Well there are people here trying to argue that a smoker will suffer from higher stress levels than a nonsmoker simply because he smokes.
And just like when I used to smoke if I was out in the field and I needed a smoke and I couldn't think straight because I didn't have a smoke, that would make me less dependable, less reliable and people couldn't count on me to watch their back while they're watching mine, so if they really care about being out there and doing what's right that would impact them.
It's too easy to get cigarettes overseas, especially if you actually leave the wire, but this guy sounds like some POG.
. . . and the last part is there's also lights-out type situations where at night you're not walking around with a flashlight, you're not walking around or driving around with headlights on, you're using NVGs and stuff like that and folks who know they shouldn't smoke somehow still do and I'm telling you they light up the night when they pull that cigarette it's like they have a huge spotlight there where it should be dark and in some cases they can even compromise security by being a smoker.
Yes. At night they practice noise and light discipline, meaning no unnecessary noise and no unnecessary light. You can see the light from the cherry on a cigarette for a good distance, and through a pair of NOD's it looks like a fucking torch in the night.
So no one smokes at night.
Hah Just kidding. There are many ways to smoke without giving away your position, such as: smoking in your vehicle (non HMMWV type), use a gutted magazine to cover the cherry, smoking in your sleeping bag, wait until you're doing SSE in a hajj house to smoke, or if you're in a well lit area, I could go on.
Most people just dip at night though, so it's not really a big deal.
You can pick out the smokers at PT because they'll always be behind the pack, they're never in front of the pack running, they'll always be behind it running and even stop and walk and it's funny but it's true I mean seriously you can pick out the smokers where you work because they are the ones that will complain that they can't do this or that and when it comes time to run they can't run the entire mile and a half without stopping.
This guy's unit must sham out during PT hours or he's just full of shit. It would be near impossible to determine who smokes simply by looking at a squad/section running in formation if their unit has an adequate amount of cardio in their PT plan.
The fact that he called them NVG's instead of NOD's shows that he's probably in a POG unit (which are notorious for weak PT standards). This is an article by REMF's, about REMF's who have no excuse not to indulge every nicotine craving they get.
This isn't Vietnam. They can smoke on the FOB at night after they're done filling out papers in the TOC.
You can pick out the smokers at PT because they'll always be behind the pack, they're never in front of the pack running, they'll always be behind it running and even stop and walk and it's funny but it's true I mean seriously you can pick out the smokers where you work because they are the ones that will complain that they can't do this or that and when it comes time to run they can't run the entire mile and a half without stopping.
This guy's unit must sham out during PT hours or he's just full of shit. It would be near impossible to determine who smokes simply by looking at a squad/section running in formation if their unit has an adequate amount of cardio in their PT plan.
The fact that he called them NVG's instead of NOD's shows that he's probably in a POG unit (which are notorious for weak PT standards). This is an article by REMF's, about REMF's who have no excuse not to indulge every nicotine craving they get.
This isn't Vietnam. They can smoke on the FOB at night after they're done filling out papers in the TOC.
I swear I don't know what units these are where you can pick out smokers by PT score or performance.
Because in my unit, plenty of the 11B's and 19D's smoke, yet can still run the average 63B non-smoker into the ground. And even among the 11B's, it's not always the smokers that lag behind non-smokers...plenty of smokers work their asses off, and can easily dust non-smokers that sit around and do no PT on their own (of which there are plenty).
My old First Sergeant was a smoker. Like a fucking chimney. But at like 40 he could still dust half the 20-year-olds that didn't smoke. Yes, he's an outlier. But while smoking may be an indicator of poor PT performance, it's hardly as conclusive as some make it sound. Again, smoking may well simply be an indicator that somebody doesn't take good care of themselves in general (much as I suspect it is with the "financial issues"), and thus take away a PT dud's cigarettes and he's still not going to spend time in the gym and he's still going to eat poorly.
That guy is just one dude of hundreds considered by a focus-group study of the effects of smoking on soldiers. I just brought it up because it addressed the smoking > stress relationship.
I guess I could go try and find all their data (wonder if Military Medicine is in lexis), but those excerpted pages touch on a bunch of issues raised in this thread.
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it was the smallest on the list but
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That guy is just one dude of hundreds considered by a focus-group study of the effects of smoking on soldiers. I just brought it up because it addressed the smoking > stress relationship.
I guess I could go try and find all their data (wonder if Military Medicine is in lexis), but those excerpted pages touch on a bunch of issues raised in this thread.
Thing is, selecting random REMF's for a focus group is pretty pointless, and most of those guys were obviously REMF's.
If you don't leave the FOB, you'll probably never have to worry about running out of cigarettes.
You'll also never be in a position where you can't smoke a cigarette (except for tower guard and even then you can dip).
Smoking has the potential to negatively affect combat arms MOS's more than anyone else.
One would think a serious study would try for a mix of junior-enlisteds, not just those who spend their time driving a desk.
whatever, I'm beginning to think that there's no data that could be presented that will be taken seriously
You're probably right.
Because the entire concept that cigarettes are killing our Army's physical condition and are even a considerable factor for the stresses the force is currently under is beyond ridiculous.
Recruits and privates getting pencil-whipped through BCT and AIT is probably the biggest reason that when new privates get to their first unit, their first monday run smokes the ever loving shit out of them 75% of the time. Poor PT in AIT that consists of 6 mile airborne-shuffle jogs and hazing sessions disguised as muscle failure is probably a big reason people fail their pushups and situps and can't run.
