[WoW][Paladin] More seals than the Burlington Coat Factory.

Dhalphir

Warriors can do the same thing with their rotation. I have Shield Slam on Q, Devastate/HS macro on mousewheel up and Revenge/Heroic Strike macro on mousewheel down. Movement fights aren't a problem for me at all to maintain full rotation.

And as nice as Shield Bash is, its not that useful. The main times I used it was to charge a caster in a pack of mobs, Thunderclap, Shield Bash the caster and drag the whole pack to where I wanted it. A paladin can just Avenger's Shield and make the caster come to him.

Tofystedeth

Dhalphir wrote: »

Also Divinity is fucking retarded as any spec.

I take it in the retarded prot healing spec for vezax. Which I only used the first time we downed him. Then he got nerfed, so I probably don't need it again. Which is a shame kind of. It's so ridiculous to drop 12k flash of lights.

Cokebotle

Dhalphir wrote: »

Warriors can do the same thing with their rotation. I have Shield Slam on Q, Devastate/HS macro on mousewheel up and Revenge/Heroic Strike macro on mousewheel down. Movement fights aren't a problem for me at all to maintain full rotation.

And as nice as Shield Bash is, its not that useful. The main times I used it was to charge a caster in a pack of mobs, Thunderclap, Shield Bash the caster and drag the whole pack to where I wanted it. A paladin can just Avenger's Shield and make the caster come to him.

Yeah, but you have procs to handle, right? Can't really bind those, and I find having my 9 second abilities on 2 and my 6 second ones on 3, it makes movement a whole lot easier, to me. I have all of my abilities actually on my bars too, for trash and when I don't want to be lazy.

But to each their own. Oh, and having a charge ability is nice >.<

Dhalphir

Only the one proc, and with that proc being bound for Q its not exactly hard to reach while moving.

and most warriors have some sort of combat text mod that pops up SHIELD SLAM in huge letters right in their face when it procs.

Zephyranthes91

Nobody wrote: »

Dhalphir wrote: »

As a TBC paladin I would have agreed with you about the interrupt but after a year tanking progression raiding on a warrior I can tell you that there isn't all that much use for an interrupt as a tank in raiding. I just don't find myself using it that much. Probably the only time it gives me a noticeable advantage is on Auraiya because I can Berserker Rage the fear and interrupt the cast she does.

Oh yeah, that reminds me.

Fuckkkk I forgot how gay it was to not have a fear break fuckk.
I did Utgarde Pinnacle heroic last night and those final packs with the guys who fear was BULLSHIT

I put it down to me being stubborn :P

And yes, not having a fear break (well, one that doesn't put DP on forbearance) sucks.

EDIT: Going back over the history of this arguement, I can see where the problems came up:

The SoTP build cannot lose Imp DS, because it needs the two points to go lower in the tree. If it loses points from anywhere, it'd be maybe shifting one point from Imp Might, freeing up the other point, and losing a point from SoTP OR losing a point from Redoubt. Neither of which is really an ideal situation.

I wish maintankadin was up, because I do believe they go into much deeper detail as far as SoTP vs 53/18, and I want to say that I remember the consensus being that 5/5 SoTP was about the same threat as 1/5 Conviction and 3/3 Crusade (at least in T7 and T9 environments).

Crusade wins out on Demons, Undead, Humanoid, and Elemental by a tiny bit. SotP wins on everything else by a little bit and is only slightly behind Crusade for the D.U.H.E mobs. I think Theck's matlab has the math for it on maintankadin.

Cokebotle

Dhalphir wrote: »

Only the one proc, and with that proc being bound for Q its not exactly hard to reach while moving.

and most warriors have some sort of combat text mod that pops up SHIELD SLAM in huge letters right in their face when it procs.

Ah, ok. I know nothing of warrior tanks.

Speaking of combat text mods, is there a good one for pallies/priests? Like, when our Art of War procs, or when Penance is off cooldown?

Dhalphir

MSBT can pretty much fulfil any need for any class.

captaink

I was missing the 20s HoJ tonight on Jaraxxus. I didn't have any DPS helping when they were off killing the demon ladies.

Dhalphir

you don't have a rogue dedicated to kicking that? I'm the one who tanks Fel Fireball and I don't have to worry about interrupts there. I mean every once in a while when someone calls that they're going to miss an interrupt, its nice as a warrior to be able to say "its cool, I've got it" but ideally those mistakes shouldn't happen.

I do think there should be a talent in deep Prot that takes HoJ off the GCD though. Having the interrupt not be on the GCD is kind of insanely awesome.

captaink

Dhalphir wrote: »

you don't have a rogue dedicated to kicking that? I'm the one who tanks Fel Fireball and I don't have to worry about interrupts there. I mean every once in a while when someone calls that they're going to miss an interrupt, its nice as a warrior to be able to say "its cool, I've got it" but ideally those mistakes shouldn't happen.

