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I think this summarizes the thread.
Cold hard rationality along the lines of "well, it's a good thing that the relationship ended so I should be happy now" has little place in terms of love and relationships, things driven heavily by unconscious thoughts and uncontrollable feelings. Some people (like myself) use cold hard rationality as a coping mechanism to get out of the really bad feeling quicker. However, not only does that technique not work for everyone, but it's also just a coping mechanism-- it's there to help move past the pain, not mathematically prove to yourself you're an idiot for feeling upset.
I'm sure you guys probably don't care about the play-by-play, but it helps to vent. Of all the nights for my friends to be unavailable, eh? Heh.
Do you have any family or anything that can come over to defuse things?
The other thing is to try and be amicable towards her, which means even if she makes snippy comments at you, let them go. It's not going to help the situation and it's really not worth it, because you're arguing about nothing.
Before you did the counseling, before you made this thread, you knew what you really wanted was out. You spent time, money and effort in a vague attempt to do nothing more than look like you wanted to try, to look like you wanted this to work out so that people might say that you did all you could. It was all a waste, because you haven't actually cared. You say she's done nothing to help this situation; what have you done? Played make-believe for a few weeks? And I just call bullshit.
Say what you want to about my life experience or what I've been through to get to where I am today, but I've been in this situation on both sides and I know responsibility when I see it, and enough of it lies with Amor and his remarkable ability to lie to himself about the effort he's put in recently that I'm not going to be particularly sympathetic when his soon-to-be-ex is a little snippy over his attitude and behavior toward the situation.
My advice to you? Next time you're in a relationship-turned-marriage where you feel the communication is lacking, check your own. Make sure you're listening as well as talking, because from your very own posts it sounds like you had no interest in bothering here.
I wouldn't be too hard on him. The limed is true for 90% of couples who attend marriage counseling. At least one of them has already made up their mind, and is only there so they can feel like they tried.
Hell, it's true of almost everybody who asks for advice. Most people have already made a decision, either consciously or subconsciously, and are only looking for positive confirmation.
Are you trying to excuse his behavior because "the limed is true for 90% of couples who attend marriage counseling?" That's still foolish.
And I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't ask for advice on the premise of being coddled by the forum or my friends, but then again, I tend to be a bit introspective when looking at myself and others. Don't give me this 90% bullshit when it's just a stupid assumption that says something really horrible about a large chunk of humanity.
Second, marriage counseling doesn't exactly have an impressive success rate (I've seen statistics vary wildly, but 50% is the highest I've found and that's being generous). The reasons are many, but essentially lots of couples go into it either thinking it's going to be a magic wand that will save their marriage or they do it as a last-ditch effort, just to pay lip service. It certainly can work, but it requires that you have both a good counselor and that both parties are equally willing to see the relationship succeed. That's quite a bit less common than you might think. The quality of the counselor is a huge variable, as many of them have different objectives in their practices. One might be a "stay together at all costs, fake emotion where there is none until it magically appears" counsellor, while another advocate "do what's best for the both of you and your family". Again, it really all depends on the motivation of the couple and the counselor they're paired with.
Now, I've read a lot of assumptions in this thread, my own included, and while it's easy to lob these stones from up on this pedestal, none of us except SA are actually in his shoes. We really don't know his motivation and it's a bit conceited to think that we do. We can hypothesize, but at the end of the day, a marriage is dying/has died, and I've yet to meet the person who would consider that an entirely positive thing. Could more have been done? Maybe, maybe not. We're outside observers here, we have the best perspective because we're not emotionally invested in this situation as SA and his wife are. We also are only hearing about 25% of the whole story, tops. We haven't heard from his wife, we don't know their history, all we know is what has been written here. It paints a picture, but not a very clear one.
Again, I do believe that SA has a lot to work on but I'm not going to bust on the guy who has the wisdom to end a marriage when the love is gone. I much prefer to see that over the couples (especially those with children, thank goodness that's not the case here) who prefer to flail about in their dying marriage and only end up breeding more contempt and resentment for one another. This will hurt (for BOTH parties, not just the wife), but hopefully both of them will find people who make them happy again.
Good point.
So you told her you wanted a divorce and you are shocked that she is being "snippy" with you? In your head, just how exactly is she supposed to behave?
Yea, for me that is a sign of SA's biggest personal problem and is probably the key to the whole marriage kerfluffle.
Are you (SA) are strict logical thinker and don't really rely on emotions at all? Do you think she is being snippy in order to help the situation, or do you think she is just reacting honestly? Which would you prefer? Why should she be acting any other way?
You were the one who didn't want to fake it like you meant it. Why should she?
Hope it goes as well as it can, Amor. Take it easy for a while, but do keep in mind a divorce is a lengthy process, two years in some states. Usually theres a separation, a filing, and then another year before its final. Let yourself calm down a bit, but hop on laywering up when you're comfortable with being dead certain- you can always change your mind, but you want to be in first. Things will only get hairier once she starts talking with friends and fam about what she deserves to walk away with. Best of luck.
Get recommendations for an attorney, don't just find one on-line. If you have any attorneys in your family ask for a referral from whatever lawyer group they are involved in, don't get a "men's rights" attorney because as I learned to the tune of $8000 advertising yourself as such as akin to saying "snake oil lol".
Be willing to leave a bunch of your shit behind just to get it over with. Some couples will fight for hours over stupid shit to the tune of $1000+ in attorney fees.
