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Help save my party! [4E D&D]
deveric
MinneapolisRegistered User regular
MinneapolisRegistered User regular
So here is the long story short, I am running a 4E game with a large group of players (will lay out players below) but my players constantly struggle in the game. Some of them are brand new to paper and pencil RPGing, some are veterans, but I think part of where the issue lies is purely class makeup. I have given them the options of transferring their stats to a new character, new class/race, but I am unsure what else we can do.
I am a D&D insider subscriber, mainly because with such a large group I need to be able to keep track of stuff easier, and using the character creator and encounter creator saves me hours of time. The encounters I have been making are rated 'Too Easy/Easy', and the one today was rated 'Normal' (granted it was against 2 wyrmling dragons) but they struggled through this. I have players using power cards to help out, and figure out what they can/cannot do, since this helps the new players a lot.
Anyways, here is their current class makeup and experience.
Dragonborn Sorc, Playing D&D since AD&D
Drow Cleric, Played D&D on and off since 2nd.
Dwarf Shaman, New to D&D
Eladrin Rogue, New to D&D
Goliath Fighter, New to D&D
Goliath Warden, playing since 3.0
Shifter Druid, playing since 3.5
I myself have been playing on and off since AD&D, but I for the life of me can't figure out what group makeup they should have. The new people want to change their classes (minus the rogue). We are playing in Eberron, and since I have access to the character builder, I have opened up every class/race (with obvious restrictions on special ones (read: Swordmage, Genasi, Kenku, Wilden, etc etc)). Does anyone have suggestions for other classes or really anything else I could/should be using as a DM?
Thanks,
dev|eric
Spoiler here for one of the class changes for sure, spoilered for those that play in my group and read the forums.
I am a D&D insider subscriber, mainly because with such a large group I need to be able to keep track of stuff easier, and using the character creator and encounter creator saves me hours of time. The encounters I have been making are rated 'Too Easy/Easy', and the one today was rated 'Normal' (granted it was against 2 wyrmling dragons) but they struggled through this. I have players using power cards to help out, and figure out what they can/cannot do, since this helps the new players a lot.
Anyways, here is their current class makeup and experience.
Dragonborn Sorc, Playing D&D since AD&D
Drow Cleric, Played D&D on and off since 2nd.
Dwarf Shaman, New to D&D
Eladrin Rogue, New to D&D
Goliath Fighter, New to D&D
Goliath Warden, playing since 3.0
Shifter Druid, playing since 3.5
I myself have been playing on and off since AD&D, but I for the life of me can't figure out what group makeup they should have. The new people want to change their classes (minus the rogue). We are playing in Eberron, and since I have access to the character builder, I have opened up every class/race (with obvious restrictions on special ones (read: Swordmage, Genasi, Kenku, Wilden, etc etc)). Does anyone have suggestions for other classes or really anything else I could/should be using as a DM?
Thanks,
dev|eric
Spoiler here for one of the class changes for sure, spoilered for those that play in my group and read the forums.
Really, you should stop, if you are in my group ASIINA.
No Seriously, stop. I know it's you.
The Goliath Warden will become a Warforged Monk
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We really need to stop almost dying though.
I'm gonna go with my gut reaction and blame Asiina.
Missed this bit. When you're missing players, are all the roles still covered? If you're missing both defenders or leaders, the game could get ugly fast. Also, are you adjusting encounters on the fly to account for actual player numbers?
Yeah I realized I forgot to add that in.
Well, the cleric has always been here, whether physically, or in spirit (IE. someone playing both him and their normal character). Today, for instance, we were only short the druid. Last session, we were short the shaman and druid. And I have been creating the encounters based on a party of 5, so the difficulty should fit that, at least from what it is suggesting on the encounter builder.
It seems just odd to me that a 6-7 person group would struggle on easy-normal encounters for 5 characters of their level. How do the fights usually go down? Is something obviously lacking?
They are, when they remember them. This is why I made power cards for everyone, to help remember they can do more than pounce every round.
It always seems really one sided, if I make a 'Too Easy' encounter, it's over when it starts. If I make an encounter that is considered 'Normal', they almost die.
Case in point, the fought 4 Vampire spawn fleshrippers at level 3 or so. I toned them down to level 3 from 5. They were one person short. The fleshrippers still had their 1 HP. I nearly killed two of them. I know they hurt, but they just couldn't save each other.
I've been doing that, not using certain powers (like in the dragon fight today) to their full extent.
This was part of what I did today, allowing them to slay these dragons allowed them to loot their horde. I guess we will have to see what happens next week with these items, but they are a week or two out from leaving this area they are in now.
No, no, you don't hold back. The leader (cleric or otherwise) uses their abilities to give other characters temporary hp or let them recover some.
They are all mixed mid-heroic, they are now (after today) running between levels 3-5.
I'm just wondering what level you're building for and whether that might be an issue given that not all characters are at the top of that range.
Yeah I've done things like that in the past, but with really only one class that can heal (besides the minor shaman healing), I feel like I'd be leaving them out to get LOLSTOMPED.
I started out everyone with 1d4x1000 exp (as I had done in previous games), and let them go from there. I've been going for middle of the road (prior to today, 3), so starting for next weekend, I'll be going for 4. I think there are 2 of each level or so currently.