I do think there should be a talent in deep Prot that takes HoJ off the GCD though. Having the interrupt not be on the GCD is kind of insanely awesome.

No rogues tonight. This was our 1 new main + 9 alts C list run.

Gormok will forever be the first raid boss I ever tanked.

Nobody

Zephyranthes91 wrote: »

Nobody wrote: »

Dhalphir wrote: »

As a TBC paladin I would have agreed with you about the interrupt but after a year tanking progression raiding on a warrior I can tell you that there isn't all that much use for an interrupt as a tank in raiding. I just don't find myself using it that much. Probably the only time it gives me a noticeable advantage is on Auraiya because I can Berserker Rage the fear and interrupt the cast she does.

Oh yeah, that reminds me.

Fuckkkk I forgot how gay it was to not have a fear break fuckk.
I did Utgarde Pinnacle heroic last night and those final packs with the guys who fear was BULLSHIT

I put it down to me being stubborn :P

And yes, not having a fear break (well, one that doesn't put DP on forbearance) sucks.

EDIT: Going back over the history of this arguement, I can see where the problems came up:

The SoTP build cannot lose Imp DS, because it needs the two points to go lower in the tree. If it loses points from anywhere, it'd be maybe shifting one point from Imp Might, freeing up the other point, and losing a point from SoTP OR losing a point from Redoubt. Neither of which is really an ideal situation.

I wish maintankadin was up, because I do believe they go into much deeper detail as far as SoTP vs 53/18, and I want to say that I remember the consensus being that 5/5 SoTP was about the same threat as 1/5 Conviction and 3/3 Crusade (at least in T7 and T9 environments).

Crusade wins out on Demons, Undead, Humanoid, and Elemental by a tiny bit. SotP wins on everything else by a little bit and is only slightly behind Crusade for the D.U.H.E mobs. I think Theck's matlab has the math for it on maintankadin.

Right, in T8 it wins out by a little bit, but in T7 and T9 53/18 wins out. Unfortunately maintankadin has been down the last couple of days or I would have gone to look for the thread.

EDIT: It's back up, but the links aren't working well, still from what I've read what I wrote above is correct. Consensus seems to be that the gain from SotP is somewhat neglible, so I'm sticking with the 53/18 build since it gains more in T9 and has vindication :P

Zephyranthes91

You know what.....












Vindication is for noobs.....





and your Mom.
>=P

forty

Dhalphir wrote: »

Having now seen both sides of the paladin and warrior tanking, I can honestly say that Blizz has both in a great position. I never felt underpowered tanking on either of them, They each excelled at different things. On my paladin, its nice being able to lay a consecrate down as prepared threat for AOE, rather than having to rely on hitting Thunderclap at the right time. its also nice having good sustained AOE threat rather than just big spikes when Shockwave is available. Its nice having Avenger's Shield, its a great tool for pulling as well as picking things up, makes gathering mobs and having them where I want them very easy. Having a 2min 50% cooldown baseline is way better than a 40% 2min cooldown that consumes two talent points and a glyph to do so. The paladin one uses talent points too but they are in a talent you'd take anyway. I must admit that I'd gotten out of the habit of using wings for leadup threat, so I won't comment on having that. I also prefer mana as a resource to rage. Blessing of Sanctuary means that keeping my mana up isn't an issue if I'm not taking much damage, as long as I'm being attacked.

On the other side of the coin, my warrior has many advantages too. Stunning mobs with Shockwave and Concussion Blow allows me to control the incoming damage if my healer gets CC'd or something like that, then I can pop Shield Block for a ton of AOE damage reduction. I can zoom all over the place with Charge, Intercept, and Intervene. I have a fear break which is incredibly handy. The rotation is more fun to execute. I don't like the rage mechanic much once overgeared, because you end up with not much to do things with.

I also feel slightly squishier on my paladin than my warrior, though that is probably more due to being in full Ulduar HM gear on my warrior (BiS pre-ToC) and being in a hodgepodge of heroic 5man ToC gear and badge gear on my paladin.

OK, but how do they compare for tanking raid bosses, TEH ONLY THING THAT MATTERS EVER?