As far as current stresses go, our spread-thin, no-direction, constant deployment combat rhythm is probably goddamned near the top.
There are much bigger factors (fixable factors) than cigarettes that could address the very reasons these people want cigarettes out of the military. I'd say this smoking ban came about due to social pressure and the whole no-smoking ideals coming across the country moreso than any real, concrete logic about the results of getting rid of tobacco products.
One would think a serious study would try for a mix of junior-enlisteds, not just those who spend their time driving a desk.
whatever, I'm beginning to think that there's no data that could be presented that will be taken seriously
You're probably right.
Because the entire concept that cigarettes are killing our Army's physical condition and are even a considerable factor for the stresses the force is currently under is beyond ridiculous.
Recruits and privates getting pencil-whipped through BCT and AIT is probably the biggest reason that when new privates get to their first unit, their first monday run smokes the ever loving shit out of them 75% of the time. Poor PT in AIT that consists of 6 mile airborne-shuffle jogs and hazing sessions disguised as muscle failure is probably a big reason people fail their pushups and situps and can't run.
As far as current stresses go, our spread-thin, no-direction, constant deployment combat rhythm is probably goddamned near the top.
There are much bigger factors (fixable factors) than cigarettes that could address the very reasons these people want cigarettes out of the military. I'd say this smoking ban came about due to social pressure and the whole no-smoking ideals coming across the country moreso than any real, concrete logic about the results of getting rid of tobacco products.
Well put sir.
The fact that most recruits are coddled through Basic and AIT sets them up for failure more than cigarettes could.
Almost every new guy I've had to deal with from 2007 on has been unable to pass a PT test out of basic, and had serious discipline issues.
The military (or the Army at least) is all about quantity over quality. They're cutting corners everywhere they can, and a ban on cigarettes happens to be one of those corners about to get the axe.
The initial counseling I would be giving all of my new guys would probably be wall to wall counseling if I was still in.
Because the entire concept that cigarettes are killing our Army's physical condition and are even a considerable factor for the stresses the force is currently under is beyond ridiculous.
The number of Rangers or hardcore infantrymen I've known that smoke agrees with you. Soldiers routinely not being able to meet physical standards is, from what I can gather, a relatively new thing. Soldiers smoking is certainly not.
Recruits and privates getting pencil-whipped through BCT and AIT is probably the biggest reason that when new privates get to their first unit, their first monday run smokes the ever loving shit out of them 75% of the time. Poor PT in AIT that consists of 6 mile airborne-shuffle jogs and hazing sessions disguised as muscle failure is probably a big reason people fail their pushups and situps and can't run.
Even when I went through (ten years ago) this was getting bad. Nowadays? I see privates coming out of basic, and unless they were doing OSUT* (at least for our infantrymen, cav scouts, or tankers...we have all three) they're a fucking joke. We're talking guys that show up out of basic and fail their first PT test. Like a month later. How is that even possible?
Maintaining physical fitness takes a lot more than simply not smoking...you can ban that all you want, and the same people that cared about their body little enough to smoke and not try to balance it with additional exercise will still skip the exercise and perform only marginally better.
As far as current stresses go, our spread-thin, no-direction, constant deployment combat rhythm is probably goddamned near the top.
No shit. Alcohol abuse, sleeplessness, over (or under) eating, lack of physical motivation...all of these things are epidemic in the Army right now. All of which are hurting the force (physically) a lot more than smoking. Sure, eliminate smoking. It's easy. And you'll have pulled that one green turd out of a river of shit. Pat yourself on the back.
There are much bigger factors (fixable factors) than cigarettes that could address the very reasons these people want cigarettes out of the military. I'd say this smoking ban came about due to social pressure and the whole no-smoking ideals coming across the country moreso than any real, concrete logic about the results of getting rid of tobacco products.
Pretty much. It's the same smoking ban a lot of people would like to see nationwide, only YAY we can actually do it (eventually) to soldiers. Super! And it might even marginally increase readiness and decrease costs. Bonus!
* - I'll be honest...even OSUT is really only meeting the kind of standard that used to be expected out of BCT/AIT.
Well come on Mcdermott. It's not like it matters what they think. There are all sorts of stupid, horrible rules in the military. Clearly restricting what rights they have as private citizens is irrelevant and how they feel about the matter is completely worthless. Combat readiness. That's what's important. Morale? Pffffft.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited September 2009
Smoking is an easy scapegoat. Nobody in their right mind will say smoking is good for you (the benefits of nicotine, as they exist, are not the same thing as the benefits of smoking), but to say it's the reason 19 year old kids can't run a 2 mile time that I can run at 29 (and I smoke) is pure fucking lunacy.
I wonder if it's the same people who dreamt up the ACU's.
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The SpecialistHappy FaceHappy PlaceRegistered Userregular
edited September 2009
Terrible things happen when an officer needs bullet points on his OER.
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That's pretty much a service-wide things. Air Force EPR's are becoming notorious for being at least partially pencil-whipped. Although from what I hear, they're going to be instituting a program to change that. Whether or not it works...:?
Terrible things happen when an officer needs bullet points on his OER.
Officers are always looking for that golden OER.
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The SpecialistHappy FaceHappy PlaceRegistered Userregular
edited September 2009
Yeah, and I'll wager that a good portion of all the arbitrary stupid shit that soldiers have to deal with is a result of a poorly thought out plan from an officer gunning for a promotion. I mean don't get me wrong, a lot of rules that suck are there for good reason. But there's a lot of rules that really don't do any damn good.
