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Behaving Irrationally
Mim
lemme gobble that weenieRegistered User regular
lemme gobble that weenieRegistered User regular
My best friend of 8 years just told me recently she has a serious, first time crush on a woman. As long as I've known her, she's liked men (albiet they were always married, unfortunately). She has always been skittish about women hitting on her, which I understood because it can be an uncomfortable situation and I was skittish too. We both liked similar things and didn't behave like your "normal" girls. I wore mens clothing for gods sake.
All the things straight women "typically" do (have children, marry, wear dresses) she doesn't, and all the things we liked has some how now all of these combined have become glistening signs that she's gay. Which is odd because I am not gay and there are plenty of straight women who don't want to get married or have kids or wear dresses. She also finds butch lesbians attractive and not just all women in general attractive. Their toned physiques and short hair attract her.
Since she told me this I have been trying to support her. I don't think she's a lesbian, if anything pansexual, but I don't think one lesbian crush a lesbian makes. Either way, despite having other gay friends and being okay with them coming out, supporting gay marriage, being a member of GSA, and all around defending gays when I get the chance, I am having serious problems with her news.
I can't stop crying. If I even think about it my eyes tear up. I feel as though I'm losing her, and like I don't know anything anymore. l've been through this before, with my first boyfriend, and though I am handling this much better, I'm still feeling confusion and in general abandonment over the situation. I can't identify with her anymore and I don't know why. All of my friends connect in someway to each other and she was the last one where we were both on even footing, and now that's gone.
How do I stop this from affecting me? I feel awful thinking about how I feel and not just focusing on her and being there for her, but I can't stop crying and feeling lonelier now more than ever.
TL;DR my friend is possibly a lesbian, and I'm handling it poorly. Help.
Apologies for typos. I'm on my sidekick (thumbs hurt like a mother now)
All the things straight women "typically" do (have children, marry, wear dresses) she doesn't, and all the things we liked has some how now all of these combined have become glistening signs that she's gay. Which is odd because I am not gay and there are plenty of straight women who don't want to get married or have kids or wear dresses. She also finds butch lesbians attractive and not just all women in general attractive. Their toned physiques and short hair attract her.
Since she told me this I have been trying to support her. I don't think she's a lesbian, if anything pansexual, but I don't think one lesbian crush a lesbian makes. Either way, despite having other gay friends and being okay with them coming out, supporting gay marriage, being a member of GSA, and all around defending gays when I get the chance, I am having serious problems with her news.
I can't stop crying. If I even think about it my eyes tear up. I feel as though I'm losing her, and like I don't know anything anymore. l've been through this before, with my first boyfriend, and though I am handling this much better, I'm still feeling confusion and in general abandonment over the situation. I can't identify with her anymore and I don't know why. All of my friends connect in someway to each other and she was the last one where we were both on even footing, and now that's gone.
How do I stop this from affecting me? I feel awful thinking about how I feel and not just focusing on her and being there for her, but I can't stop crying and feeling lonelier now more than ever.
TL;DR my friend is possibly a lesbian, and I'm handling it poorly. Help.
Apologies for typos. I'm on my sidekick (thumbs hurt like a mother now)
BlueSky: thekidwonder Steam: mimspanks (add me then tell me who you are!)
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Also, if it is reminding you of a past event, then you may have not dealt fully with the past event.
I definitely wouldn't feel guilty or anything, but if you keep getting upset about it, talk to your friend or a therapist.
Everyone keeps telling me they saw it coming and that this isn't about me so it shouldn't effect me like it has been doing, but people don't seem to get that I feel like the outside looking in. Almost all of my friends are gay and I'm the lone ranger.
I mean, it's not like she's a different person than what she was before. At the end of the day you should be happy for whatever decisions she takes that makes her happy, long as it's not bringing her harm.
It's not like I've been telling her that I've been crying or how I'm feeling. As far as she does know, I have been nothing but supportive. I have been concerned about her up until yesterday and now I'm thinking "hey, this effects me too" and it does because coming out of the closet isn't just something that effects one person, it effects their families and friends as well, and sometimes it takes a bit more to just be okay with it instantly.
I'm trying to not define her by her sexuality and realize she's the same person, but I don't know how to exactly. I mean, are there steps I can take? I can't just close myself off to how I'm feeling and focus 100% on her.
