Where has it been stated that the person would not go ahead with the proposal if permission was refused?
It is a social nicety. It has nothign to do with actually requiring permission, and everything to do with showing that you have a level of respect for the person that you are asking (and they are supposed to reciprocate the respect by saying yes.)
There is an issue of respect for the partner, MAYBE, but you're stretching it to call it "sexism" when you think that it can be equally applied to either sex.
It doesn't matter if you're planning on going through with it or not! Simply by asking you're implying someone other than her is the one making the decision on whether or not she can be married!
I'm trolling? Are you even fucking reading my posts? I'm agreeing with you, moron!
I just read your post and excised that part. I am confused as to your position here. You seem to be agreeing with me in some posts and disagreeing with me in others. WTF?
That is exactly what I am doing. I am agreeing with you as it pertains to the thread, but disagreeing with you as pertains to your overall feelings of sexism.
Can you please respond, then, in how condescending to someone of the opposite sex is sexism? I condescend to everyone equally. Haven't you seen my posting style?
Because you are taking away her choice. If she wants it one way, it is her choice. Like I said, if you two sit down and talk about it like equals and convince her in a way that she accepts, that is one thing. But going I KNOW BETETR THAN YOU AND WE ARE NOT DOING IT is sexist.
Whoa there. How is it "her choice"? It's our choice, not hers, and not mine. Though technically it ultimately IS my choice, as it is my mouth that would have to do the talking, the same way abortion is ultimately the woman's choice, because it's the woman's womb that carries the baby. I see this as identical in that regard. Sure, you can talk about it and come to an agreement based on what you both think. There's nothing wrong with that.
But I'm not arguing about doing what's "better" in any specific relationship, I'm talking only of whether or not this is sexism. If my girlfriend wants me to ask for her parent's permission, then I would inform her it is sexist. I'm not telling her "no, that's not what you want." I'm telling her "it's sexist," which it is. Maybe she wants it anyway. Damned if I know.
Also, it's not sexist to do what you want. Selfishness is not sexism, nor is it inherently wrong. Is it "sexist" for a woman to get an abortion even if the man doesn't want it? I would say no. I would say it's very complicated. But I would not say that it is sexist. It's not sexist for me to draw my line. If I don't want to ask the parent's permission, I don't god damned have to. And she doesn't have to marry me. Relationships are about compromise for fuck's sake, but you are still an individual and acting in your own agency is not an example of sexism.
I find it appalling that you think I would "have" to conform my wife's desires lest I be considered "sexist". I don't really understand how you come to that conclusion in the first place.
If she, as a consenting adult, wants you to do something that action cannot be sexist against her, since she has requested it. It can be sexist against you, if you don't want to do it and feel that doing so will be somehow targetting you for discrimination as a male. But it cannot be sexist against her.
I have addressed this already. Even if someone says "please treat me differently because I am black," treating them differently because they are black is racist. And suggesting that a woman is parental property is sexism regardless of what she wants, thinks, or even directly asks for. We are back to the argument on whether or not this is OBJECTIVELY sexist, which it is, and so what she wants or thinks is irrelevant as to the question of if this is an example of sexism. There is no case-by-case basis here. It is sexist in ANY context.
I fail to see any argument for this that does not involve a genetic fallacy.
Would it be objectively sexist if it was a woman asking the parents of a man?
Yes.
So how about considerations that don't hinge on ownership of the child?
When you marry someone who has a living family you are, in both symbolic and in some instances legal manners, joining that family. Rather than asking the parents to give up their property the marriage permission request could (and I'd say in many cases does) function as a request to become a member of their extended family. I'm pretty sure that's not sexist regardless of the genders involved, and finding out whether or not you or your spouse's family has a problem with being related to your spouse or you is probably a polite thing to do.
That's an interesting point, but the parents always have the right to not leave their stuff to their daughter if they don't want to.
Right. They don't have veto power over their son or daughter's romantic decisions, but they do have a right to an opinion. Acting contradictory to that opinion is the child's right, but doing so may cause familial disharmony, which may not be something that they are willing to endure for the sake of the marriage. Or which they believe would eventually cause the marriage to fail. Someone has to ask the parents what their opinion is in that case, and I don't see anything wrong with it being the unrelated spouse rather than the child.
They have a right to their own opinion. Whether or not they have a right to mouth that opinion is up to additional debate. Everyone has a right to think whatever they want, though. "Thinking" is a basic human activity.
