character interaction that ambiguous to you that you can't understand what's happening? It's pretty straight forward. Samus meets dudes. Something bad is going on. Dudes run into a bunch of baddies and suck at killing things. Repeat until the end.
Now, I know this doesn't include the amazingly deep back story of Samus' past that will be the corner stone of this game but considering this will probably be most of the game it seems about as riveting as the Space Marines in Echoes, which is to say not very.
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Are you kidding? The entire game is almost nothing but cutscenes, which is what makes it great. Oh sure, they're really short, but any time you pick a reply and sit through 30 seconds to a minute of dialogue, that's a cutscene. You're not playing at all, you're just listening to the characters banter, which is what makes that game shine.
So you're really using Planescape as an example of a great cutsceneless game that Metroid needs to emulate? You want lots of dialogue trees in a Metroid game? Make up your mind about what you want from this franchise.
If you see cutscene as reading lots and lots of text dynamically altering according to your dialogue choices, then yes, that would be cutscenes as well; after all, entire walls of text where you do nothing but read aren't unheard of (Nier, anyone?).
However, I define cutscene as something without ANY player input. That's why I made an exception for QTEs, which respond to the player's actions. In Planescape: Torment, you are always giving input- you're choosing answers and developing the story; it's just in the nature of the game that, for your input to be processed, you have to read stuff first. It's an immediate reaction. You can even click to the next text choice immediately! Most cutscenes don't react to any choices I make- I basically just cross an invisible line, which is usually no choice at all.
You see, declaring that to be a cutscene would narrow it down too much. In the same line of argument, the tiniest bit of delay after the cutscene introducing a new colossus in Shadow of the Colossus would be a cutscene as well- after all, I can't do anything for those fractions of a second! Nevermind that it's got a function as some kind of breather, or that it's there for technical reasons.
But fine, let's have it your way: dialogue in general is a cutscene as well. That would make Planescape: Torment one of the cutscene-heaviest games in existence. However, going by that definition, P:M would also be a "cutscene manipulation game". There's a much nicer word for that...
Role-Playing Game.
In short, P:M, as a RPG, has every right of the world to dabble in heavily-manipulated "cutscenes". Videogames are generally not a good medium for RPGs; if you're playing a round of Dungeons & Dragons, the "cutscenes" would be the DM describing things, but wouldn't you agree that such descriptions are pretty much part of, no, the POINT of the game?
And Metroid? That's not a role-playing game! It's an action game! In P:M, I am playing by developing the story, which is fine, because it's an RPG and that's their whole POINT. In Metroid, I am exploring and shooting stuff. Cutscenes take away from that. A cutscene in a RPG would be a scene where you are OUTSIDE the story, where any influence on the story were taken away from you- and that's pretty much only the intro, and the ending movie.
Of course, there are games where these two blend together. Genres aren't strictly defined, after all. You might argue that a game with role-playing elements (and, since videogames can never truly reflect EVERY possible reaction to your decisions, even P:M is no "complete" RPG) makes cutscenes, in part, a reaction to your choices as well. That would make them part of the game- videogames are all about action-reaction! But in most games, these choices are so superficial, trivial or plain bad (QTEs! You can choose between continuing, or immediately failing and starting all over!) that the developers might as well not have bothered. Not to mention that even videogame stories which are part of the game can be horrendously bad.
Dragon Quest 9 has exactly two high quality, pre-rendered scenes: one in the intro that is sort of a hodgepodge of scenes just to be flashy, and a significant one at some point during the story. I remember the one during the story very well because it was completely awesome and unlike anything I saw rendered normally throughout the rest of the game. To have not included it would have definitely made the game slightly and objectively less impressive/awesome.
The same holds true for every other game. There is a phrase commonly uttered with regard to the ending of Wind Waker, which would not have become such a popular image among gamers had it not been present in a cutscene (since you cannot perform this action in-game).
In fact I'd wager that every person who played Super Metroid during its heyday was blown away by the effects shown in the intro and ending. The voice over declaring the galaxy to be at peace, the awesome scenes of Samus' narration and flashbacks, the ship flying in and out of planets as things explode. The game would have been worse without that. To say otherwise, to whine with the rallying cry of "BUT I'M NOT PLAAAAAYING IIIIT," is ridiculously narrow-minded.