MagicPrime

forty wrote: »

Dhalphir wrote: »

Having now seen both sides of the paladin and warrior tanking, I can honestly say that Blizz has both in a great position. I never felt underpowered tanking on either of them, They each excelled at different things. On my paladin, its nice being able to lay a consecrate down as prepared threat for AOE, rather than having to rely on hitting Thunderclap at the right time. its also nice having good sustained AOE threat rather than just big spikes when Shockwave is available. Its nice having Avenger's Shield, its a great tool for pulling as well as picking things up, makes gathering mobs and having them where I want them very easy. Having a 2min 50% cooldown baseline is way better than a 40% 2min cooldown that consumes two talent points and a glyph to do so. The paladin one uses talent points too but they are in a talent you'd take anyway. I must admit that I'd gotten out of the habit of using wings for leadup threat, so I won't comment on having that. I also prefer mana as a resource to rage. Blessing of Sanctuary means that keeping my mana up isn't an issue if I'm not taking much damage, as long as I'm being attacked.

On the other side of the coin, my warrior has many advantages too. Stunning mobs with Shockwave and Concussion Blow allows me to control the incoming damage if my healer gets CC'd or something like that, then I can pop Shield Block for a ton of AOE damage reduction. I can zoom all over the place with Charge, Intercept, and Intervene. I have a fear break which is incredibly handy. The rotation is more fun to execute. I don't like the rage mechanic much once overgeared, because you end up with not much to do things with.

I also feel slightly squishier on my paladin than my warrior, though that is probably more due to being in full Ulduar HM gear on my warrior (BiS pre-ToC) and being in a hodgepodge of heroic 5man ToC gear and badge gear on my paladin.

OK, but how do they compare for tanking raid bosses, TEH ONLY THING THAT MATTERS EVER?

I don't think anyone can question the survivability of a Paladin. The Lay on Hands = "Oh Shit Button" has saved many boss fights during our raids.

mturalon

I can think of a number of bosses where LoH and Bubble have enabled me to kill the boss while the rest of the dead watched on cheering.

Joshmvii

Having now raid tanked on both a Paladin and a Warrior, they're pretty equivalent in my opinion. Right now Paladins have a little edge given equal gear/skill because their threat tends to be a bit higher, and Ardent Defender is a tad on the OP side at the moment. I like tanking on my Warrior a ton more than on my Paladin though.

Dhalphir

forty wrote: »

Dhalphir wrote: »

Having now seen both sides of the paladin and warrior tanking, I can honestly say that Blizz has both in a great position. I never felt underpowered tanking on either of them, They each excelled at different things. On my paladin, its nice being able to lay a consecrate down as prepared threat for AOE, rather than having to rely on hitting Thunderclap at the right time. its also nice having good sustained AOE threat rather than just big spikes when Shockwave is available. Its nice having Avenger's Shield, its a great tool for pulling as well as picking things up, makes gathering mobs and having them where I want them very easy. Having a 2min 50% cooldown baseline is way better than a 40% 2min cooldown that consumes two talent points and a glyph to do so. The paladin one uses talent points too but they are in a talent you'd take anyway. I must admit that I'd gotten out of the habit of using wings for leadup threat, so I won't comment on having that. I also prefer mana as a resource to rage. Blessing of Sanctuary means that keeping my mana up isn't an issue if I'm not taking much damage, as long as I'm being attacked.

On the other side of the coin, my warrior has many advantages too. Stunning mobs with Shockwave and Concussion Blow allows me to control the incoming damage if my healer gets CC'd or something like that, then I can pop Shield Block for a ton of AOE damage reduction. I can zoom all over the place with Charge, Intercept, and Intervene. I have a fear break which is incredibly handy. The rotation is more fun to execute. I don't like the rage mechanic much once overgeared, because you end up with not much to do things with.

I also feel slightly squishier on my paladin than my warrior, though that is probably more due to being in full Ulduar HM gear on my warrior (BiS pre-ToC) and being in a hodgepodge of heroic 5man ToC gear and badge gear on my paladin.

OK, but how do they compare for tanking raid bosses, TEH ONLY THING THAT MATTERS EVER?

Haven't tanked any raids on my paladin yet. Though I think that they will still be mostly equal, just a little different.

Basren Dragonsnack

Dammit yall are gonna make me roll a Warrior to try out that side of tanking.

I guess it was only a matter of time, I've played the other 3....

Dhalphir

Coming from someone who went from a TBC paladin to a Wrath warrior to a Wrath paladin alt, here's what you'll see on your first few level 80 tank experiences

1) Fear break. This is fucking awesome.

2) Holy stuns Batman. Conc Blow, Shockwave.

3) Shield Bash yes

4) yay Shield Slam procs!

5) Shield Block is awesome.

6) Warbringer is so awesome that I can't even explain it until you see it for yourself

Here's what you'll miss

1) Mana is better than rage for most situations. This can be subjective.

2) sustained AOE threat

3) Better group buffs

4) A rotation.

forty

7) Spell reflect is fun when it works.

Dhalphir

I didn't mention that because it so rarely does.

