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SadDirewolf
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First of all, you initiated a political discussion at work..Baaaaaad idea. Then, when it started to get heated, instead of just dropping the subject or turning away, you continued it. And finally, and what bugs me the most, you took something someone said in the heat of the moment, and when to HR with it. Did you honestly feel that threatened? You said it yourself, that Chuck was aware he was upset. The 'threat' sounds more like "yeah..we should stop BEFORE I drop your ass kinda thing.
So yeah...best you can probably do is that you get a warning.
Quite honestly any sort of debate or discussion about a hot issue at work just really isn't worth it.
What state are you in? You can check with your state labor board (or union if you have one) and find out exactly what they can do to you worst case.
I'm going to have to side with you on this one, unpopular or not. I don't believe by what is read that it is the OP's position to tell anyone to go back to their desk and the way the OP described their actions in requesting him to do so suggests that your body language said what your mind was thinking (run on sentance hoooo!)
I fail to see how the OP can not empathize that Chuck was feeling attacked when tensions were obviously running high.
OP, I wish you the best of luck and hope that a warning is all you get. If H.R. doesn't want to deal with this you can probably start brushing up on your resume... from my experiences it is sometimes projected that H.R. would rather eliminate the problem instead of resolve it.
Besides that, raising your voice and going "Are you THREATENING ME?!" almost always makes it look like you're trying to put words in other people's mouths.
Those guys? They don't need to say a word against you or in defense of themselves, because your own admission of what happened paints you up so badly that even if they remained completely neutral, your company would have every reason to penalize or even terminate you, depending on what kind of 'at will' policies are in place. In a zero tolerance setting, you've written your own pink slip.
The fact that you don't get this is disturbing, and because of that, your HR dude is wondering how anti-social you really are, and if you are worth the risk of keeping you around in the workplace. I'd let you back on thin ice with some sort of training seminar. Others may not be so kind.
This is just on your provided statement of course, I don't mean to imply that that's the way things really are, just that you have presented them in that way, and are seemingly unaware that you have done so.
Unless Dan/Mike (or Chuck himself) can say on your behalf that they heard the threat Chuck made, you're boned.
Sorry.
I agree with this, and most of what has been said here today.
This could easily be misinterpreted as a personal attack. Even if you corrected yourself immediately after, the damage was already done. Depending on your wording (and, let's be frank, your wording here is not particularly polite) I would have taken it as an insult.
This is extremely threatening body language. If you had done that to me, I would have interpreted that as a threat even if you had not threatened me verbally.
You raised your voice, which is also inherently threatening. Also, the way to defuse a situation is not to say "Did you just threaten me?" because that puts the other party on the defensive. That is phrased like an accusation, and accusing somebody is only going to make things more heated.
Here's what you should have done:
First and foremost, don't get into lengthy political conversations at work. They're an easy way to make enemies, and they waste time that you should be using to do work.
Second, don't get into lengthy political conversations at work. I don't care if other people started it. Just don't get involved.
Third, instead of saying, "that he was ignorant of certain information and suggested that he do some research," you could have said, "I completely disagree but I don't think we're going to convince each other right now so I don't think we should continue talking about this."
Fourth, do not be the first to stand up during a heated conversation unless your intention is to walk away quietly. That's Human Body Language 101 right there.
Fifth, keep the volume of your voice under control. Don't raise it, even if you feel like you're being threatened.
Finally, if you feel like you're being threatened, don't accuse anybody of threatening you. Try to avoid "you" sentences. Use "I" and "we" sentences instead. You can say, for instance, "I feel very threatened by that remark," or even a simple, "I think we're all getting too riled up and we should calm down."
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Agreed. Standing up to confront an aggressor is not a defensive posture.
It would also be nice to have some context on the specifics of the conversation, and who was talking about what. For example:
OP: "Yeah, I think slavery should be brought back. I hate black people."
Chuck: "The fuck?"
OP: "You look really upset, I think you should go back to your desk"
Chuck: "I am upset. I'm about to drop your ass any second"
You might have said some really inflamitory shit for all we know. There's not really any legal recourse for purposefully instigating a confrontation, then running to HR when someone reacts appropriately. More details would help.
And it would seem to the normal person you ran to tell your side first in hopes that "the first is the truth"
That is the only thing you are in a position to ask for. Hell, go apologize to Chuck. Act like a grown up by righting the wrongs.
Look, if someone had said I "was ignorant of certain information and suggested that he do some research" I'd have taken it as an insult too. Obviously I wasn't there, but from what you said about it being heated, I doubt you had said it in a way like, "easy now, old chap. I must insist that you educate yourself before making such classlesss accusations." And if someone had gotten up at me during a heated argument I'd have taken that as a threat, as well.
And this:
So? If he's looking to get a rise out of you, don't give him the satisfaction.
Edit: You guys are quick.
Also, did you really think he was going to fight you right there? A lot of people say things like that. Hell my middle school classes say that all the time to each other. It's usually just posturing.
xbl - HowYouGetAnts
steam - WeAreAllGeth
I don't see people losing their jobs over this.
On one level I sympathize with you. Office environments can be so sanitized/namby-pamby that no one ever says anything interesting for fear of breaching the code of conduct. On another level, certain topics are not brought up because adults who are crammed in together for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year tend forget how old they are and can descend into childlike behaviors, or worse.
Sounds like you're the odd man out in the majority at your office. You don't have to win every argument, especially if people are going to resort to "I'ma beat you up" over it.
I'd say you kind of ruined any chances of being buds with these guys (you may not have even wanted to) by going to HR to deal with it.
