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Should We Invade Honduras?

GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
edited July 2009 in Debate and/or Discourse
Facts:

-Honduras’ democratically-elected president was ousted at gunpoint in a coup de tat orchestrated by the country’s social and political elite and carried out by the military.

-When the president tried to return, the illegitimate regime threatened to arrest him and blocked the airport runways from receiving his plane.

-Hondurans are calling for the international community to reinstate their president and restore due democratic process, by force if necessary.

-Many Latin American countries, including Venezuela, are already mobilizing their armed forces and invoking sanctions to answer the call for democratic restoration.
HondurasFlag4.jpg

With this in mind, can the United States truly afford to stand idly by as a democratic neighbor in our own backyard falls to totalitarianism? What kind of message does that send to the rest of the civilized world when an elected leader can be cast aside at the whims of a powerful few? After the events in Iran, it seems like the forces of democratic progress just keep getting pushed back and now this happens. The time for semantics about whether or not this is even a coup is over. Americans must act before this regime entrenches itself as legal and just when clearly is not. We must depose this budding dictatorship. Obviously no one likes war. I consider myself an avid pacifist but as much as it pains even me to fathom it, we must declare war on Honduras. Discuss.

Glyph on
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Posts

  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue The studying beaver That beaver sure loves studying!Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    What? No. What the fuck?

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  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt (effective against Russian warships) Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    What? No. What the fuck?

    Also, I've never seen an OP that ends with 'Dicuss.' do anything other than suck.

    Gabriel_Pitt on
  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Cornfield? Cornfield.Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Why not? What else are we doing, right?

    Really though? Really? I dont think we've got the bodies, time or money right now to jaunt off to Honduras for a quick little military excursion.

    iTunesIsEvil on
  • AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    What? No. What the fuck?

    Aegis on
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  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    "All right, team. Let's go police the world!"

    Edit - Is it possible to report a poll for awesome, cause that one is.

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  • CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    You are not an "avid pacifist" if you're casually advocating declaring war on a country in our backyard while we are still engaged in conflict with two countries far away in the middle east.

    CptKemzik on
  • CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I don't think you can afford another war right now, sorry.

    Corvus on
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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    CptKemzik wrote: »
    You are not an "avid pacifist" if you're casually advocating declaring war on a country in our backyard while we are still engaged in conflict with two countries far away in the middle east.

    And you're completely ignoring the fact that the ousted President had violated the law in the first place.

    moniker on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    We're already engaged in two other countries. I think we can sit this one out.

    Oh, okay, I guess I can give a better reason, and it applies to Iran as well. America has a history of meddling in the affairs of other countries because we don't like the politics of whoever is in charge (or wants to be in charge), so long as we had something to gain by meddling. This is particularly true in Central and South America, where we alternately propped up dictators or democracies depending on how friendly they were likely to be to us. Us taking an active military role here would be detrimental to our foreign policy aims and would further fuel the distrust for our intentions. Like Iran, we do better to condemn violence and talk up human rights and democracy than posturing and being belligerent.

    Besides, if other Central and South American countries are willing to step up, I think they'll appreciate it if we let them take the lead.

    wwtMask on
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  • CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Also I might be totally wrong on the matter but wasnt there good reason for this guy to be kicked out of the country?

    edit- Ah ok moniker answered my question.

    CptKemzik on
  • Ethan SmithEthan Smith Origin name: Beart4to Arlington, VARegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    'We' is a bit of an open term. There are a great deal of internet users outside the United States, in South Korea, or the Netherlands.

    I for one support the Netherlands getting a new overseas empire.

    Ethan Smith on
  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt (effective against Russian warships) Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Excellent poll is excellent.

    I remember seeing a very apropos political cartoon about the sequence of constitution shredding each side had engaged in as they tried to blame who did it first.

    Gabriel_Pitt on
  • CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Also I think we can all agree that this would be as irrelevant of a campaign to carry out as invading Ireland.

    CptKemzik on
  • SAW776SAW776 Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    CptKemzik wrote: »
    Also I might be totally wrong on the matter but wasnt there good reason for this guy to be kicked out of the country?

    edit- Ah ok moniker answered my question.

    Didn't he only want to put forth a vote to the public on amending their constitution? I wouldn't call that oust-worthy. Especially when it seems his people want him back and its just the Congress/Military that don't like him.

    I could be mis-informed.. but that's all that I heard that he did "wrong".

    SAW776 on
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  • ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Didn't we already? About 25 years ago?

    Been there, done that... gawl.

    Chanus on
    Allegedly a voice of reason.
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    SAW776 wrote: »
    CptKemzik wrote: »
    Also I might be totally wrong on the matter but wasnt there good reason for this guy to be kicked out of the country?

    edit- Ah ok moniker answered my question.

