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Maybe cause I jumped on from the very beginning, but Ultimate Spiderman is tied to Bagley, sort of how Ult. X-Men is tied to Kubert, and Ultimates to Bryan Hitch, to the point that anyone else drawing any of those characters seems wrong.
That said, Pichelli's art look's freaking awesome. Comic Alliance had an article showcasing her art and it's great stuff.
It also reminded me....back in Ultimate Comics Spider Man, a supervillain showed up in Pete's high school as a regular student. Did anything come out of that?
I haven't been following the discussion, but I'd just like to say that phrases like "unnecessarily ethnic" imply that writers need a good reason deviate from the norm. I disagree with this opinion. Writers don't need a reason to write non-white characters, and they certainly don't need to explain themselves to an outraged, slightly racist public. Characters just need to be interesting, or at least serve as a vehicle for interesting stories.
Also, and this is my personal opinion, it might not be a horrible idea for writers to purposefully write non-white characters. White is the default in comics, and we don't want younger, non-white readers to feel excluded or believe their race/ethnicity makes them less worthy. When I was a kid, I was often told that I couldn't be Superman or Spider-Man or any of the popular superheroes because they were all white. I needed to pick a Chinese superhero (or be a villain) if I wanted to play. Ignoring the dearth of Chinese superheroes, I never felt race was essential to the characters I wanted to play. Spider-Man is a wise-cracking nerd who learned responsibility the hard way, and I identified with him for those reasons. And yet I was excluded from playing him because of race, which probably wasn't good for me in terms of self-image and identity.
This brings me to another point, I don't think non-white characters need to have ethnic adventures that deal with being ethnic, nor do their personalities have to be obviously ethnic (as in stereotypes or accents). Certainly, culture is important to identity, but ethnic characters don't have to thematically be about their particular ethnicity. Very few people define themselves by a single thing, and even less people have race or ethnicity as that single thing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against characters with ethnic cultural identities - we can have those too. Rather, I'm arguing that the average, mainstream superhero does not necessarily need to be white.
When comic book writers are interested in a particular theme (religion, progress vs. tradition, etc.) or a particular setting (dystopian future, corporate America, etc.) they tend to default to white characters, probably - though I have no statistics to back me up - because they themselves are white. They probably feel that they need to take ethnicity into account when writing non-white characters, and, since that's not the focus of the story, it would needlessly complicate things.
Like I said above, I strongly disagree with this opinion. Ethnicity or race is rarely the determining factor in personality or character, so it's okay to make characters ethnic for no reason once in a while. Just for diversity or to give children the idea that heroism is a multicultural concept. Especially for plot-driven or setting-driven stories, where characters exist to move the plot forward or to show off the setting.
For the moment, I'm glad that black and Hispanic kids who want to play Spider-Man at least have an argument in their favor.
I don't hate Bagley's USM art. He's definitely done worse
I do hate his storytelling for the most part
and his fashion sense
see now that surprises me, because I think storytelling is his strongest suit. His faces and bodies can have a bit of sameyness to them at times but on the other hand his faces are also really expressive which I love.
But I've loved Bagely since Thunderbolts
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
High five Bale.
USM has had the best artist team of the last decade. Opinions may vary on who was best, but the weakest artist was probably Mark Brooks and those two annuals he did. He's still a good (albeit slow) artist but he had a habit of drawing everyone older than they were.
That Ultimate Secret Six mini with the awful Trevor Hairsine art is really the only blemish
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
One thing I always hated in the USM hardcover collection 5 (and I guess it was in the TPB too) was that they intentionally took out a page from the USM issue leading into Ultimate Six. They added it in the back of the book saying "we took it out to maintain the page spreads"
You guys just couldn't put a black page next to it, or even add another page before the issue started to even out the layouts?
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
I don't hate Bagley's USM art. He's definitely done worse
I do hate his storytelling for the most part
and his fashion sense
see now that surprises me, because I think storytelling is his strongest suit. His faces and bodies can have a bit of sameyness to them at times but on the other hand his faces are also really expressive which I love.
But I've loved Bagely since Thunderbolts
His faces can be expressive (if not all looking the same)
But he does way too many panels that are just closeups on faces
I was totally on board with Spider-Man until I saw that he shaved his head. That can cause severe psychic harm to your hairs. Takes them months to recover.
We're all in this together
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
USM has had the best artist team of the last decade. Opinions may vary on who was best, but the weakest artist was probably Mark Brooks and those two annuals he did. He's still a good (albeit slow) artist but he had a habit of drawing everyone older than they were.
I loved Mark Brooks' USM work. Wish I could've had more of it.
Its interesting that Bendis decided to go with Miles Morales being both black and hispanic. While I recognize that this is a demographic, are there not racial tensions between black and hispanic communities? I speak from a position of ignorance, in that I'm a yuppie white boy and I get my information on this from TruTV.
Like I said, I speak from a position of ignorance. I was just wondering if the new Spider-man would necessarily be embraced by solely African-American or Hispanic readers. For instance, if the new Spider-man was instead both Arabic and Jewish, would he be accepted by communities that were solely Arabic or solely Jewish?