That was probably irrelevant but I had to get it out.
Honestly, you really need to talk to her about this. You don't need to go into detail about how sad it is making you and how much you've cried. But this seems like something you really need to talk out with her, if you feel you are losing her.
Is this because you're feeling hurt that everyone seemed to know and you, her best friend, didn't? Cause I've had that before with a friend who came out, and it can sting, but realize that coming out is hardest to people close to you.
I'm not your therapist, but maybe you're feeling this way because you figured "hey I can be straight and still act in a gender-neutral way, and so can my friend. This is acceptable because she's doing it too." only to discover that she's actually fulfilling the lesbian stereotype of acting quite masculine, which is more acceptable than acting that way while being straight. To which I'd say, don't define yourself by what other people deem acceptable. It's not about her or your relationship, but you need to be confident enough in your own persona that a change in hers doesn't make you question yours.
She's in Australia and I'm in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Since she's told me this every time I see her this is ALL we talk about because that's what she brings up. She told a friend recently how she met an oh-so-cute guy and she will see where things go, but that if her teacher was single (the woman she has a crush on) she'd know exactly where it was going and she's moved rather quickly from "ew, naked woman" to "yeah, I think I'd have sex with a woman".
This hasn't been exactly a gradual thing either, this has all been happening rather rapidly within the past three months, so I'm undoing eight years of knowledge about her sexuality in three months.
I'm not defining my personality because she's reevaluating her own. I did take offense that she categorized straight women one way and lesbian women the other as if because she didn't fit these stereotypes she must be gay because gay women do not want the same things straight women want, even masculine lesbians. She's learning about gender studies, but has seemingly already pigeon holed straight women and lesbians.
I'm more curious how they saw it before me, but they all based it off of silly things like the way she dressed, or stood or because she wasn't going "OMG HOT MAN" ever 5 minutes.
I guess I'm sad because, on top of feeling like I don't know her, I can't go with her down the same path. Before, we did the same things and looked at it in almost the same light, and now it's a completely different light she's seeing things in and I can't see it. Again, I'm on the outside. I know its hard for people to come out, but I want people to realize that it's hard for the people they come out to sometimes and I don't think it's completely bad. I'm not crying and going "OMG, HOW COULD SHE DO THIS TO ME, WHY ARE YOU GAY YOU DID THIS TO SPITE ME AND MAKE ME QUESTION MYSELF" I'm crying and going "I don't know what's going on anymore, because now we're not the same because we don't view things the same and we have been for the past eight years have been able to do so".
The best I can relate it to is someone being in a couple or a close relationship and you have the same general path but the other person seemingly changes so quickly out of no where that you're like "Wtf" only in this case people are telling me "this doesn't concern you. just focus on her" but how can you not when you've just been blind sided?
How do I talk to her without putting her on the defensive? I don't want her to feel bad or guilty or anything, and I don't plan to tell her about the crying, but how do I go about it exactly?
As weird as this sounds, this WILL change things in our relationship. We had a running gag of "you're such a lesbian" as a joke because we both knew that hey, we weren't gay. Now that she is gay, it's just pointing out the obvious and it loses the humor it once had. I'm not saying it's a bad change, maybe we shouldn't have been doing that in the first place, but its still a change. Apparently I don't handle change well.
But are you sure you are okay with homosexuality? Because you might be telling yourself you are when you really aren't. You keep jumping to say how okay with it you are but then go on to say how much it bothers you.
There is a very high probability that I am way off here and you are just upset that it looks like a friend's life is going off in a different direction from yours.
No, no it wasn't mean. I have been wondering that myself and I gotta say that if that was the case that would be an even BIGGER shock to me than this. I have other gay friends, family members, acquaintances that I am perfectly okay with and I was an active member in my GSA in high school being the only one to actually show up the night we display clubs for incoming freshman and stayed even though I was being stared down by parents because I believed so strongly in that club and it's message. This level of shock has only happened to me twice. The first was with my ex-boyfriend (though it shouldn't have because I did think he was gay before we dated, then we dated so I thought I was wrong, turns out I wasn't) and now this.