    Didn't he only want to put forth a vote to the public on amending their constitution? I wouldn't call that oust-worthy. Especially when it seems his people want him back and its just the Congress/Military that don't like him.

    I could be mis-informed.. but that's all that I heard that he did "wrong".

    That's what he did. Which happens to be illegal. With the punishment of removal from office.

    You can argue all you want about whether it should be or not, but don't make assumptions on other countries's legal system.

    Phoenix-D on
  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    You do realize this shit happens in Latin America all the fucking time, right? Zalaya is not some kind of clean democratic symbol to be propped up and the people looking to take over are not a "budding dictatorship."

    Read this if you want some more perspective:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/07/opinion/07Marin.html

    tsmvengy on
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  • Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    full scale, unilateral invasion? No, of course not. But if we could get together a coalition of other nearby countries, then I think it would be OK for the US to lend logistical and diplomatic support. Maybe air support also.

    Pi-r8 on
  • SAW776SAW776 Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    SAW776 wrote: »
    CptKemzik wrote: »
    Also I might be totally wrong on the matter but wasnt there good reason for this guy to be kicked out of the country?

    edit- Ah ok moniker answered my question.

    Didn't he only want to put forth a vote to the public on amending their constitution? I wouldn't call that oust-worthy. Especially when it seems his people want him back and its just the Congress/Military that don't like him.

    I could be mis-informed.. but that's all that I heard that he did "wrong".

    That's what he did. Which happens to be illegal. With the punishment of removal from office.

    You can argue all you want about whether it should be or not, but don't make assumptions on other countries's legal system.

    I'm not suggesting we should invade them, I'm just saying that its a bullshit reason to oust a president. "What? He wants to give the people a voice!? Fuck that noise!"

    I'll be glad to make the assumption that that legal system sucks. :P

    SAW776 on
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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    tsmvengy wrote: »
    You do realize this shit happens in Latin America all the fucking time, right?

    Actually it's pretty rare now that the Cold War has been over for awhile.

    moniker on
  • ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    SAW776 wrote: »
    I'm not suggesting we should invade them, I'm just saying that its a bullshit reason to oust a president. "What? He wants to give the people a voice!? Fuck that noise!"

    I'll be glad to make the assumption that that legal system sucks. :P

    Yes, but it's their law. It's stupid, but it is what it is.

    There are better ways to change that than to invade them and blow the fuck out of their hospitals and weddings... I mean military bases.

    Chanus on
    Allegedly a voice of reason.
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    SAW776 wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    SAW776 wrote: »
    CptKemzik wrote: »
    Also I might be totally wrong on the matter but wasnt there good reason for this guy to be kicked out of the country?

    edit- Ah ok moniker answered my question.

    Didn't he only want to put forth a vote to the public on amending their constitution? I wouldn't call that oust-worthy. Especially when it seems his people want him back and its just the Congress/Military that don't like him.

    I could be mis-informed.. but that's all that I heard that he did "wrong".

    That's what he did. Which happens to be illegal. With the punishment of removal from office.

    You can argue all you want about whether it should be or not, but don't make assumptions on other countries's legal system.

    I'm not suggesting we should invade them, I'm just saying that its a bullshit reason to oust a president. "What? He wants to give the people a voice!? Fuck that noise!"

    I'll be glad to make the assumption that that legal system sucks. :P

    And Hugo Chavez amending the Venezuelan Constitution to become a de jure dictator (rather than de facto) was just following the people's will. Though he followed legal channels while this guy actually broke the law.

    moniker on
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    full scale, unilateral invasion? No, of course not. But if we could get together a coalition of other nearby countries, then I think it would be OK for the US to lend logistical and diplomatic support. Maybe air support also.

    Eh, they've got a Nobel Peace Laureate who won it due to his negotiations in Central America acting as the diplomat. Not really sure how Hillary Clinton would be a better fit.

    moniker on
  • QuetzatcoatlQuetzatcoatl Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Violating national sovereignty tends to be a sore point with Latin America.

    Whenever there is political trouble in another country your first thought should not be "Lets Invade Them!"

    It seems the point has been pretty much pounded into the ground by now, but yeah, none of us should invade Honduras.

    Quetzatcoatl on
  • KidDynamiteKidDynamite Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    We're already engaged in two other countries. I think we can sit this one out.

    Oh, okay, I guess I can give a better reason, and it applies to Iran as well. America has a history of meddling in the affairs of other countries because we don't like the politics of whoever is in charge (or wants to be in charge), so long as we had something to gain by meddling. This is particularly true in Central and South America, where we alternately propped up dictators or democracies depending on how friendly they were likely to be to us. Us taking an active military role here would be detrimental to our foreign policy aims and would further fuel the distrust for our intentions. Like Iran, we do better to condemn violence and talk up human rights and democracy than posturing and being belligerent.