Have any of you guys ever been saved by that stupid suicide prevention card I'm sure you have to keep in your wallet?
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Yeah, and I'll wager that a good portion of all the arbitrary stupid shit that soldiers have to deal with is a result of a poorly thought out plan from an officer gunning for a promotion. I mean don't get me wrong, a lot of rules that suck are there for good reason. But there's a lot of rules that really don't do any damn good.
Have any of you guys ever been saved by that stupid suicide prevention card I'm sure you have to keep in your wallet?
I was an RTO. I could fill threads with stories of dumbass officers fucking shit up.
This is another area the military needs to improve on: training for butterbars. OCS, ROTC, and Westpoint simply aren't enough to prepare someone for leadership.
I was closer to throwing a frag into my squad leaders connex and waiting for him to come running out so I could put two in his face than offing myself. Thankfully he got scoliosis overnight and had to be sent back to the states.
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The SpecialistHappy FaceHappy PlaceRegistered Userregular
edited September 2009
This is a bit off-topic, but after commenting about the suicide card in my wallet, I found some other things in there I didn't realize were still there.
I wasn't combat arms so I don't know how JRTC worked for you guys. I'm assuming you still got casualty cards. You would not believe the amount of shit I caught from my squad when I opened my envelope and pulled this out.
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The SpecialistHappy FaceHappy PlaceRegistered Userregular
Yeah, and I'll wager that a good portion of all the arbitrary stupid shit that soldiers have to deal with is a result of a poorly thought out plan from an officer gunning for a promotion. I mean don't get me wrong, a lot of rules that suck are there for good reason. But there's a lot of rules that really don't do any damn good.
Have any of you guys ever been saved by that stupid suicide prevention card I'm sure you have to keep in your wallet?
I was an RTO. I could fill threads with stories of dumbass officers fucking shit up.
This is another area the military needs to improve on: training for butterbars. OCS, ROTC, and Westpoint simply aren't enough to prepare someone for leadership.
I was closer to throwing a frag into my squad leaders connex and waiting for him to come running out so I could put two in his face than offing myself. Thankfully he got scoliosis overnight and had to be sent back to the states.
There's a pretty huge disconnect between officers and the rest of their units right now. I had a CO in Korea that I saw maybe once or twice (actually probably more than that, but sertainly not enough to memorize much more than the first sergeants name). I guess it's pretty easy to come up with this kind of shit when you have no idea who your unit is.
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deowolfis allowed to do that.Traffic.Registered Userregular
Well come on Mcdermott. It's not like it matters what they think. There are all sorts of stupid, horrible rules in the military. Clearly restricting what rights they have as private citizens is irrelevant and how they feel about the matter is completely worthless. Combat readiness. That's what's important. Morale? Pffffft.
Well come on Mcdermott. It's not like it matters what they think. There are all sorts of stupid, horrible rules in the military. Clearly restricting what rights they have as private citizens is irrelevant and how they feel about the matter is completely worthless. Combat readiness. That's what's important. Morale? Pffffft.
Mor-what now?
He's saying that it would be a travesty is soldiers started thinking that the military command could give them orders.
Well come on Mcdermott. It's not like it matters what they think. There are all sorts of stupid, horrible rules in the military. Clearly restricting what rights they have as private citizens is irrelevant and how they feel about the matter is completely worthless. Combat readiness. That's what's important. Morale? Pffffft.
Mor-what now?
He's saying that it would be a travesty is soldiers started thinking that the military command could give them orders.
Nope. Work on your reading comprehension and maybe look at what people have said. Which is, specifically, the opinions and desires of military personnel are irrelevant when it comes to this matter that every other private citizen has a right to.
And you never, ever explained why the military shouldn't get to curtail every right they want to, from fast food to living off base, for a member's whole career in the name of military readiness.
After all that's what matters, right? And please, make a real post instead of some post with incendiary, terrible logic.
Well come on Mcdermott. It's not like it matters what they think. There are all sorts of stupid, horrible rules in the military. Clearly restricting what rights they have as private citizens is irrelevant and how they feel about the matter is completely worthless. Combat readiness. That's what's important. Morale? Pffffft.
Mor-what now?
He's saying that it would be a travesty is soldiers started thinking that the military command could give them orders.
Yes, there's certainly no difference between issuing orders because something needs to be done and doing so simply because you have the authority and it would make you feel like you were really accomplishing something.
No difference at all.
This country needs a fucking draft. Badly.
EDIT: Also, there will always be tradeoffs that reduce combat readiness in the name of morale. Always. In fact, every decision to improve readiness carries with it the risk of lowering morale, and any such decision should include a lengthy consideration of the magnitude of the respective losses and gains. What we're suggesting here is that neither the brass/suits at the Pentagon nor...well, your ass are really bothering. You're largely seeing marginal gains in one area and the ability to legally realize them, and calling it a day.
Well come on Mcdermott. It's not like it matters what they think. There are all sorts of stupid, horrible rules in the military. Clearly restricting what rights they have as private citizens is irrelevant and how they feel about the matter is completely worthless. Combat readiness. That's what's important. Morale? Pffffft.
Mor-what now?
He's saying that it would be a travesty is soldiers started thinking that the military command could give them orders.
Nope. Work on your reading comprehension and maybe look at what people have said. Which is, specifically, the opinions and desires of military personnel are irrelevant when it comes to this matter that every other private citizen has a right to.
And you never, ever explained why the military shouldn't get to curtail every right they want to, from fast food to living off base, for a member's whole career in the name of military readiness.