Ah, now it all makes sense. You are the odd man out, if you're a liberal or Dem. My advice for anyone who wants to be successful in an office is to punch in/punch out on time, let the boss always see what great work you do, and don't ruffle people's feathers. You certainly have the right to tell people your opinion, but you don't have the right to remain employed by people who don't like you. If people don't like you, they will follow your every move, and find ways to terminate you. It's sneaky, backhanded shit, but it happens. Coworkers will talk behind backs, and supervisors won't cut you any slack. I've seen it happen to others and I've learned from their mistakes.
Always say nice things about other people, even if they aren't saying them about you.
Seconded. As much as it sucks as far as situations go, you need to be in CYA mode, and attempting to patch things up should help. As others have said so far, this is a teachable moment. Best of luck sorting it out.
To answer your question, no you would not have any recourse if HR finds you "at fault." Whatever the wordage may be.
So lessons for you to take away:
- Do not discuss anything other than "Idol" or the weather while at the office.
- Standing up is threatening, so is asking, "Are you threating me?"
- Please take a breather next time before going to HR. If you were really bothered by Chuck, going to his manager would have been a slightly better choice. Anything reported to HR will be treated as serious shit, whether it is or not, because that's what they do. His manager may have been able to sit you both down and tell you to play nice, but now it's in HR's hands.
Dude...
I can't believe you don't see how those request make you look. It's basically telling HR that you don't understand that what you did was wrong. I makes you look really, really bad.
You might not be able to grasp it, but from your description, you were the bully in this situation. You might say you didn't mean to, but this is how others will look at it;
1)You insulted Chuck
2) You're bigger and taller than him.
3) You stood right up to him and told him to leave.
4)When he said something, you do the "Did you threaten me?" And then ask "Did he threaten me" to someone else.
It's just...wow. Seriously, if you keep this job, you're going to have to figure out correct social norms.
Eh, he actually didn't know what he was talking about, so his phrasing wasn't that inappropriate, given that the other guy started the conversation.
And when you're going back to Chuck, be honest. Tell him you got heated, you fucked up, you didn't want (note the word "want" here--do not say "mean") to cause drama. Going to him, or anyone, with this "I didn't know I didn't know" attitude is going to sound phony and cheap. If you want to make amends, take a shit sandwich and fess up to your end of the scenario.
Just to add something, I probably would not have sent anything else to HR. They've already got more than enough to fire you if they wanted.
Please understand 'intent' is meaningless in the office world, particularly when HR is involved. They are there to protect the 'victim,' and they don't give a shit about what you intended to do. It's only what they decide is against the rules or if you upset someone with your actions/words.
Why did you get up and fill out an HR report? What did you think would happen here? It's him and his two friends against you, the new guy. Did you think his close friends were going to back you up and get their buddy fired?
Forget about not discussing politics at work. If you wouldn't have stood up and accused him of threatening you, before storming off to report it to HR, this never would have gotten this far.
Chuck: "I'm going to drop your ass any second"
You : *I'm much bigger than this guy* "You know what, you're obviously upset. Go sit down before this gets out of hand."
I mean really, you say you're much bigger than the guy. Who do you think HR is going to believe? You, the giant new guy? Or Chuck, the tiny dude who has worked there longer than you with two co-workers to back him up.
It sucks, but next time you should think things through before blowing up like this. Hopefully you don't lose your job over it.
way the modern office is.
I can't say I agree with this interpretation of "drop your ass." Regardless... its always best to diffuse these situations at work.
Also, learn to pick your battles. Workplaces are essentially high school all over again, sad to say.
I can has cheezburger, yes?
Its not even that, you can't ask people in an office to 'pick a side', they've got to work with Chuck (and just as importantly people who like Chuck) as well you. Means they aren't going to be all that enthusiastic when you go "Lets get Chuck fired for some trivial argument that has nothing to do with anyone here!"
Don't think anything less of Mike and Dan for not standing by you for this, there is no way they could have done anything and were right to just try and ignore the whole thing. That is how you diffuse arguments like this.
Have you said anything to them about this, other than the initial incident where you turned to bystanders to ask if they had heard the threat (i.e asking them to come with you to HR, did you say anything to HR about them being there as witnesses)? If so that's another relationship you're going to need to fix fast, acknowledge that you made a mistake and put them in a horrible position and that you just weren't thinking etc.
The generally accepted use of the word 'ignorant' isn't what the OP meant, though, and I think he needs to understand that. Even if you tell someone that they're ignorant of a specific topic, meaning that they just don't have the knowledge the back up their points, they're almost universally going to take that as a put-down. It's just how the word is used most often. It was very bad phrasing.
I do think it's clear that Chuck felt threatened by the OP standing up, though. Him saying 'I'm gonna drop your ass' sounds like a direct response to him feeling threatened.
@gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
Everyone involved was being waaayyyy to over dramatic and this shit got way blown out or proportion...
I don't care how you try to rationalize it, but "I'm about to drop your ass" is just another way to say you are going to knock someone out. There is no way around that. I've never in my life heard someone say that and had it mean anything else.
I'd just do what every other person does in an office, talk to people only as much as necessary about work only unless you are friends with them. (Ex. Hang out, outside of work). I don't think you were wrong personally, and think everyone's being way to over-sensitive. But no doubt HR thinks otherwise, because that's their job, to be PC and everyone's friend. Just take the warning and avoid ol' chucky boy.
Is this just a what if scenario or were you genuinely worried he was going to bring a gun and shoot you?
That's a pretty irrational fear, and if you find yourself thinking these kind of thoughts frequently you might want to talk to a psychologist.