Admittedly I don't know what the fight was about, but it seems like maybe she was trying to communicate an issue (as you want her to and as the sessions told her to) and felt like you were ignoring her by trying to go to bed instead of talk. If that's the case, I can understand why this is going the way it is - she felt like she was trying to get better, and like you were ignoring her.
Again, might not be the case depending on what the fight was about, but it seems like a possibility.
Not once have I said the 'd' word. We are separated currently; she is staying with a friend.
But maybe she'll cheerfully hum a tune as she skips out of your life?
See how many books I've read so far in 2010
Uh. To me knowing she has every right to be snippy should lead to some sort of understanding, not "it's not helping the situation any."
Lot's of things don't help the situation in a positive way. Silence doesn't help the situation - and apparently talking doesn't either.
And then think about your own heated words and the things you've said and haven't said lately and realize the control and restraint she is most likely exercising right this very moment so that while all this is going on and her life is coming apart completely she merely comes off as "snippy".
I agree with everything you said except this one part. She gave him an ultimatum and when he didn't meet it, she packed her bags and left. The way I see it, she chose to end it. Not him.
Also, I do think he deserves a little bit of credit for at least feigning the effort to fix the relationship which is more than we can say for his wife.
Thank you.
SA, you're expecting tons more from her than you do from yourself. It's okay if you're sad and angry, but if she's so much as cross you blame her for making the situation worse. Instead of keeping score, you need to understand that nobody involved wants to be, and emotions are going to run a little wild. When my parents got divorced, my entire family said and did some very ugly things. But nobody blamed anyone else, because in a situation like that, we all did the best we could. Was it good? No, I regret a lot of the decisions I made during that time and I know everyone else regrets the decisions they made, too. But we were extremely understanding of it, given the circumstances.
If/when you enter your next relationship, I hope you do so without a scoreboard. I strongly suggest you examine yourself and take a critical look at what happened during this time, and you actually try to fix those problems.
From my reading of SA's post, he told his wife that he saw no positive outcome for their relationship, and she said that if he was sure about that, then she would leave. He re-iterated his position, and she left.
SA seems to have made clear his belief that they had no future as a couple. How is that a case of her issuing an ultimatum?
Not only are we only getting one side of the story, but SA even complained that his wife was "pretending things were okay" after their initial counselling sessions. He expressed resentment that she was trying to "fake it". So I don't think it's fair to judge his wife's efforts.
Beyond that, no one deserves credit for "feigning the effort" to fix a relationship. You deserve credit if you make an honest go of it (I'm just making a point here; I'm not passing judgement on SA).
The Division, Warframe (XB1)
GT: Tanith 6227
I just want to make sure that everyone understands this one point. This was 100% my decision to separate. If it were up to my wife, we'd still be living in the same house. Also, at no point in any of our conversations did I ask, tell, or suggest she be the one to leave. That was entirely her decision.
In this thread, I really appear that I'm simply going thru the motions, and to an extent, I am. Keep in mind I've been dealing with this for many years now, and yes, I realize I really should have pressed harder for changes in the past, but hindsight is 20/20.
It isn't too late to change your course.
but they're listening to every word I say
Actually, there does come a point where it is too late to change things. Based on this thread, I'd say that point has come for this marriage. The only thing I can imagine changing that at this point would be SA missing his wife horribly during the separation and becoming devastated to the point that he changes his mind and wants to work on things. That...seems unlikely though.
What do you expect her to do? Sleep in the same bed when you have told her you don't want to be married to her?
You really need to look at this from her view occasionally as well.
Satans..... hints.....
Sets up situations (maybe not knowing it) to work out in the way that he wants in a way that excludes him of all blame and wrong doing.
It sounds like he is using a very clever web of mind games to distroy a person for no good reason to end a situation he dosent want to be in and feel good about it at the end.
It sounds like what my father did to my mother and me.
It sounds like he can rationalise every thing in a way in which he is flawless, by admiting his flaws as not contribiting to the problem.
It sounds like hes a jerk, maybe he dosent intend to, but I wonder how amazing this whole thing would be with the wifes side of the story.
I can't help but feel like I'm caving, once again...
What do you plan to talk about? Don't just say everything thats been happpening, be prepared with a fucking list of specifics. If you can't honestly apologize for anything... well, I wouldn't even waste your/her time.
Don't do it just because you feel like you're caving. You're setting yourself up to resent her again because you feel like you are being forced somehow into making it work.
You have to want to fix this. You have to recognize that she isn't just a bunch of negative things, there are tons of great things about her that you probably are glossing over because you spend so much time focusing on the bad.
I asked her because we haven't talked in nearly a week. Communication is one of my (many) pitfalls, and I was hoping to try and change that by talking to her. I'm not sure I expected any apologies (from either of us) to occur during this conversation. I was expecting it to be more of another counseling session, sans the counselor. I guess apologies could follow from something like that.
I know, and a week to myself has got me thinking this.
Heir has the right of it and I am really hoping you do too OP.
I hope you're not calling her and setting up dates just because you are lonely.
I hope you get back into that counseling and dig in.
And I really do hope that things work out for the both of you. Good luck.
No, I'm not doing this because I'm lonely. I've had plenty of stuff to do to keep me active while she's been gone. That's not to say I haven't been thinking about her, however, because I definitely have. I think talking will do us both some good.
Be patient and generous, but don't hold this against her. It's for you and her, and there's no score.