Careful, you are starting to sound like you never really played a Metroid game outside of the Prime series.
You're actually naming good examples of cutscenes! Brief, not too distracting, more a reward than actual substance. They're not good, sure. Get someone who knows a lot about movies, and this person will tell you just that: videogame storytelling almost always sucks; and, honestly, when you're 13 years old, everything looks awesome to you. But that is completely insignificant, because it's STILL awesome to the 13-year old in all of us!
Of course I loved the ending to Wind Waker! Awesome finish! I loved that exploding planet in Super Metroid! I even liked the brief cutscenes in Super Mario Sunshine! Of course they're bad, but who cares, they aren't the star of the show, are they? As long as the developers don't go overboard...
...whoops. There's the problem. I mentioned a few posts back that good cutscenes are brief rewards, maybe a little informative, never the focus, because the game is more important. Games completely without cutscenes are rare; but when you look at the really complex games, that are played decades after their release (Starcraft, Streetfighter, Counterstrike, also Super Metroid!), that are mechanically refined to such a degree that their seem to be worlds between beginners and masters, you'll notice they barely have any cutscenes, or they routinely allow them to be skipped. What does that tell you?
Cutscenes are popcorn.
Nobody MINDS popcorn. In fact, I like a little of it, every time I'm having fun. But it shouldn't be so much I can't look at the screen anymore. What's the point of all that popcorn if I throw away half of it anyway?
That's the reason for my theory that games are universally better off with less cutscenes: they're superficial, barely needed, in fact. Awesome, sure. But in the end, all the budget going into their development could've gone into a more refined game as well.
Usually, this is a minor amount; I doubt Demon's Souls would've been any different if that cutscene shortly before the end weren't there. And that's totally fine, because, while being popcorn, even cutscenes can have their uses (brief reward, awesome stuff, etc.etc.etc.). But then you have stuff like Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts. How much do you think they shelled out for cutscenes? Aren't these games infamous for their notorious overuse of BAD, HORRIBLE cutscenes?
I don't think anyone will disagree that cutscenes are, primarily, spectacle. But I think we've reached a stage where people are confusing MOVIE spectacle for game. To quote countless snarky internet guys on Devil May Cry 3:
"Sweet action. Would've been awesome if we got to play that, eh?"
Really.
Bad, but still enjoyable. Of course, if you insist videogame cutscenes can compete with the entire expertise of an industry at least twice as old as videogames...
Also, the voice acting in Super Metroid was horrible. All two lines of it. And nobody cares! Everybody wins!
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
As much as I love the Prime series, I've been wanting a return to what made me love Super Metroid and Zero Missions, and this seems to do just that. Plus I am curious as to how they plan to flesh out Samus' backstory.
Nintendo Network ID - Brainiac_8
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Like Uncharted?
Can't tell- never played Uncharted. What can I say, Darksiders had an awesome horse on his cover, this some dude with perma-stubble... I went with the game that seemed more ridiculous at the time.
Looks like a huge, huge pain in the ass to aim and move at the same time.
nobody here is pretending that cutscenes are movies or even that video games trying to emulate movies is universally a good thing. cut scenes are neither universally bad or universally good in a video game. there's certainly a feeling of disconnect when you see something cool in a cutscene that you can't actually perform in game, but we've actually seen zero indication that that's going to be common in other m.
cut scenes are best used just as you've described, as flavor and rewards and as check points that progress the story. however, what constitutes as "too much" will depend on the person, not on your own opinions. let's take the most egregious example: MGS4. One of the common complaints about that game is the over use of cinematics, the convoluted story, and how it tries to emulate a film more than it should. Using your logic, this should instantly be a huge red flag and indicate that people are going to be turned off by this game. Nope! Wrong answer! 5 million+ sales worldwide and a 93% on gamerankings. Wow, it sure looked like people avoided that sucker! Looks like critics tore that one apart!
If anything, we've seen a steady shift towards the idea that the more cinematic a game is, the better it will be received. People want epic and grandiose games, even if it's ultimately shallow and pedantic upon further inspection. Presentation, even superficial trinkets such as cutscenes, matter greatly in this industry and I don't really see how you could argue otherwise.