After all that's what matters, right? And please, make a real post instead of some post with incendiary, terrible logic.
The elimination of smoking causing an increase in combat readiness was in the premise of your statement.
Now, do you have any evidence that a smoking ban would cause a breakdown in the organization of people who can be court martialed for not showing up when called?
The elimination of smoking causing an increase in combat readiness was in the premise of your statement.
The elimination of a lot of things would increase combat readiness was the premise of my statement. Address that. Don't ask other questions, address that and stop wiggling around it.
Why should the military not severely curtail the rights of soldiers in the name of combat readiness? Why should the be allowed to eat fast food, live off base, drink excessively, not have a curfew, etc? Why should they be allowed to do those things when they are a detriment to military readiness? None of those things are necessary. None of them provide any benefit to the military other than happy service members.
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The SpecialistHappy FaceHappy PlaceRegistered Userregular
Well come on Mcdermott. It's not like it matters what they think. There are all sorts of stupid, horrible rules in the military. Clearly restricting what rights they have as private citizens is irrelevant and how they feel about the matter is completely worthless. Combat readiness. That's what's important. Morale? Pffffft.
Mor-what now?
He's saying that it would be a travesty is soldiers started thinking that the military command could give them orders.
Nope. Work on your reading comprehension and maybe look at what people have said. Which is, specifically, the opinions and desires of military personnel are irrelevant when it comes to this matter that every other private citizen has a right to.
And you never, ever explained why the military shouldn't get to curtail every right they want to, from fast food to living off base, for a member's whole career in the name of military readiness.
After all that's what matters, right? And please, make a real post instead of some post with incendiary, terrible logic.
The elimination of smoking causing an increase in combat readiness was in the premise of your statement.
Now, do you have any evidence that a smoking ban would cause a breakdown in the organization of people who can be court martialed for not showing up when called?
You seem to think that breakdown in organization and/or complete loss of discipline is the only possible result of poor morale. I stated earlier that poor morale will affect a unit LONG before it ever gets that bad. You'll start seeing accountability problems, excessive off-duty drinking, failed PT tests, incessant muttering about how shitty the unit has gotten lately, generally complacent attitudes. I'm not saying that soldiers will just start drinking heavily and cursing at officers because all of a sudden they can't smoke. It's a sliding scale and morale is already shitty, so why throw more shit onto the pile?
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You seem to think that breakdown in organization and/or complete loss of discipline is the only possible result of poor morale. I stated earlier that poor morale will affect a unit LONG before it ever gets that bad. You'll start seeing accountability problems, excessive off-duty drinking, failed PT tests, incessant muttering about how shitty the unit has gotten lately, generally complacent attitudes. I'm not saying that soldiers will just start drinking heavily and cursing at officers because all of a sudden they can't smoke. It's a sliding scale and morale is already shitty, so why throw more shit onto the pile?
And I'll note that morale may well be shitty 20 years from now, even assuming we're out of Iraqistan. And that morale is never so great that soldiers will be leaping at the idea of new and interesting intrusions into their life. A fair portion of people who were getting out back in 2000 were getting out because of the invasive and restrictive military lifestyle...making it worse will, at a minimum, always wind up costing cold hard dollars in retention bonuses. If nothing else.
The fact that most recruits are coddled through Basic and AIT sets them up for failure more than cigarettes could.
Almost every new guy I've had to deal with from 2007 on has been unable to pass a PT test out of basic, and had serious discipline issues.
They aren't able to get through high school without a gold star for showing up, why would you expect more out of them once they got out of school?
It's not an Army problem. It's a world-wide problem, in every social strata higher than subsistence farmer. We're in for some hard times once the old people leave. I'm not shitting you. The offspring of the baby boomers are the biggest set of pussies ever to walk this earth, and their children aren't reversing that trend. I'm amazed that it's been allowed to go this far.
And they don't shut up about how smart they are and how much they don't need anyone's help... all the while begging for validation and saying they were never told what to do. It's goddamn crazy. And it's every country. US? Check. UK? Check. Japan? Check. China? Check. India? Check. It's only the South Americans and Africans who aren't whining incessantly. Must be something to do with them seeing different stars.
I wouldn't be so certain. Oh, sure, it might solve the armed forces' need for warm bodies and actual faces, but speaking from experience, if you think morale problems are bad now, just wait till you start dragging boys out of the seniormost classes of high school or McDonalds.
(Note: This is a figure of speech--you could have experience in being drafted, for all I know.)
When I was mobilized, I (and everyone I knew who wasn't a [strike]loser[/strike] volunteer) basically hated our officers (all of them), giggled sophomoricly whenever they got canned or arrested for drug possession or embezzling or other corruption, and emphatically denied we were soldiers whenever we could. On leave, we claimed we were immigrant laborers, in a temporary employment program by the government, or if that didn't work, minor felons. You know, respectable professions.
I'm guessing those are bad things. And anything that moves the US Armed Forces in that direction, I want to say, would also be bad?
The fact that most recruits are coddled through Basic and AIT sets them up for failure more than cigarettes could.
Almost every new guy I've had to deal with from 2007 on has been unable to pass a PT test out of basic, and had serious discipline issues.
They aren't able to get through high school without a gold star for showing up, why would you expect more out of them once they got out of school?
It's not an Army problem. It's a world-wide problem, in every social strata higher than subsistence farmer. We're in for some hard times once the old people leave. I'm not shitting you. The offspring of the baby boomers are the biggest set of pussies ever to walk this earth, and their children aren't reversing that trend. I'm amazed that it's been allowed to go this far.