    Besides, if other Central and South American countries are willing to step up, I think they'll appreciate it if we let them take the lead.

    I like this answer. Just imagine me typing up something close to this.

    KidDynamite on
  • KungFuKungFu Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Despite the president not being a good guy, he was ousted in an illegal way which is also quite threatening to the rule of law and democracy in Honduras. He should be returned to power and then impeached the normal way if necessary.

    And no, we shouldn't invade.

    KungFu on
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  • DmanDman Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Whenever there is political trouble in another country your first thought should not be "Lets Invade Them!"

    Dman on
  • theclamtheclam Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    KungFu wrote: »
    He should be returned to power and then impeached the normal way if necessary.

    From what I've heard, the Honduran constitution has no way to impeach a president. Since this 'coup' has the support of both the legislature and the military, it's as 'normal' as you're going to get.

    theclam on
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  • SpoonySpoony Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    We should invade simply to give the troops a change of scenery.

    Spoony on
  • DmanDman Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Spoony wrote: »
    We should invade simply to give the troops a change of scenery.

    I hear they can get that by returning home. Just sayin :P

    Dman on
  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    moniker wrote: »
    tsmvengy wrote: »
    You do realize this shit happens in Latin America all the fucking time, right?

    Actually it's pretty rare now that the Cold War has been over for awhile.

    Eh, Ecuador had protests and change of power 4 years ago. Guatemala has had protests over disagreements on political power, same with Bolivia recently.

    My point was this isn't a military coup attempting to set up some kind of dictatorship.

    tsmvengy on
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  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Modernization is great. Democracy is not neccesarily.

    Yar on
  • The Crowing OneThe Crowing One Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    We need to support their democracy! In with the troops!

    Wait... they don't have oil?

    Nevermind.

    The Crowing One on
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  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Dman wrote: »
    Whenever there is political trouble in another country your first thought should not be "Lets Invade Them!"
    Seriously. I mean, we have all these nukes just sitting around gathering dust...

    JihadJesus on
  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Cornfield? Cornfield.Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Oh god, i fail, please ignore this post!



    Look, Yar's down here below me, check his post out!

    :whistle:

    iTunesIsEvil on
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Dman wrote: »
    Whenever there is political trouble in another country your first thought should not be "Lets Invade Them!"
    Seriously. I mean, we have all these nukes just sitting around gathering dust...
    I lollered.

    Yar on
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Yar wrote: »
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Dman wrote: »
    Whenever there is political trouble in another country your first thought should not be "Lets Invade Them!"
    Seriously. I mean, we have all these nukes just sitting around gathering dust...
    I lollered.

    You would.
    So did I.

    moniker on
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited July 2009
    Man, America.

    I'm gonna say no.

    Elki on
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    No, us invading would be pretty much the absolutely worst thing possible, for a number of reasons. We would basically be going back to the bad old days.

    That said, I'm a little tired of how people here keep parroting the opposition's framing as if it's the truth. The Supreme Court of Justice had charged Zelaya with crimes, and was seeking to try him. The problem is when the military (which doesn't like leftists thanks to US meddling) decided that being ordered to arrest Zelaya gave them a chance to execute the Caracas Two-Step. The problem was that deporting Zelaya is clearly against the Honduran Constitution (which is more than can be said about Zelaya's actions,) meaning that by doing this, the military basically violated the Constitution they claimed they were upholding.

    Already, the chinks are starting to form. The SCJ has released the documents regarding the charges against Zelaya, in part to show that the military violated the law of their own accord. There are several Assembly members who are now opposed to the coup. The front isn't nearly as unified as it looks, in large part because people are realizing that it wasn't as painless as they thought it would be. It's also important to note that there is not one single government in the world that supports the coup.

    As for Chavez, I wish people would stop trying to turn him into some sort of Latin American boogieman, and actually debate his stances honestly. I understand why Western business interests hate him, since he's basically told them that the raping of Venezuela is over, but I don't get why the public shares these views...

    Oh, the media. Right.

    Well, if Chavez is a dictator (as someone has said here,) he's done a pretty piss-poor job of being one. He never arrested anyone involved in the 2002 coup - the only punishment that was ever meted out was that several media channels that were involved with the 2002 coup had their broadcast licenses come up for renewal, the government opted not to. He's also eliminated the covernment censorship office. This article does a good job explaining the distorted lens that a lot of us see Chavez through.

    AngelHedgie on
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  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Because the one thing America needs to improve foreign relations now is to keep invading countries where something is happening that you don't like.

    KetBra on
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