You can dislike cutscenes all you want. That's not what I'm arguing against. And reservation for other M due to team ninja's track record is perfectly understandable. But pretending like a shift towards a more cinematic experience is automatically a bad thing for everyone is just presumptuous and narrow minded.
From what I played in the demo, it has an almost too good auto-aim. I just kept button mashing and took out most of the enemies that way.
Steam ID: Good Life
From everything I've read I don't think the game actually has any aiming to worry about, when you shoot samus just aims at whatever enemies are in the general area in front of her.
Nobody knows yet, and there's plenty of room for benefit of the doubt. Maybe a single hit from them will do a lot more damage. Maybe the screen will be filled with projectile attacks. Maybe later enemies will all have defensive moves and require precise timing to beat.
i think we'll have to wait and see for the most part but i recall in some interview the devs stating that this game will be less about accuracy when shooting and more about dodging around a large number of enemies on screen.
but i might just be making that up in my head :P
It's team ninja, the challenge will be avoiding the 20 enemies shooting you from offscreen while the camera looks at a wall.
You're right. Instead, it's suggested we get a lot of whiny Samus, a tragic backstory, lots of struggle against authority and more DEPTH. Worked fine in Fusion, didn't it?
Also, it's not just about cool scenes we don't get to play. It's about the fact that "cinematic gaming" is, in my opinion, actively hurting games, but more on that later...
Are you seriously using gamerankings as an argument? As in, lots of people can't possibly be wrong?
How many people went to see Transformers 2, again?
Sorry, that's no indicator, especially since the videogame press is known to be caught in an interest conflict. In fact, you'll find many, many EXPERIENCED gamers that absolutely loath the cutscene extravaganza of MGS4. (Funny enough, the MGS series is actually really, really clever in many small ways- it just has that weird cutscene fetish, which is like a bad habit that doesn't want to go away...)
Basically, you're conjuring up the wishful thinking of free market enthusiasts. If it's bad, then people won't buy it! Yeah, right...
Funny that you agree with me how cutscenes should be used, calling MGS4's example "egregious", even, but later on argue in favor of "cinematic" games. What exactly is your position?
I didn't argue otherwise. No question, cutscenes DID change the face of gaming dramatically; after all, we got Heavy Rain, the ultimate QTE cutscene, and coincidentally a bad game. I agree!
But I'll tell you what. Why will people remember Halo? Because of the cutscenes? And isn't Kingdom Hearts currently caught up in an incomprehensible mess of a story, presumably because the creators don't have a clue how to tell one? How many more will, at the end of the God of War series, turn around and think: awesome game, but the story has plot holes, no, plot craters?
Shallow design, shallow cutscenes, shallow marketing and merciless pandering to the bases: it can ONLY hurt gaming, because ultimately, we'll get lots of nice graphic demos, but worse games.
You can't argue against my dislike of cutscenes, because I didn't express any. I said I dislike the overuse and emphasis of cutscenes; when they're used poorly, so to speak.
Also, I never mentioned it's a bad thing for everyone. It's a bad thing for those who want truly great games. For those who WANT shallow experiences, it's doubtlessly paradise on the store shelf. Again, the concept of the summer blockbuster works just like that!
But there ARE people who suffer from it. Or rather, industries. "Cinematic" games are also the most expensive, because they need better graphics and better illusions all the time, because otherwise, the spectacle will wear off! That means higher prices, more expensive consoles, much riskier game development, and much more involvement of the marketing department.
This could be a basic conflict. Spectacle versus substance. Or did you think the sole reason why Counterstrike is still around is sheer nerdiness?
Steam ID: Good Life
I think just a Wingo split would work best, the dude has no perspective or sense of what he's saying at all. I mean, what the heck is this?
I never said air was necessary for everyone, I just said that people who want to live need it!
I'm highly skeptical, especially with the general failure across the industry to make good female characters.
Also to anyone pointing out sales/reviews I will point out the following: Transformers 2 made a shitload of money at the box office as does a variety of other crap and Black & White was one of the most highly reviewed games of all time.