Ok, This should be an easy enough suggestion. I'll complete this this week, lots of dings for everyone.
1. Even up the levels.
2. Make sure everybody has the right amount of magic items, including a healing potion.
3. Remind them gently to use their healing.
4. Remember it's supposed to be fun!
Man I was so proud to level up today too, and now you're just handing out the levels.
Also, it is vitally important in 4E that you give the right number of magic items. With so many players, you should expect to be giving someone a magic item just about every encounter. If they're starting at level 3, then they should already have 2 magic items, and if they're level 5, they should have about 4. This is, again, why I'm suggesting you revert back to level 1.
How're your players/NPCs rolling? A string of bad rolls can turn a standard encounter into a near PK.
Yeah, everyone seems to have a rut that they get into for rolling, including myself, which hindens things. But it's not something I would base entirely on bad rolls.
if you rolled them up... bad idea. this can make for some pretty skewed parties.
if you used point buy... i dunno what to tell you. do your players understand that they should at least have a 16 in their primary attribute, if not an 18?
I had that do the 4d6, pick highest three, but no one has bad stats. Their stats are all better than the point buying methods.
I know you've already said that you were going to even out the exp, but this really caught my eye. To other dm's; don't do this. There is a fine balance on what characters can do at each level, especially the early ones, where people are still getting their initial dailies, utility powers, and whatnot.
A 1-2 level discrepancy between the party (again, especially early on) can mean that things that challenge the low end get smoked by the characters on the higher end, and those that challenge the high end risk eating the lower leveled characters alive. I'm sure it's less of an issue later on, but despite characters being rather badass right out of the box in 4th edition, a level 2 character in an encounter meant to challenge the level 4 characters (as an example) is likely going to struggle significantly.
I do suspect that having everyone on the same footing will help matters considerably.
Also, while slogging through the starter levels can seem like a chore, with roughly half your group new to D&D, it might not've been a bad idea to start them all at level 1 and run through something (perhaps a slightly modified Kolbold Keep) to get them to level 2, and let them all get a feel for their characters, roles and the system. Starting them between level 2-4 might have even been counterproductive to this.
Edit: I'm also a huge fan of using the Point Buy system. Rather than using lucky rolls, people get to pick where they are strong and where they are weak, without anyone having a vastly better stat pool than anyone else, but if it works for your group, then fair enough.
Just how much gold are we talking? By the character creation guidelines in the DMG, a level 4 (for example) character should start with a level 5, 4, and 3 item, and gold enough to buy another level 3 item. While this is a considerable amount of wealth compared to the old days where you might've been picking pocket change from kobolds still at this point, stumbling into too vast a sum too quickly or easily might seem to take away a sense of accomplishment (tied in with your comments where you felt that you weren't challenging them, I'm left wondering if the encounters they faced will make them feel this was an earned reward, for example).
I mean no disrespect, but the suggestion to start over at level 1 might be a good one. Clean slate, mistakes of the past left behind, people can stick with their characters or pick new ones, and go from there. Walk before you run, y'know?
(Optional, but helpful) 6. Attributes - 16,14,13,12,11,10
In addition, my DM has stopped using exp and started keeping a loose total so he knows when we should level. That way we are all the same level and he doesn't have to worry about tuning encounters for our group. Plus, he doesn't have to hear the whining and begging about being 100 exp short of the next level. Our group doesn't seem to mind not getting experience points and we, the players and DM, have a good idea about when we are nearing the next level. Plus our DM can adjust when to level our group to be more meaningful, like right after downing the big boss, instead of at random times, like slaying your 132 kobold.
There's stupid things we forget all the time cause many of us are new. Like I had a regen I should have started much earlier than I did, but I wasn't thinking clearly. I also tend to forget to do my saving throws. Those small bits of damage add up.
Honestly, I think making us all the same level will help immensely. It's hard to soak up damage when you're a level or two lower than the thing you're fighting. I know for me the frustration was always with needing to be healed. Bringing us all up to be the same should solve that problem, which was the major one from my point of view.
Bringing us all up to the same level and ensuring that all characters are played each week whether the people are there or not is going to make a big difference I think in how the game goes. I'm looking forward to it.
My party levelled from 1 to 3 and change as a 4 member group across Kobold Keep and most of a friend's campaign. However, the DM was controlling one of the strikers/controllers, and we had a balanced party in terms of roles being covered. We've recently let the DM stop having to play a character, and snagged 2 more players, putting us at a proper Party of Five.
A group of 7 should have, if I'm not mistaken, even better survivability in the face of being a man or woman down for the night. Maybe even 2, but I do imagine that encounters might need a little tweaking, lest an average or challenging encounter prove to be impossible.
Now, if people don't want the hassle of running multiple characters, perhaps you could just keep everyone at the same exp level. Yes, it means people end up earning levels without participating in encounters, but it prevents them from falling behind again, leaving you with the same issues you have now. And if they're away enough, the loss of gold and magic items that I assume they'd miss out on should be penalty enough. But if the need arises, dropping a few extra items to catch someone up into a chest is easy enough.