And they don't shut up about how smart they are and how much they don't need anyone's help... all the while begging for validation and saying they were never told what to do. It's goddamn crazy. And it's every country. US? Check. UK? Check. Japan? Check. China? Check. India? Check. It's only the South Americans and Africans who aren't whining incessantly. Must be something to do with them seeing different stars.
Everyone says "Basic was harder when I went through." and they're usually right.
I was expecting to have my ass beat in basic when I joined and I was surprised when I was only yelled at.
The "Kinder Gentler Army (military)" is a joke. War is always going to be shitty whether or not we have Burger King or huge PX's or beds to sleep in, and babying a new private (or cadet/butterbar) will only set him up for failure once he gets overseas.
The main purpose of basic is to mentally prepare someone for the military. The fact that more and more new guys aren't ready for the military after basic is a sign that it's too easy.
I wouldn't be so certain. Oh, sure, it might solve the armed forces' need for warm bodies and actual faces, but speaking from experience, if you think morale problems are bad now, just wait till you start dragging boys out of the seniormost classes of high school or McDonalds.
(Note: This is a figure of speech--you could have experience in being drafted, for all I know.)
When I was mobilized, I (and everyone I knew who wasn't a [strike]loser[/strike] volunteer) basically hated our officers (all of them), giggled sophomoricly whenever they got canned or arrested for drug possession or embezzling or other corruption, and emphatically denied we were soldiers whenever we could. On leave, we claimed we were immigrant laborers, in a temporary employment program by the government, or if that didn't work, minor felons. You know, respectable professions.
I'm guessing those are bad things. And anything that moves the US Armed Forces in that direction, I want to say, would also be bad?
How would that work? I don't see it. Especially after Vietnam.
"Before your conscription, is there anything that will prevent you from doing serving in the Armed Forces?"
"The moment you put a gun in my hand I will put it in my mouth and fucking squeeze."
I simply do not understand how cigarettes affect "combat readiness". I mean, maybe I've got some misconceptions here but when I hear that phrase I imagine that it means that the military (or rather, its members) is ready to perform whatever function has been assigned to it when ordered to do so, up to and including combat situations.
IIANM the military has exhaustively documented and highly standardized measures of performance for every single task under its umbrella, and those who do not meet these standards are either told to do so, penalized for not doing so, or discharged.
And the obvious thing - cigarette smokers have been performing military duties since tobacco smoking became commonplace, just like all other segments of society. As far as I know, every single military on Earth allows smokers in their ranks. If our military ever loses a skirmish, battle or war it will have nothing to do with whether or not the soldiers smoked - it's because of bad tactics or equipment or discipline or training or whatever. It just seems absurd.
I wouldn't be so certain. Oh, sure, it might solve the armed forces' need for warm bodies and actual faces, but speaking from experience, if you think morale problems are bad now, just wait till you start dragging boys out of the seniormost classes of high school or McDonalds.
(Note: This is a figure of speech--you could have experience in being drafted, for all I know.)
When I was mobilized, I (and everyone I knew who wasn't a [strike]loser[/strike] volunteer) basically hated our officers (all of them), giggled sophomoricly whenever they got canned or arrested for drug possession or embezzling or other corruption, and emphatically denied we were soldiers whenever we could. On leave, we claimed we were immigrant laborers, in a temporary employment program by the government, or if that didn't work, minor felons. You know, respectable professions.
I'm guessing those are bad things. And anything that moves the US Armed Forces in that direction, I want to say, would also be bad?
How would that work? I don't see it. Especially after Vietnam.
"Before your conscription, is there anything that will prevent you from doing serving in the Armed Forces?"
"The moment you put a gun in my hand I will put it in my mouth and fucking squeeze."
"GTFO."
Damn. I half-wonder if this excuse would have worked back when.
Then again, knowing the review board, they probably would have said "Prove it". Better a few nervous video game nerds and service industry employees blow their brains out than the entire system collapse.
Can't say I'd pity someone that blew their brains out to avoid a draft.
No, I'd probably laugh.
Given that the KMT, for a fairly short while back in the 'good ol' days' used to quite happily blow the brains out of people who avoided the draft, I can see the interesting dichotomy. Then again, actually getting a gun would be very difficult. It would probably involve hurling yourself off a tall apartment.
Then again, given that there are so many ways to dodge the system, it would probably seem unnecessary. Claiming you depressed and extremely unstable probably wouldn't get you dropped. Starving yourself for two weeks in advance, though.....
I wouldn't be so certain. Oh, sure, it might solve the armed forces' need for warm bodies and actual faces, but speaking from experience, if you think morale problems are bad now, just wait till you start dragging boys out of the seniormost classes of high school or McDonalds.
(Note: This is a figure of speech--you could have experience in being drafted, for all I know.)
When I was mobilized, I (and everyone I knew who wasn't a [strike]loser[/strike] volunteer) basically hated our officers (all of them), giggled sophomoricly whenever they got canned or arrested for drug possession or embezzling or other corruption, and emphatically denied we were soldiers whenever we could. On leave, we claimed we were immigrant laborers, in a temporary employment program by the government, or if that didn't work, minor felons. You know, respectable professions.
I'm guessing those are bad things. And anything that moves the US Armed Forces in that direction, I want to say, would also be bad?
Oh, I'm not suggesting a draft to fill the ranks or improve combat effectiveness.