There is no "contradictory to" the parent's opinion, because ultimately their opinion is irrelevant. They have a right to it, but it should in no way control the daughter's actions. Do they have a right to advise their daughter about any given relationship? Sure! I have absolutely no problem with that. But they don't have a right to KNOW about their daughter's relationship. They don't have a right to KNOW my intentions with their daughter. And they don't have a right to stop it, or even to bless it.
In some cases it may be true that your future spouse is willing to live in a social vacuum populated by the two of you and that external opinions and influences are incapable of effecting the emotional state of your married life, but I think that in the majority of cases this isn't true. The ultimate decision is yours and your spouse's, yes, but to say that no one else's opinion has any bearing whatsoever on which decision you make is to completely ignore an awful lot of facets of interpersonal relationships and their effect on daily mental well-being.
My mother hated my wife when we got engaged. My wife went to her and tried to talk her around to being okay with our marriage. She refused and said some really nasty things. Despite that I have relatively infrequent contact with my mother and that I really didn't give a crap what she thought, her attitude nearly ended our engagement because it so stressed my wife. Even after we were married, interaction directly or indirectly with my mother (e.g. messages relayed to my wife via my sisters who liked her from my mother as gossip) caused some serious instability in our relationship. And this is in a case where I, the child, really didn't give a shit what my mom had to say about it.
I'm trolling? Are you even fucking reading my posts? I'm agreeing with you, moron!
I just read your post and excised that part. I am confused as to your position here. You seem to be agreeing with me in some posts and disagreeing with me in others. WTF?
That is exactly what I am doing. I am agreeing with you as it pertains to the thread, but disagreeing with you as pertains to your overall feelings of sexism.
Can you please respond, then, in how condescending to someone of the opposite sex is sexism? I condescend to everyone equally. Haven't you seen my posting style?
Because you are taking away her choice. If she wants it one way, it is her choice. Like I said, if you two sit down and talk about it like equals and convince her in a way that she accepts, that is one thing. But going I KNOW BETETR THAN YOU AND WE ARE NOT DOING IT is sexist.
Whoa there. How is it "her choice"? It's our choice, not hers, and not mine. Though technically it ultimately IS my choice, as it is my mouth that would have to do the talking, the same way abortion is ultimately the woman's choice, because it's the woman's womb that carries the baby. I see this as identical in that regard. Sure, you can talk about it and come to an agreement based on what you both think. There's nothing wrong with that.
But I'm not arguing about doing what's "better" in any specific relationship, I'm talking only of whether or not this is sexism. If my girlfriend wants me to ask for her parent's permission, then I would inform her it is sexist. I'm not telling her "no, that's not what you want." I'm telling her "it's sexist," which it is. Maybe she wants it anyway. Damned if I know.
Also, it's not sexist to do what you want. Selfishness is not sexism, nor is it inherently wrong. Is it "sexist" for a woman to get an abortion even if the man doesn't want it? I would say no. I would say it's very complicated. But I would not say that it is sexist. It's not sexist for me to draw my line. If I don't want to ask the parent's permission, I don't god damned have to. And she doesn't have to marry me. Relationships are about compromise for fuck's sake, but you are still an individual and acting in your own agency is not an example of sexism.
I find it appalling that you think I would "have" to conform my wife's desires lest I be considered "sexist". I don't really understand how you come to that conclusion in the first place.
You're not even reading what I'm saying. I never said you had to do anything. If she feels strongly enough about it to the point that she would say No to you if you hadn't asked her parents first, would you refuse to propose to her?
I'm trolling? Are you even fucking reading my posts? I'm agreeing with you, moron!
I just read your post and excised that part. I am confused as to your position here. You seem to be agreeing with me in some posts and disagreeing with me in others. WTF?
That is exactly what I am doing. I am agreeing with you as it pertains to the thread, but disagreeing with you as pertains to your overall feelings of sexism.
Can you please respond, then, in how condescending to someone of the opposite sex is sexism? I condescend to everyone equally. Haven't you seen my posting style?
Because you are taking away her choice. If she wants it one way, it is her choice. Like I said, if you two sit down and talk about it like equals and convince her in a way that she accepts, that is one thing. But going I KNOW BETETR THAN YOU AND WE ARE NOT DOING IT is sexist.
Whoa there. How is it "her choice"? It's our choice, not hers, and not mine. Though technically it ultimately IS my choice, as it is my mouth that would have to do the talking, the same way abortion is ultimately the woman's choice, because it's the woman's womb that carries the baby. I see this as identical in that regard. Sure, you can talk about it and come to an agreement based on what you both think. There's nothing wrong with that.