I am upset her life is going in a different direction than mine. I thought I was conveying that in my last post, if I wasn't I apologize. Can you point out where I was doing that? Because I was trying to show that in general, on a normal day I'm supportive of the gay community but this that is happening now is so rare for me to have such a reaction and I'm trying to determine why because I had another female friend come out as pansexual and I was okay with it and didn't cry, but with this friend it's completely throwing me for a whirl.
Also you may have said this already, but again, I'm not super lucid right now, but was this crush the only thing that is making you feel like you are losing her or was there a lot of other stuff and this was just one thing you are focusing on right now.
1) Your initial off-hand comment about "going through the same thing" with your ex-boyfriend has now coalesced into explicit recognition that you have had a past, emotionally significant experience that followed a roughly similar vein.
2) You claim that the primary "rational" basis for feeling as you do about your best friend's sexual orientation is that you are "moving in different directions".
If possible, I'd like to tackle each of these directly.
1) It appears that a major source of your emotional distress over your current situation is that you are applying a prior bad experience from a prior event - namely, that your ex-boyfriend was gay. This is not something to be dismissed lightly. Whatever precisely happened (he broke up with you while coming out as being gay, you guys broke up and later on you found out he was gay, et. al.), finding out that you are in a significant emotional relationship with someone who later confesses to fundamentally not be attracted to your entire gender is not an easy thing to handle. It can bring up a lot of issues regarding self-esteem, how you express yourself emotionally, how you relate to others emotionally, or even your own sexual orientation.
I have no doubt that you still carry a lot of emotional scars regarding that event, and that this is affecting how you are reacting to this new event. Human beings work by building analogies and relationships between events. That's how we fundamentally operate on a cognitive level. We create categorical frameworks from past experience, and apply those to new experiences in order to understand and predict life.
In this case, the analogy is false. Significant others are very different from significant friends. They fulfill very different emotional and psychological needs, although they can overlap in many ways. As other people have pointed out, the sexual orientation of your friends really has no bearing on your own life. You should not feel like a change in your friend's sexual orientation should have such a damaging impact on the friendship itself. Granted, friendships are often built off of common interests and perspectives, but that doesn't mean you can't be deep, meaningful friends with people who aren't attracted to the same gender that you are.
2) However, it can be understood that the false analogy in your mind, along with other fears you have implicitly expressed in this thread (the long distance between the two of you), has built into a larger concern that perhaps your friendship is ending. This is fine. Accept that this may be a possibility, and that this is, at the heart of things, your real concern. Not so much that your friend is gay, but that your friend is moving away from you in more ways than one. This happens in life. We all have different circles of people in different stages and different contexts in our lives. That's part of being human.
Rather than focusing on the "gay" aspect, I would recommend that you perhaps try to focus on the friendship as a whole. What are your other, perhaps larger concerns about the relationship? Are you using the recent "coming out" event as an excuse? Or is it really something that you feel will fundamentally alter the friendship? (By the way, unlike others I won't tell you that it is OMGHOMOPHOBIA if you really feel this is the case. Not having the same sexual orientation does affect how you relate to each other, just like coming from different socio-economic backgrounds affect how people relate to one another. The question is a matter of degree, and that is something only you can answer, because regardless of an "objective" analysis, relationships are rarely a matter of purely rational attachment.) If it does concern you, is it a major issue, or is it just "the straw that broke the camel's back"? Do you have other friendships you can rely on? Do these other friendships or social circles (or lack thereof) play a role in how distressed you feel? Beyond sexual orientation, where are the two of you moving towards in life? Etc. etc. etc.
It's difficult for us to honestly assess our own feelings and emotions, particularly with regards to the relationships we build with other people. You are very obviously confused, but I think with some reflection you may come to realize some things that you perhaps only tangentially are willing to recognize. The key is to see them for what they are, accept them, and move forward. Maybe you can get over the whole gay thing. Maybe not. Maybe you can "save" this friendship. Maybe you can't.
This is life.
It's something else about your relationship with her that's giving you problems. Maybe it's the distance, and you just miss her and how close you two were a lot. That's okay and you're allowed, but it doesn't have anything to do with the possibility of her being gay and if you conflate the two you run the risk of pushing her away.
I recommend that you try to figure out what's really bothering you. I don't think it's this. Don't project her sexual orientation over your insecurities about your relationship.