I'm suggesting a draft so that when people talk about implementing bullshit policies in the military they actually know what the fuck they're talking about. I think a couple/few years spent in the barracks would open some eyes something fierce.
I agree it would be a total kick in the dick to the force, as far as effectiveness and morale goes. Well, maybe...I'm still not entirely convinced that a conscript on his first tour would be worse than a burned out volunteer on his fourth. I'm more talking about making military policy (in general, from warmaking to new bullshit restrictions on the daily lives of servicemembers) something more than an abstract concept to some motherfuckers.
I wouldn't be so certain. Oh, sure, it might solve the armed forces' need for warm bodies and actual faces, but speaking from experience, if you think morale problems are bad now, just wait till you start dragging boys out of the seniormost classes of high school or McDonalds.
(Note: This is a figure of speech--you could have experience in being drafted, for all I know.)
When I was mobilized, I (and everyone I knew who wasn't a [strike]loser[/strike] volunteer) basically hated our officers (all of them), giggled sophomoricly whenever they got canned or arrested for drug possession or embezzling or other corruption, and emphatically denied we were soldiers whenever we could. On leave, we claimed we were immigrant laborers, in a temporary employment program by the government, or if that didn't work, minor felons. You know, respectable professions.
I'm guessing those are bad things. And anything that moves the US Armed Forces in that direction, I want to say, would also be bad?
Oh, I'm not suggesting a draft to fill the ranks or improve combat effectiveness.
I'm suggesting a draft so that when people talk about implementing bullshit policies in the military they actually know what the fuck they're talking about. I think a couple/few years spent in the barracks would open some eyes something fierce
I agree it would be a total kick in the dick to the force, as far as effectiveness and morale goes. Well, maybe...I'm still not entirely convinced that a conscript on his first tour would be worse than a burned out volunteer on his fourth. I'm more talking about making military policy (in general, from warmaking to new bullshit restrictions on the daily lives of servicemembers) something more than an abstract concept to some motherfuckers.
It might remove some of the flavor for war as a whole (not necessarily specific wars) that exists among some Americans.
How did the quote go? "It is good war is so horrible, else we might grow fond of it?" I think we're a little too fond of war, but that's just my theory. Maybe I'm actually just horribly disconnected from culture on this subject.
It might remove some of the flavor for war as a whole (not necessarily specific wars) that exists among some Americans.
How did the quote go? "It is good war is so horrible, else we might grow fond of it?" I think we're a little too fond of war, but that's just my theory. Maybe I'm actually just horribly disconnected from culture on this subject.
We had a draft in Vietnam. That didn't keep us out of that clusterfuck. It may have gotten us out of it more quickly, though...so there's that. But honestly, I don't see that much of a gain on that front to be had.
Still, I think it would make discussions of military policy and living conditions a lot less abstract for the average Philosophy major. Which would be a plus.
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Well there are people here trying to argue that a smoker will suffer from higher stress levels than a nonsmoker simply because he smokes.
It's too easy to get cigarettes overseas, especially if you actually leave the wire, but this guy sounds like some POG.
Yes. At night they practice noise and light discipline, meaning no unnecessary noise and no unnecessary light. You can see the light from the cherry on a cigarette for a good distance, and through a pair of NOD's it looks like a fucking torch in the night.
So no one smokes at night.
Hah Just kidding. There are many ways to smoke without giving away your position, such as: smoking in your vehicle (non HMMWV type), use a gutted magazine to cover the cherry, smoking in your sleeping bag, wait until you're doing SSE in a hajj house to smoke, or if you're in a well lit area, I could go on.
Most people just dip at night though, so it's not really a big deal.
This guy's unit must sham out during PT hours or he's just full of shit. It would be near impossible to determine who smokes simply by looking at a squad/section running in formation if their unit has an adequate amount of cardio in their PT plan.
The fact that he called them NVG's instead of NOD's shows that he's probably in a POG unit (which are notorious for weak PT standards). This is an article by REMF's, about REMF's who have no excuse not to indulge every nicotine craving they get.
This isn't Vietnam. They can smoke on the FOB at night after they're done filling out papers in the TOC.
I swear I don't know what units these are where you can pick out smokers by PT score or performance.
Because in my unit, plenty of the 11B's and 19D's smoke, yet can still run the average 63B non-smoker into the ground. And even among the 11B's, it's not always the smokers that lag behind non-smokers...plenty of smokers work their asses off, and can easily dust non-smokers that sit around and do no PT on their own (of which there are plenty).
My old First Sergeant was a smoker. Like a fucking chimney. But at like 40 he could still dust half the 20-year-olds that didn't smoke. Yes, he's an outlier. But while smoking may be an indicator of poor PT performance, it's hardly as conclusive as some make it sound. Again, smoking may well simply be an indicator that somebody doesn't take good care of themselves in general (much as I suspect it is with the "financial issues"), and thus take away a PT dud's cigarettes and he's still not going to spend time in the gym and he's still going to eat poorly.
Causation, correlation, all that.
I guess I could go try and find all their data (wonder if Military Medicine is in lexis), but those excerpted pages touch on a bunch of issues raised in this thread.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Thing is, selecting random REMF's for a focus group is pretty pointless, and most of those guys were obviously REMF's.
If you don't leave the FOB, you'll probably never have to worry about running out of cigarettes.
You'll also never be in a position where you can't smoke a cigarette (except for tower guard and even then you can dip).
Smoking has the potential to negatively affect combat arms MOS's more than anyone else.
Even then it's a non issue.
whatever, I'm beginning to think that there's no data that could be presented that will be taken seriously
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
You're probably right.
