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Obama and the Mormons
DoctorArch
CurmudgeonRegistered User regular
CurmudgeonRegistered User regular
I wanted to comment on this yesterday, but since the forums were down, it had to wait until today.
From the Salt Lake Tribune:
As noted, this is common practice of the LDS leadership to present the current President's genealogical history to them upon taking office. Good, fine, dandy, but I personally have a problem with Obama giving them the time of day.
For those that do not know, the LDS/Mormon church to this day believes that blacks are descended from the Biblical Cain, and that dark skin is the so-called "curse of Cain." For years the church used this to limit participation amongst its members of African descent. While they have changed the doctrine to allow for full membership for members of African descent, according to church theology, they are still the descendants of Cain. Furthermore, numerous church leaders (who according to their theology, are literal Prophets of God, and when they speak the word is God's and unassailable) have stated terrible things about African people for which there have never been retractions or apologies, including
Politically, there may have been a minuscule gain in performing outreach to a demographic that overwhelmingly votes Republican, but I think from a moral human decency perspective, Obama should have either refused to meet with them, or to have made a public statement regarding the LDS church's very racist history.
Edit: Another thought. After the LDS church's very prominent role in turning back civil rights for homosexuals, Obama would have another, very valid reason to eschew meeting the church.
From the Salt Lake Tribune:
Mormon Church leaders presented President Barack Obama with a detailed family tree in five leather-bound volumes Monday during a private meeting in the Oval Office.
The 30-minute sit-down was the first time Obama has met with Thomas S. Monson, president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Monson was escorted by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, the highest ranking Mormon in the government, and LDS Apostle Dallin Oaks, the chairman of the faith's genealogical committee.
LDS leaders have made a tradition of presenting presidents with genealogical breakdowns, giving similar reports to Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, but none have been as varied as Obama's, whose mother was from Kansas and whose father was from Kenya. Previous ancestral examinations have uncovered Obama's Irish and German lineage as well.
"President Obama's heritage is rich with examples of leadership, sacrifice and service," Monson said. "We were very pleased to research his family history and are honored to present it to him today."
The bound volumes include details about multiple generations of his family going back hundreds of years.
In a brief statement, Obama said he enjoyed meeting the Mormon leaders and appreciated their gift.
"I'm grateful for the genealogical records that they brought with them and am looking forward to reading through the materials with my daughters," he said. "It's something our family will treasure for years to come."
The meeting, arranged by Reid, was closed to the press.
Afterward Reid released a statement that thanked the Mormon leaders for sharing the nearly 14-million member faith's passion for genealogy.
"Recognizing the president and first lady's deep regard for family, I am honored that our church can have any part in documenting their family history," Reid said.
He also noted that Obama and Oaks discussed their interest in the law. Both men taught at the University of Chicago law school. Oaks went on to become a justice on the Utah Supreme Court before resigning to become a Mormon apostle.
While it was the first time Obama met face-to-face with Monson, they have talked on the phone at least once before. Obama called Monson in January 2008 to offer his condolences after then LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley died. At the time, Obama, then a candidate for president, was slated to visit Utah. He canceled out of respect for Hinckley's funeral. Monson succeeded Hinckley as the faith's president.
Monson has had experience with American presidents before, spending nearly an hour with President George W. Bush at the LDS Church Administration Building in Salt Lake City. During the May 2008 meeting, they discussed U.S. foreign policy, Middle East peace, the economy and energy, according to Bush's press secretary Dana Perino.
As noted, this is common practice of the LDS leadership to present the current President's genealogical history to them upon taking office. Good, fine, dandy, but I personally have a problem with Obama giving them the time of day.
For those that do not know, the LDS/Mormon church to this day believes that blacks are descended from the Biblical Cain, and that dark skin is the so-called "curse of Cain." For years the church used this to limit participation amongst its members of African descent. While they have changed the doctrine to allow for full membership for members of African descent, according to church theology, they are still the descendants of Cain. Furthermore, numerous church leaders (who according to their theology, are literal Prophets of God, and when they speak the word is God's and unassailable) have stated terrible things about African people for which there have never been retractions or apologies, including
and"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110)
...they (Africans) who are clean in their lives; who are virtuous; who are honorable...shall come forth-and they may even enter into the celestial kingdom, but when they enter there they enter as servants-to wait upon those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
Politically, there may have been a minuscule gain in performing outreach to a demographic that overwhelmingly votes Republican, but I think from a moral human decency perspective, Obama should have either refused to meet with them, or to have made a public statement regarding the LDS church's very racist history.
Edit: Another thought. After the LDS church's very prominent role in turning back civil rights for homosexuals, Obama would have another, very valid reason to eschew meeting the church.
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Yeah, it is not like they have to believe the word of (their) god.