But I'm not arguing about doing what's "better" in any specific relationship, I'm talking only of whether or not this is sexism. If my girlfriend wants me to ask for her parent's permission, then I would inform her it is sexist. I'm not telling her "no, that's not what you want." I'm telling her "it's sexist," which it is. Maybe she wants it anyway. Damned if I know.
Also, it's not sexist to do what you want. Selfishness is not sexism, nor is it inherently wrong. Is it "sexist" for a woman to get an abortion even if the man doesn't want it? I would say no. I would say it's very complicated. But I would not say that it is sexist. It's not sexist for me to draw my line. If I don't want to ask the parent's permission, I don't god damned have to. And she doesn't have to marry me. Relationships are about compromise for fuck's sake, but you are still an individual and acting in your own agency is not an example of sexism.
I find it appalling that you think I would "have" to conform my wife's desires lest I be considered "sexist". I don't really understand how you come to that conclusion in the first place.
You're not even reading what I'm saying. I never said you had to do anything. If she feels strongly enough about it to the point that she would say No to you if you hadn't asked her parents first, would you refuse to propose to her?
I'm trolling? Are you even fucking reading my posts? I'm agreeing with you, moron!
I just read your post and excised that part. I am confused as to your position here. You seem to be agreeing with me in some posts and disagreeing with me in others. WTF?
That is exactly what I am doing. I am agreeing with you as it pertains to the thread, but disagreeing with you as pertains to your overall feelings of sexism.
Can you please respond, then, in how condescending to someone of the opposite sex is sexism? I condescend to everyone equally. Haven't you seen my posting style?
Because you are taking away her choice. If she wants it one way, it is her choice. Like I said, if you two sit down and talk about it like equals and convince her in a way that she accepts, that is one thing. But going I KNOW BETETR THAN YOU AND WE ARE NOT DOING IT is sexist.
Whoa there. How is it "her choice"? It's our choice, not hers, and not mine. Though technically it ultimately IS my choice, as it is my mouth that would have to do the talking, the same way abortion is ultimately the woman's choice, because it's the woman's womb that carries the baby. I see this as identical in that regard. Sure, you can talk about it and come to an agreement based on what you both think. There's nothing wrong with that.
But I'm not arguing about doing what's "better" in any specific relationship, I'm talking only of whether or not this is sexism. If my girlfriend wants me to ask for her parent's permission, then I would inform her it is sexist. I'm not telling her "no, that's not what you want." I'm telling her "it's sexist," which it is. Maybe she wants it anyway. Damned if I know.
Also, it's not sexist to do what you want. Selfishness is not sexism, nor is it inherently wrong. Is it "sexist" for a woman to get an abortion even if the man doesn't want it? I would say no. I would say it's very complicated. But I would not say that it is sexist. It's not sexist for me to draw my line. If I don't want to ask the parent's permission, I don't god damned have to. And she doesn't have to marry me. Relationships are about compromise for fuck's sake, but you are still an individual and acting in your own agency is not an example of sexism.
I find it appalling that you think I would "have" to conform my wife's desires lest I be considered "sexist". I don't really understand how you come to that conclusion in the first place.
You're not even reading what I'm saying. I never said you had to do anything. If she feels strongly enough about it to the point that she would say No to you if you hadn't asked her parents first, would you refuse to propose to her?
Quite possibly.
Thank you.
And...what? You're suggesting that my being principled against sexism makes me sexist? I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here.
Where has it been stated that the person would not go ahead with the proposal if permission was refused?
It is a social nicety. It has nothign to do with actually requiring permission, and everything to do with showing that you have a level of respect for the person that you are asking (and they are supposed to reciprocate the respect by saying yes.)
There is an issue of respect for the partner, MAYBE, but you're stretching it to call it "sexism" when you think that it can be equally applied to either sex.
It doesn't matter if you're planning on going through with it or not! Simply by asking you're implying someone other than her is the one making the decision on whether or not she can be married!
Implying it to who?
The woman, the parents, people in general...
Sorry, no.
If we're talking about consenting adults, it doesn't work that way.
There's no third person omniscient viewpoint in reality.
I'm trolling? Are you even fucking reading my posts? I'm agreeing with you, moron!
I just read your post and excised that part. I am confused as to your position here. You seem to be agreeing with me in some posts and disagreeing with me in others. WTF?
That is exactly what I am doing. I am agreeing with you as it pertains to the thread, but disagreeing with you as pertains to your overall feelings of sexism.