The point I'm sort of kind of getting across is that maybe Bendis is pushing things by cramming multiple ethnicities into one Spider-man when ethnic superheros who are just one ethnicity have trouble standing on their own as it is?
Its interesting that Bendis decided to go with Miles Morales being both black and hispanic. While I recognize that this is a demographic, are there not racial tensions between black and hispanic communities? I speak from a position of ignorance, in that I'm a yuppie white boy and I get my information on this from TruTV.
this is either the most tactically unsound troll in the history of a subforum dedicated to comic books or in the least offensive way i can state, the dumbest fucking thing i've read in a long time
cshadow42, very few superheroes have problems that hinge on their racial identity
there have been, and that's good territory to cover and all but for the most part the ultimate spider-man comic is about young characters in strange adventures and shit
whatever the fuck is wrong with your worldview aside, comic book characters with big names like spider-man or batman or superman are generally made to appeal to everybody as alienating somebody would fuck up the accessibility of the character
I'm curious to see how it all works out. This may actually make me start buying into the Ultimate Universe again after Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum killed my desire to support it, or at least what was left of it.
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
Sorry, didn't mean to come off sounding like a troll or racially insensitive. I really am dumb as shit.
I was trying (in a bad way), to raise the question as to whether Bendis was creating this character to pander, or whether he could develop a meaningful take on the character. I've seen some writers write characters in a manner that seemed like pandering, or in a manner that seemed grossly stereotypical. I've also seen writers develop characters who also happen to be a minority in some manner. For example, good examples that I'll toss out are: X-Factor's Richtor/Shatterstar, Judd Winick's Speedy.
Sorry, didn't mean to come off sounding like a troll or racially insensitive. I really am dumb as shit.
I was trying (in a bad way), to raise the question as to whether Bendis was creating this character to pander, or whether he could develop a meaningful take on the character. I've seen some writers write characters in a manner that seemed like pandering, or in a manner that seemed grossly stereotypical. I've also seen writers develop characters who also happen to be a minority in some manner. For example, good examples that I'll toss out are: X-Factor's Richtor/Shatterstar, Judd Winick's Speedy.
trying to be inclusive isn't pandering in some crass way
all of those characters are generally well thought of save speedy, but that's because judd winick is horrible
the issue of "pandering" ultimately lies in being able to distinguish between being inclusive and "giving someone a seat at the table"
Well as far as I am concerned the more writers that are willing to create characters from ethnic minorities the better. Even if they make characters that are from these minorities just because they want to make teams and so on seem more inclusive that is no necessarily a bad thing, and such is the nature of superhero comic books that another writer can come along and turn a stereotype into a great character.
I mean, look at Luke Cage. When he was made he was a pretty bad seventies sterotype of black people, but Bendis has turned him into a really cool character with lots of depths.
So in general I am happy to celebrate the increased use of minority characters in comic books.
the issue of "pandering" ultimately lies in being able to distinguish between being inclusive and "giving someone a seat at the table"
I could potentially see a "pandering" angle if he's also gay since that'd feel more like a triple-token minority mix... but eh. I don't even think of it as "giving someone else a seat at the table," either. the race of the character really shouldn't matter, imo.
what is known about the Miles Morales character? I haven't followed anything ultimates (or marvel really) for a while...
tastydonuts on
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
I'm curious to see how it all works out. This may actually make me start buying into the Ultimate Universe again after Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum killed my desire to support it, or at least what was left of it.
Ultimate Spider-Man kept on being just as awesome as it always was
the issue of "pandering" ultimately lies in being able to distinguish between being inclusive and "giving someone a seat at the table"
I could potentially see a "pandering" angle if he's also gay since that'd feel more like a triple-token minority mix... but eh. I don't even think of it as "giving someone else a seat at the table," either. the race of the character really shouldn't matter, imo.
what is known about the Miles Morales character? I haven't followed anything ultimates (or marvel really) for a while...
He is a child called Miles Morales. He is black/hispanic. He has Spider-Powers and wants to follow in Peter Parker's footsteps.
Posts
I do hate his storytelling for the most part
and his fashion sense
That said, Pichelli's art look's freaking awesome. Comic Alliance had an article showcasing her art and it's great stuff.
It also reminded me....back in Ultimate Comics Spider Man, a supervillain showed up in Pete's high school as a regular student. Did anything come out of that?
Also, and this is my personal opinion, it might not be a horrible idea for writers to purposefully write non-white characters. White is the default in comics, and we don't want younger, non-white readers to feel excluded or believe their race/ethnicity makes them less worthy. When I was a kid, I was often told that I couldn't be Superman or Spider-Man or any of the popular superheroes because they were all white. I needed to pick a Chinese superhero (or be a villain) if I wanted to play. Ignoring the dearth of Chinese superheroes, I never felt race was essential to the characters I wanted to play. Spider-Man is a wise-cracking nerd who learned responsibility the hard way, and I identified with him for those reasons. And yet I was excluded from playing him because of race, which probably wasn't good for me in terms of self-image and identity.