Mainstream Mormons are about as dedicated and literal as fundamentalist members of other denominations. "Fundamentalist Mormon" is a term reserved for polygamy cultists.
Exactly. I have met many, many Mormons who have defended the racist policies of the church as "right for the time" because that is what God decreed. To question these policies is to question both the church and God himself. This is not faith promoting.
Pretty much this. Snubbing the Mormon church amounts to refusing to recognize the state of Utah.
Speaking of unproductive things to do to the Mormons, does anyone want to post-humously convert dead Mormons to the Church of Satan? (I figure if Mormons can convert dead Jews to Mormonism...)
The Democratic Majority Leader in the Senate is from Utah.
I know we all hate Harry Reid, but he clearly demonstrates that the Democrats have not given up on Utah.
I think it would be much more topical if we posthumously gay married them.
Yep. I was kind of surprised to see the news myself, but it doesn't at all surprise me. President's got to be diplomatic and all that.
He is from Nevada. (OH SNAP!) :P
Oh shit.
My b.
Edit: Oh well in that case the clear answer is to sink Utah into the sea.
More specifically, part of being president is listening to the concerns and positions of all American citizens, weighing these views against each other, and then working with the directly elected representatives of those citizens in order to find common ground as often as possible.
Perhaps "mainstream Mormons" would be less likely to condemn the man as a marked son of Cain if they actually recognized the fact that he's willing to sit down with them and listen to what they have to say and treat them with a little dignity and respect.
This kind of reactionary nonsense is what makes me worry that, 20 years from now, the last "Culture Warriors" won't be right-wing fundamentalists, they'll be angry "liberals" with an unsettled vendetta.
ehhh
maybe in utah
as much as I detest the LDS church they aren't universally fundamentalist by any stretch
well, first: anecdotelol
But even in the godless land of Massachusetts, the local Mormon church was much more central to the lives of the Mormons in my high school than any other church was to any other religious group.
bigoted racist mormons are
Diplomacy is fine and dandy most of the time, but there are some moral cases where being nice and finessing a diplomatic response is nothing more than giving acquiescence. Racism is a moral evil. Take South Africa, for example. It wasn't until countries around the globe stopped giving the Apartheid government carte blanche that meaningful change began to occur. To me, there is no "middle ground" against an evil like racism. If we had been concerned about being diplomatic and cordial to the racists in U.S. history, we would still be struggling to pass civil rights legislation. When a significantly large, homegrown religion in the U.S. still believes blacks to be the spawn of the devil, the President should make an effort to point this out when meeting them.
Another example, when Glenn Beck was "joking" last year over whether or not Obama was the Anti-Christ, people said "Oh that Glenn Beck, he's so crazy." Beck is a Mormon, he was dogwhistling, and it was appalling to see.
edit: besides, the tomes would prove he's a citizen to the birthers! </sarcasm>
Personal satisfaction.
How so?
Racial politics are endemic to the United States political system. If Obama refused to deal with any racist, nothing would get done.
The millions of homosexuals who had their rights stripped in California would disagree with you.
Yeah, when Qingu comes out in favor of acting towards religious people with civility, I think it tells you something.
Because it won't play like that with anyone, and instead will play as "godless liberal snubs religious leaders"
It's not worth the pointless jab at all. It's easier to speak against racism in general than to try and take a stab at it in a specific instance and pray it plays well.
Specifically: what would pointing out the racist history of the mormons gain? What, people might think they're a crazy religion?
He shouldn't give them the time of day not because of their doctrine, but because Mormons gave us Twilight. Unforgivable.
Then, a shot of him lighting a cigar from it's smoldering ashes. Fade to black.
Because that's how reasonable adults run the country.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
This is actually a really good point. The president is everyones president, not just the democrats in the crowd. In fact, that's part of what made Bush so horrible, he was only a president for part of the country. The president was originally supposed to be an impartial mediator between factions of the government, the guy who is above it all. Now, that sounds like a pretty high bar to set for performance there, but I think that's honestly the best way for a president to be. I don't think we'll get that though, but it's nice to see that the President isn't going to snub a sector of the population he is governing on behalf of just because they believe objectionable things. He shouldn't let their racism oppress others, but they still deserve to be heard.
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
that doesn't mean they're fundamentalist
as far as I can tell, a lot of main stream mormons are well aware that their religion is completely batshit. But there's a very strong sense of community and such and they're very into the religion
However, would a "greater good" have been served by pointing out current bigotry? Making the church's struggles (or reluctance) to deal with racism a reference for America's struggle with racism?
It's like the world's biggest LARP, and everybody is a "Lawful-Neutral Human Breeder."
Depending on exactly what Obama said, it would land somewhere between awkward embarrassment and unmitigated disaster.
It is not for the president to chastise any church for its beliefs, past or present.
In the same way, the government ought to be hands-off Iran, whereas private citizens should feel free to help out the reformist protesters.