(spoiler'd for possibly offensive, and I don't mean to be, I just want to point out another couple possibilities):
a) In your post you compare yourself to her a lot. You both act the same way and you're straight-as-can-be, so why is she suddenly changing her mind? It's as though you felt a solidarity in being the gay-looking straight women. It was your thing, your statement that you made together, and now she's abandoning you to it to be gay-for-realsies. Your reaction is very understandable in this case, but you should really try to get over it if you can, for your own sake more than anything.
b) Have you, you know, maybe ever had even the tiniest of feelings for her? If you had, and you put them to rest, and suddenly she decides one day that she IS attracted to women after all but she didn't decide that for you, well... that could really hurt, and again it's a very understandable reaction to have. I have reacted this way, and I've watched others react this way in similar situations, because when you like someone, no matter how much or little or how briefly, it really hurts not to be the one. On the off chance that this is the case, I would strongly recommend that you talk to her about it.
In any case, I don't think you're homophobic, so don't worry. I don't think your issue is with her sexuality at all, but rather personal insecurity. If that's what's going on, recognize it for what it is, try to resolve it separately, and don't let it add emotional distance to a very long - and from the sounds of it very close - friendship.
Are you sure you don't have feelings for her?
This reaction isn't actually so different (though a bit stronger) than how I remember feeling a couple times when I was single and a close friend got married. I'm also a not-particularly-feminine woman, and I know how difficult it can be to find a partner when you're "different", even when you're totally happy with who you are.
Having good friends who feel similarly to you can be a huge source of support, and when they partner up, it can feel like you've lost a piece of that friend and that friendship. Again, even for a person with a healthy sense of self-esteem, it can bring up those niggling worries and fears... why am I the one who's left alone? How come it's so hard to find somebody who is that attracted to me the way I am? I bet it feels similar to learn that your friend, who you previously thought would be walking the same path as you were, now has this whole other romantic world open to her. She doesn't have to find a guy who accepts her the way she is if she wants to find a life partner. She's escaped from the world where you're constantly told to wear heels and put on makeup if you want to find a good maaaaaan and have baaaabies, which is what you waaaaant, RIGHT?
I agree with some of the other posters that this is probably more about how you feel about yourself than how you feel about her, although of course you're worried and confused about the future of your friendship... I think that's natural when you have such a close friend and they go through a major life change like that.
I can offer the reassurance that yeah, she's probably talking about her sexuality a lot right now, but it won't be like that forever. Coming out is a very dazing and confusing process, especially if you're coming out to yourself as well as everyone else. I did the same thing, god, 13 years ago now. I was totally boy-crazy as a teenager, and realized at the age of 20 that I was very attracted to women as well as men. The boy-craziness was a great cover to keep me from admitting to myself that I also had major crushes on some of the women in my life. Could be similar with your friend and married men... obsessing over unavailable men is a great safe way to keep from admitting that you like women.
Buddanyway, after coming out I was "soooo very queer" for a number of years, and I talked about it all the fricken time. Now I've settled comfortably into myself and my sexuality, and it's just another part of my life. This pattern is extremely common amongst people who come out, so if you hang on for the ride you can rest assured that your friend will go back to talking a lot more about the things you have in common than about this one difference between you.
Take a deep breath, allow yourself to feel what you're feeling without guilt, then start asking yourself the tough questions that will help you sort out how you're feeling. Good luck and take care!
It doesn't sound like she's being lying to you, it sounds more like she has only just begun to understand certain aspects of herself. She couldn't have shared this knowledge with you before now, because she didn't know herself.
I think the theory that because she was someone who was like me and we were both at one point straight and now she's not is probably it. In high school people thought I was a lesbian or bisexual and sometimes thought I was dating her. We both defended each other when the other wasn't around "No, she's straight as am I" but now it's not like that.
She finds it thrilling she doesn't have to worry what men think about her anymore and that's great all women should feel that way. But she's also connecting that lesbians don't have to worry about the same thing from women, as if only straight women have to worry. I'm feeling a bit pigeon holed again with that line of thinking as well. If that makes any sense, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't, but I have a hard time explaining what I'm feeling so please bear with me.
Heh heh, a utopian view of the gay community is also common amongst the newly-out. She'll find out eventually that there are lesbians who judge you on your looks just like there are straight men who do. And if she decides she's bisexual she'll learn that some gay women simply won't date a bi girl. And that dating a woman can be really freaking hard, especially if she's the kind of woman who is all over the emotional processing of freaking everything and you're not.