This brings me to another point, I don't think non-white characters need to have ethnic adventures that deal with being ethnic, nor do their personalities have to be obviously ethnic (as in stereotypes or accents). Certainly, culture is important to identity, but ethnic characters don't have to thematically be about their particular ethnicity. Very few people define themselves by a single thing, and even less people have race or ethnicity as that single thing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against characters with ethnic cultural identities - we can have those too. Rather, I'm arguing that the average, mainstream superhero does not necessarily need to be white.
When comic book writers are interested in a particular theme (religion, progress vs. tradition, etc.) or a particular setting (dystopian future, corporate America, etc.) they tend to default to white characters, probably - though I have no statistics to back me up - because they themselves are white. They probably feel that they need to take ethnicity into account when writing non-white characters, and, since that's not the focus of the story, it would needlessly complicate things.
Like I said above, I strongly disagree with this opinion. Ethnicity or race is rarely the determining factor in personality or character, so it's okay to make characters ethnic for no reason once in a while. Just for diversity or to give children the idea that heroism is a multicultural concept. Especially for plot-driven or setting-driven stories, where characters exist to move the plot forward or to show off the setting.
For the moment, I'm glad that black and Hispanic kids who want to play Spider-Man at least have an argument in their favor.
see now that surprises me, because I think storytelling is his strongest suit. His faces and bodies can have a bit of sameyness to them at times but on the other hand his faces are also really expressive which I love.
But I've loved Bagely since Thunderbolts
USM has had the best artist team of the last decade. Opinions may vary on who was best, but the weakest artist was probably Mark Brooks and those two annuals he did. He's still a good (albeit slow) artist but he had a habit of drawing everyone older than they were.
You guys just couldn't put a black page next to it, or even add another page before the issue started to even out the layouts?
His faces can be expressive (if not all looking the same)
But he does way too many panels that are just closeups on faces
I loved Mark Brooks' USM work. Wish I could've had more of it.
Diablo 3 - ArtfulDodger#1572
Minecraft - ArtfulDodger42
The point I'm sort of kind of getting across is that maybe Bendis is pushing things by cramming multiple ethnicities into one Spider-man when ethnic superheros who are just one ethnicity have trouble standing on their own as it is?
Diablo 3 - ArtfulDodger#1572
Minecraft - ArtfulDodger42
this is either the most tactically unsound troll in the history of a subforum dedicated to comic books or in the least offensive way i can state, the dumbest fucking thing i've read in a long time
He's a comic book character man
He just is
there have been, and that's good territory to cover and all but for the most part the ultimate spider-man comic is about young characters in strange adventures and shit
whatever the fuck is wrong with your worldview aside, comic book characters with big names like spider-man or batman or superman are generally made to appeal to everybody as alienating somebody would fuck up the accessibility of the character
one day a black and a mexican are sitting with their respective issues of ultimate spider-man when all of the sudden one of them goes
"man, what a brave black"
"no way, jose! he's a strong mexican warrior!"
and then they just start a riot on the spot
Oh God
I snorted orange juice out of my nose
The Peace Accord of Carl's Comics will go down in history
I was trying (in a bad way), to raise the question as to whether Bendis was creating this character to pander, or whether he could develop a meaningful take on the character. I've seen some writers write characters in a manner that seemed like pandering, or in a manner that seemed grossly stereotypical. I've also seen writers develop characters who also happen to be a minority in some manner. For example, good examples that I'll toss out are: X-Factor's Richtor/Shatterstar, Judd Winick's Speedy.
Diablo 3 - ArtfulDodger#1572
Minecraft - ArtfulDodger42
Were you laughing at me being dumb as shit, or the examples of minorities in comics that I cited?
Diablo 3 - ArtfulDodger#1572
Minecraft - ArtfulDodger42
trying to be inclusive isn't pandering in some crass way
all of those characters are generally well thought of save speedy, but that's because judd winick is horrible
as opposed to...uh...necessarily ethnic
holy shit
Well as far as I am concerned the more writers that are willing to create characters from ethnic minorities the better. Even if they make characters that are from these minorities just because they want to make teams and so on seem more inclusive that is no necessarily a bad thing, and such is the nature of superhero comic books that another writer can come along and turn a stereotype into a great character.
I mean, look at Luke Cage. When he was made he was a pretty bad seventies sterotype of black people, but Bendis has turned him into a really cool character with lots of depths.
So in general I am happy to celebrate the increased use of minority characters in comic books.
I could potentially see a "pandering" angle if he's also gay since that'd feel more like a triple-token minority mix... but eh. I don't even think of it as "giving someone else a seat at the table," either. the race of the character really shouldn't matter, imo.
what is known about the Miles Morales character? I haven't followed anything ultimates (or marvel really) for a while...
Ultimate Spider-Man kept on being just as awesome as it always was
He is a child called Miles Morales. He is black/hispanic. He has Spider-Powers and wants to follow in Peter Parker's footsteps.
That is basically it.