Because the entire concept that cigarettes are killing our Army's physical condition and are even a considerable factor for the stresses the force is currently under is beyond ridiculous.
Recruits and privates getting pencil-whipped through BCT and AIT is probably the biggest reason that when new privates get to their first unit, their first monday run smokes the ever loving shit out of them 75% of the time. Poor PT in AIT that consists of 6 mile airborne-shuffle jogs and hazing sessions disguised as muscle failure is probably a big reason people fail their pushups and situps and can't run.
As far as current stresses go, our spread-thin, no-direction, constant deployment combat rhythm is probably goddamned near the top.
There are much bigger factors (fixable factors) than cigarettes that could address the very reasons these people want cigarettes out of the military. I'd say this smoking ban came about due to social pressure and the whole no-smoking ideals coming across the country moreso than any real, concrete logic about the results of getting rid of tobacco products.
Well put sir.
The fact that most recruits are coddled through Basic and AIT sets them up for failure more than cigarettes could.
Almost every new guy I've had to deal with from 2007 on has been unable to pass a PT test out of basic, and had serious discipline issues.
The military (or the Army at least) is all about quantity over quality. They're cutting corners everywhere they can, and a ban on cigarettes happens to be one of those corners about to get the axe.
The initial counseling I would be giving all of my new guys would probably be wall to wall counseling if I was still in.
The number of Rangers or hardcore infantrymen I've known that smoke agrees with you. Soldiers routinely not being able to meet physical standards is, from what I can gather, a relatively new thing. Soldiers smoking is certainly not.
Even when I went through (ten years ago) this was getting bad. Nowadays? I see privates coming out of basic, and unless they were doing OSUT* (at least for our infantrymen, cav scouts, or tankers...we have all three) they're a fucking joke. We're talking guys that show up out of basic and fail their first PT test. Like a month later. How is that even possible?
Maintaining physical fitness takes a lot more than simply not smoking...you can ban that all you want, and the same people that cared about their body little enough to smoke and not try to balance it with additional exercise will still skip the exercise and perform only marginally better.
No shit. Alcohol abuse, sleeplessness, over (or under) eating, lack of physical motivation...all of these things are epidemic in the Army right now. All of which are hurting the force (physically) a lot more than smoking. Sure, eliminate smoking. It's easy. And you'll have pulled that one green turd out of a river of shit. Pat yourself on the back.
Pretty much. It's the same smoking ban a lot of people would like to see nationwide, only YAY we can actually do it (eventually) to soldiers. Super! And it might even marginally increase readiness and decrease costs. Bonus!
* - I'll be honest...even OSUT is really only meeting the kind of standard that used to be expected out of BCT/AIT.
I wonder if it's the same people who dreamt up the ACU's.
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Officers are always looking for that golden OER.
Have any of you guys ever been saved by that stupid suicide prevention card I'm sure you have to keep in your wallet?
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I was an RTO. I could fill threads with stories of dumbass officers fucking shit up.
This is another area the military needs to improve on: training for butterbars. OCS, ROTC, and Westpoint simply aren't enough to prepare someone for leadership.
I was closer to throwing a frag into my squad leaders connex and waiting for him to come running out so I could put two in his face than offing myself. Thankfully he got scoliosis overnight and had to be sent back to the states.
I wasn't combat arms so I don't know how JRTC worked for you guys. I'm assuming you still got casualty cards. You would not believe the amount of shit I caught from my squad when I opened my envelope and pulled this out.
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There's a pretty huge disconnect between officers and the rest of their units right now. I had a CO in Korea that I saw maybe once or twice (actually probably more than that, but sertainly not enough to memorize much more than the first sergeants name). I guess it's pretty easy to come up with this kind of shit when you have no idea who your unit is.
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Mor-what now?
I question your use of the word partially. I'd say all of them have lash marks somewhere.
He's saying that it would be a travesty is soldiers started thinking that the military command could give them orders.
And you never, ever explained why the military shouldn't get to curtail every right they want to, from fast food to living off base, for a member's whole career in the name of military readiness.
After all that's what matters, right? And please, make a real post instead of some post with incendiary, terrible logic.
Yes, there's certainly no difference between issuing orders because something needs to be done and doing so simply because you have the authority and it would make you feel like you were really accomplishing something.
No difference at all.
This country needs a fucking draft. Badly.
EDIT: Also, there will always be tradeoffs that reduce combat readiness in the name of morale. Always. In fact, every decision to improve readiness carries with it the risk of lowering morale, and any such decision should include a lengthy consideration of the magnitude of the respective losses and gains. What we're suggesting here is that neither the brass/suits at the Pentagon nor...well, your ass are really bothering. You're largely seeing marginal gains in one area and the ability to legally realize them, and calling it a day.
The elimination of smoking causing an increase in combat readiness was in the premise of your statement.
Now, do you have any evidence that a smoking ban would cause a breakdown in the organization of people who can be court martialed for not showing up when called?
Why should the military not severely curtail the rights of soldiers in the name of combat readiness? Why should the be allowed to eat fast food, live off base, drink excessively, not have a curfew, etc? Why should they be allowed to do those things when they are a detriment to military readiness? None of those things are necessary. None of them provide any benefit to the military other than happy service members.