But it is fun to tank Mimiron's head and the base simultaneously.

forty

Eh, in most heroics there's at least some trash that it's usable on. I didn't say it's that important, but it is fun. And of course there's the staple example of the spiders in Old Kingdom that cast the rapebolt.

Dhalphir

which you can reflect for double that damage and kill them in two reflected casts.

Saban

According to wow-heroes my Paladin is 20 odd points higher than my warrior for prot now.

My kingdom for some fucking heroic chains.

Brainleech

I enjoy tanking on my warrior far more than my paladin but then my paladin often gets the back seat for death knight tanking :rotate:

Hamurabi

Saban wrote: »

According to wow-heroes my Paladin is 20 odd points higher than my warrior for prot now.

My kingdom for some fucking heroic chains.

It's too bad I don't play much anymore these days. I Dual Spec Prot/Holy on the pally, and I just need 20 more Badgen for my T8.5 Prot helm.

Saban

too busy being fat in some other game?

Hamurabi

You need to stop that. >_<

But no, busy with school + work.

Saban

Now that i have PoJ in my build, i can ditch titanium weapon chain.

Using Red Sword of Courage atm and can't see myself replacing it soon unless i get lucky in hToC.

Blade Ward or Blood Draining? I personally like Blood draining.

MagicPrime

Saban wrote: »

Now that i have PoJ in my build, i can ditch titanium weapon chain.

Using Red Sword of Courage atm and can't see myself replacing it soon unless i get lucky in hToC.

Blade Ward or Blood Draining? I personally like Blood draining.

I get a ton of Blade Ward procs.

Saban

Does the blade ward damage proc add threat?

Nobody

Saban wrote: »

Does the blade ward damage proc add threat?

I tried out blade ward for a bit, but it never excited me. It may be better now that they balanced out parry rating, but I personally went with blood draining on my tanking weapon.

MagicPrime

Saban wrote: »

Does the blade ward damage proc add threat?

It's not Holy Damage, so your RD doesn't buff the threat.

But if one enchant is your make or break about keeping threat on a boss, you have serious other issues.

I like the Blade Warding for the extra boost of avoidance I get from time to time.

Saban

Single target threat hasnt been an issue for me yet.

Dying on the other hand.

Zephyranthes91

Righteous Fury also buffs threat from physical damage as well now.

MagicPrime

Saban wrote: »

Single target threat hasnt been an issue for me yet.

Dying on the other hand.

I have heard stories of the Blood Draining proc messing up Argent Defender when its pops its heal when you get low health.

Zephyranthes91 wrote: »

Righteous Fury also buffs threat from physical damage as well now.

Did not know this.

Dhalphir

Zephyranthes91 wrote: »

Righteous Fury also buffs threat from physical damage as well now.

not by the 90% modifier though, just by the base modifier that every tank got when they removed Blessing of Salvation

Nobody

MagicPrime wrote: »

Saban wrote: »

Single target threat hasnt been an issue for me yet.

Dying on the other hand.

I have heard stories of the Blood Draining proc messing up Argent Defender when its pops its heal when you get low health.

I went back and doublechecked maintankadin, there's not been any reports of this. There was an entire thread devoted to the interaction between Blood Draining and the old Ardent Defender here, and the guy who started the thread mentions on the last page that he sees no reason to revisit it given that AD doesn't leapfrog anymore.

What you may have seen was a case of server lag, which can sometimes cause the death to occur without the heal going off (though this is somewhat rare and in the same category as Guardian Spirit not working).

MagicPrime

Nobody wrote: »

MagicPrime wrote: »

Saban wrote: »

Single target threat hasnt been an issue for me yet.

Dying on the other hand.

I have heard stories of the Blood Draining proc messing up Argent Defender when its pops its heal when you get low health.

I went back and doublechecked maintankadin, there's not been any reports of this. There was an entire thread devoted to the interaction between Blood Draining and the old Ardent Defender here, and the guy who started the thread mentions on the last page that he sees no reason to revisit it given that AD doesn't leapfrog anymore.

What you may have seen was a case of server lag, which can sometimes cause the death to occur without the heal going off (though this is somewhat rare and in the same category as Guardian Spirit not working).

I've never seen anything regarding it first hand, only comments. I never put much stock in it because its really moot for me because I don't use the enchant. I like Blade Warding.

Joshmvii

Dhal, I suppose you're talking about boss tanking when you say mana is preferable to rage in most situations, but having tanked on a Paladin all through TBC, I will forever hate tanking with a mana bar. Stopping to drink between pulls is something no tank should ever have to have done, lol.

I'm sure you're just talking about bosses where it's impossible to run out of mana, but I think even then I prefer rage, if only because I tank with a Prot paladin so I always have Sanc so I can heroic strike every swing and my TPS is amazing.