At that point when she comes crying to you, you get to be a wonderful and supportive friend while silently feeling validated at the same time.
Her thoughts on gender and sexuality shouldn't isolate you. If the discussion of gender is on the table, you should be able to have a friendly conversation about being happy that shes discovered herself, but that you still feel very true to yourself and your sexuality. Shes discovering why her lifestyle is better for her, and shes going to connect to some lesbians about it. Theres nothing wrong with being different in your views, especially when hers are changing rapidly. Relate on the level that you two have been friends for 8 years and can discuss change, rather than being upset that things are changing.
but, I have been sad when I've realized they were changing. A friend of my made a transition from total nerd to total metro extrovert thespian, and it took us a second to adjust to each others life styles, and to figure out we could still relate. Every major shift in a persons personality can effect friendships, or end it, you never know. As others suggested, I think the grieving is much more about change than it is about sexuality.
Edited to say: I only have 6 friends (boyfriend not included) all gathered over a 10 years and haven't been able to make any since senior year of high school. I've tried to but it's hard.
This. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're anti-gay or anything like that, it happens to a lot of people. It's the same reason that people cry at weddings sometimes. In the words of Marv, "That's the thing with dames, sometimes all they gotta do is let it out and a few buckets later there's no way you'd know."--except I don't think it's particular to "dames". My advice would be to just let it all out, don't overthink it too much, and give yourself some time. There's no need to bring it up to your friend until you've mentally gotten stabilized because you don't want to do anything that you'll regret later.
Seriously. Sometimes stuff changes in your life and even though it isn't necessarily a big deal or sad or anything, it just hits a mental nerve and freaks you out. The best thing to do is to know you're maybe being a bit irrational, let yourself cry/be angry/whatever, and force yourself to just chill and not act until everything has been assimilated. Don't dwell on it too much, try to keep going, and in some time you'll start looking at it without the tears and be more comfortable with everything.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean. But, all my friends, when I met them they were all straight. One by one they realized who they were. So I didn't seek out gay friends, they just found themselves till I found myself on the outskirts looking in.
If a large part of your relationship was a set of shared attitudes and interests, and this new development brings new values and pursuits into her life, you may find your relationship cooling (unless she manages to share her new passions with you, in which case yay you've got common ground again!). Or, once the giddy exploration stage of reevaluating her identity is done, she may be right back at your side, except gay.
It's alright to feel worried and upset, but don't mourn this relationship before it's in the grave.
Did you have a similar reaction before, when some of your other friends came out? (I'm assuming no, but...)
No, the last time I had this much of a reaction was when my first boyfriend ever, came out of the closet a few months after breaking up with me. Wasn't bad enough he broke up with me the week before prom, he tacked on being gay a few months later after sweet talking me into thinking we'd get back together eventually. During that, I did all the questioning of my own sexuality and all that.
Beyond that situation, every friend I've had since then that has come out, I've been fine with them coming out.
Alright. Then I've got nothing else to add. I hope things work out.
So what should I start asking myself?
You might not both be going around oggling hot guys (but then you might) but there is likely still a reason you have been friends for so long that goes beyond your likes and dislikes.
So yeah, the gay community is not this utopia of non-judmental people.
Oh, trust me I know. I just don't know if she knows that. She didn't say women were kinder or anything, but she just mentioned being free from having to worry what men thought about her appearance.
She's had been asking for advice and all that, wondering what she was and what my take on it was. I've been wrong before and just wanted to tell her based on what she's given me I'd say pan or bisexual maybe even just bicurious, but because I've been wrong, I just want to say "lesbian" and be done with it.
I'm doing better with it though, haven't cried and actually got some sleep. I know I still want to be friends with her, it's just taking me some time to get used to this though there isn't a set "this" yet. Despite her thinking "she might be a lesbian" and her mentioning the cute guy, and how she likes him but wants to see where things go and how certain she'd be if this chick was single she'd get with her (I'm not even sure my friend has talked to this girl, she just said the girl eye flirted with her), I'm just at a lost as to what to say to her.
Oh, as mentioned, she has liked guys who were paired up, but she also likes this girl who is paired up. Maybe she just likes taken people...