You seem to think that breakdown in organization and/or complete loss of discipline is the only possible result of poor morale. I stated earlier that poor morale will affect a unit LONG before it ever gets that bad. You'll start seeing accountability problems, excessive off-duty drinking, failed PT tests, incessant muttering about how shitty the unit has gotten lately, generally complacent attitudes. I'm not saying that soldiers will just start drinking heavily and cursing at officers because all of a sudden they can't smoke. It's a sliding scale and morale is already shitty, so why throw more shit onto the pile?
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And I'll note that morale may well be shitty 20 years from now, even assuming we're out of Iraqistan. And that morale is never so great that soldiers will be leaping at the idea of new and interesting intrusions into their life. A fair portion of people who were getting out back in 2000 were getting out because of the invasive and restrictive military lifestyle...making it worse will, at a minimum, always wind up costing cold hard dollars in retention bonuses. If nothing else.
It's not an Army problem. It's a world-wide problem, in every social strata higher than subsistence farmer. We're in for some hard times once the old people leave. I'm not shitting you. The offspring of the baby boomers are the biggest set of pussies ever to walk this earth, and their children aren't reversing that trend. I'm amazed that it's been allowed to go this far.
And they don't shut up about how smart they are and how much they don't need anyone's help... all the while begging for validation and saying they were never told what to do. It's goddamn crazy. And it's every country. US? Check. UK? Check. Japan? Check. China? Check. India? Check. It's only the South Americans and Africans who aren't whining incessantly. Must be something to do with them seeing different stars.
I wouldn't be so certain. Oh, sure, it might solve the armed forces' need for warm bodies and actual faces, but speaking from experience, if you think morale problems are bad now, just wait till you start dragging boys out of the seniormost classes of high school or McDonalds.
(Note: This is a figure of speech--you could have experience in being drafted, for all I know.)
When I was mobilized, I (and everyone I knew who wasn't a [strike]loser[/strike] volunteer) basically hated our officers (all of them), giggled sophomoricly whenever they got canned or arrested for drug possession or embezzling or other corruption, and emphatically denied we were soldiers whenever we could. On leave, we claimed we were immigrant laborers, in a temporary employment program by the government, or if that didn't work, minor felons. You know, respectable professions.
I'm guessing those are bad things. And anything that moves the US Armed Forces in that direction, I want to say, would also be bad?
Everyone says "Basic was harder when I went through." and they're usually right.
I was expecting to have my ass beat in basic when I joined and I was surprised when I was only yelled at.
The "Kinder Gentler Army (military)" is a joke. War is always going to be shitty whether or not we have Burger King or huge PX's or beds to sleep in, and babying a new private (or cadet/butterbar) will only set him up for failure once he gets overseas.
The main purpose of basic is to mentally prepare someone for the military. The fact that more and more new guys aren't ready for the military after basic is a sign that it's too easy.
How would that work? I don't see it. Especially after Vietnam.
"Before your conscription, is there anything that will prevent you from doing serving in the Armed Forces?"
"The moment you put a gun in my hand I will put it in my mouth and fucking squeeze."
"GTFO."
IIANM the military has exhaustively documented and highly standardized measures of performance for every single task under its umbrella, and those who do not meet these standards are either told to do so, penalized for not doing so, or discharged.
And the obvious thing - cigarette smokers have been performing military duties since tobacco smoking became commonplace, just like all other segments of society. As far as I know, every single military on Earth allows smokers in their ranks. If our military ever loses a skirmish, battle or war it will have nothing to do with whether or not the soldiers smoked - it's because of bad tactics or equipment or discipline or training or whatever. It just seems absurd.
Assuming mcd is talking about a peacetime mandatory service 'draft' a la several other western countries, a noncombat option seems likely.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Damn. I half-wonder if this excuse would have worked back when.
Then again, knowing the review board, they probably would have said "Prove it". Better a few nervous video game nerds and service industry employees blow their brains out than the entire system collapse.
No, I'd probably laugh.
Given that the KMT, for a fairly short while back in the 'good ol' days' used to quite happily blow the brains out of people who avoided the draft, I can see the interesting dichotomy. Then again, actually getting a gun would be very difficult. It would probably involve hurling yourself off a tall apartment.
Then again, given that there are so many ways to dodge the system, it would probably seem unnecessary. Claiming you depressed and extremely unstable probably wouldn't get you dropped. Starving yourself for two weeks in advance, though.....
Oh, I'm not suggesting a draft to fill the ranks or improve combat effectiveness.
I'm suggesting a draft so that when people talk about implementing bullshit policies in the military they actually know what the fuck they're talking about. I think a couple/few years spent in the barracks would open some eyes something fierce.
I agree it would be a total kick in the dick to the force, as far as effectiveness and morale goes. Well, maybe...I'm still not entirely convinced that a conscript on his first tour would be worse than a burned out volunteer on his fourth. I'm more talking about making military policy (in general, from warmaking to new bullshit restrictions on the daily lives of servicemembers) something more than an abstract concept to some motherfuckers.
It might remove some of the flavor for war as a whole (not necessarily specific wars) that exists among some Americans.
How did the quote go? "It is good war is so horrible, else we might grow fond of it?" I think we're a little too fond of war, but that's just my theory. Maybe I'm actually just horribly disconnected from culture on this subject.
We had a draft in Vietnam. That didn't keep us out of that clusterfuck. It may have gotten us out of it more quickly, though...so there's that. But honestly, I don't see that much of a gain on that front to be had.
Still, I think it would make discussions of military policy and living conditions a lot less abstract for the average Philosophy major. Which would be a plus.
If it was economically feasible, I'd agree.
But with over 3 million students graduating each year... I just can't see the Military being able to double it's force size.