Ooook. The suffocating amount of elitism in your post is a red flag telling me I should step out of this debate so I will. However, I would like to clarify a couple of my points that you misunderstood.
1. I'm not sure what you think gameranking is but just in case you didn't know, it's an aggregate review site that pulls its numbers exclusively from published reviews. But if that still doesn't jive well with you due to the impartiality in their selection of review, Metacritic has MGS4 at a 94 adjusted score. Yes, people can be wrong and I didn't mean to imply that high sales = a good product but great reviews combined with great sales is a much greater indicator of quality. Transformers 2 was an awful pile of putrid shit but it achieved what it did in the box office in spite of nearly universally scathing reviews, not in conjunction with them.
2. I've never played MGS4 so I personally can't say anything about that game. What I meant when I referred to it as an "egregious example" was that it's the game most people who don't like cutscenes bring up when talking about the fact that they don't like cutscenes. But if one of the worst examples could garner a 94 metascore, it's clear that either the cutscenes add to the game or at the very most detract very little in the eyes of most gamers. Don't bring up "experienced gamers" because that's a nondefinite term. I could just as easily say that many EXPERIENCED gamers enjoyed the ever loving hell out of every aspect of MGS4 and I'd be just as right as you are. And no, I'm not arguing that excessive cut scenes are universally good or bad but that their merit depends largely on the specific game and the personal taste of any given gamer and that their worth is not necessarily dictated by your own personal preferences.
3. Your opinion of a game (in this case, Heavy Rain, a game I've also never played) is not the only opinion worth noting. Lots of people enjoyed heavy rain. These people aren't suddenly noobs or ignorant pedants just because they disagree with your opinion.
Well, I seem to have gone back on my word and entrenched myself in the discussion even further. In any case, I don't think I have much more to say. In case you were wondering what part of your post turned me off indefinitely, it was this little number:
With that, I bid you good day sir.
Please, I played the first metroid when it came out.
Being an older gamer gives you some distance: you want to talk about new gameplay mechanics, I was blow away by the ability to go LEFT in a side scroller.
In fairness, I never played Fusion, Echoes, or Hunters.
story trailer
There are some upgrade spoilers for those of you that are worried but the entire thing is in japanese so I don't think it gave much of anything else away. The more I see of the later stages of this game, the more excited I get. It looks like the soldiers that you meet in the opening mission are there for a large chunk of the game. I'll have to wait and see whether or not that kills the isolation feeling but the combat and scenery look pretty impressive. I know I've read interviews stating that there will be times where it feels like you're working on a team and others where you feel completely alone and isolated. To what extent of either I guess we'll have to wait and see.
I still haven't seen an environment that didn't look better years ago when Retro did it. But Retro had amazing art direction for the most part (except sort of Torvus Bog).
Very obviously ripping off Hollywood names and a museum, and it sounds super awkward.
Oh, I forgot. Japan.
do you speak japanese? cuz as someone who doesn't, it didn't feel like there was much to analyze
i wonder if people from other cultures feel the same way about how hollywood tends to name non-americans. those are indeed pretty terrible though.
Then bless your stars since there really isn't anything to analyze even with the dialogue. I'm not sure if you think that's a good thing but for a game with one of its selling points being the story it isn't for me.
Well, remember how we always make Japanese characters with names sourced from anime and their culture.. an eye for an eye?
But yes, in general: when you let Japanese developers give a character a full name, it's either good or it seems like they sourced it out of a dictionary generator.
no, you see, there wasn't much to analyze because without understanding the dialogue, it's just a highlight reel. whether or not it really said anything about the story at all is pretty ambiguous and the only way to know one way or another is if you spoke japanese. how can you criticize the story when there's nothing to criticize? (oh, and having nothing to criticize doesn't automatically mean there's no story either)
Wait, what? Is the character interaction that ambiguous to you that you can't understand what's happening? It's pretty straight forward. Samus meets dudes. Something bad is going on. Dudes run into a bunch of baddies and suck at killing things. Repeat until the end.
Now, I know this doesn't include the amazingly deep back story of Samus' past that will be the corner stone of this game but considering this will probably be most of the game it seems about as riveting as the Space Marines in Echoes, which is to say not very.