Can you please respond, then, in how condescending to someone of the opposite sex is sexism? I condescend to everyone equally. Haven't you seen my posting style?
Because you are taking away her choice. If she wants it one way, it is her choice. Like I said, if you two sit down and talk about it like equals and convince her in a way that she accepts, that is one thing. But going I KNOW BETETR THAN YOU AND WE ARE NOT DOING IT is sexist.
Whoa there. How is it "her choice"? It's our choice, not hers, and not mine. Though technically it ultimately IS my choice, as it is my mouth that would have to do the talking, the same way abortion is ultimately the woman's choice, because it's the woman's womb that carries the baby. I see this as identical in that regard. Sure, you can talk about it and come to an agreement based on what you both think. There's nothing wrong with that.
But I'm not arguing about doing what's "better" in any specific relationship, I'm talking only of whether or not this is sexism. If my girlfriend wants me to ask for her parent's permission, then I would inform her it is sexist. I'm not telling her "no, that's not what you want." I'm telling her "it's sexist," which it is. Maybe she wants it anyway. Damned if I know.
Also, it's not sexist to do what you want. Selfishness is not sexism, nor is it inherently wrong. Is it "sexist" for a woman to get an abortion even if the man doesn't want it? I would say no. I would say it's very complicated. But I would not say that it is sexist. It's not sexist for me to draw my line. If I don't want to ask the parent's permission, I don't god damned have to. And she doesn't have to marry me. Relationships are about compromise for fuck's sake, but you are still an individual and acting in your own agency is not an example of sexism.
I find it appalling that you think I would "have" to conform my wife's desires lest I be considered "sexist". I don't really understand how you come to that conclusion in the first place.
You're not even reading what I'm saying. I never said you had to do anything. If she feels strongly enough about it to the point that she would say No to you if you hadn't asked her parents first, would you refuse to propose to her?
Quite possibly.
Thank you.
And...what? You're suggesting that my being principled against sexism makes me sexist? I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here.
Feminism was about woman's choice. You have now taken the choice away from her. Sexist.
Where has it been stated that the person would not go ahead with the proposal if permission was refused?
It is a social nicety. It has nothign to do with actually requiring permission, and everything to do with showing that you have a level of respect for the person that you are asking (and they are supposed to reciprocate the respect by saying yes.)
There is an issue of respect for the partner, MAYBE, but you're stretching it to call it "sexism" when you think that it can be equally applied to either sex.
It doesn't matter if you're planning on going through with it or not! Simply by asking you're implying someone other than her is the one making the decision on whether or not she can be married!
Implying it to who?
The woman, the parents, people in general...
Sorry, no.
If we're talking about consenting adults, it doesn't work that way.
There's no third person omniscient viewpoint in reality.
Too bad there is. Right there.
You're telling her and her parents that she is owned. First by her parents, and now by you.
If we're talking about consenting adults, it doesn't work that way.
There's no third person omniscient viewpoint in reality.
Yes there is. It's the difference between objective and subjective.
The same situation which is objectively sexist (in a cultural context) can be subjectively not sexist (in an individual's context), from the point of view of the person involved.
I'm trolling? Are you even fucking reading my posts? I'm agreeing with you, moron!
I just read your post and excised that part. I am confused as to your position here. You seem to be agreeing with me in some posts and disagreeing with me in others. WTF?
That is exactly what I am doing. I am agreeing with you as it pertains to the thread, but disagreeing with you as pertains to your overall feelings of sexism.
Can you please respond, then, in how condescending to someone of the opposite sex is sexism? I condescend to everyone equally. Haven't you seen my posting style?
Because you are taking away her choice. If she wants it one way, it is her choice. Like I said, if you two sit down and talk about it like equals and convince her in a way that she accepts, that is one thing. But going I KNOW BETETR THAN YOU AND WE ARE NOT DOING IT is sexist.
Whoa there. How is it "her choice"? It's our choice, not hers, and not mine. Though technically it ultimately IS my choice, as it is my mouth that would have to do the talking, the same way abortion is ultimately the woman's choice, because it's the woman's womb that carries the baby. I see this as identical in that regard. Sure, you can talk about it and come to an agreement based on what you both think. There's nothing wrong with that.
But I'm not arguing about doing what's "better" in any specific relationship, I'm talking only of whether or not this is sexism. If my girlfriend wants me to ask for her parent's permission, then I would inform her it is sexist. I'm not telling her "no, that's not what you want." I'm telling her "it's sexist," which it is. Maybe she wants it anyway. Damned if I know.
Also, it's not sexist to do what you want. Selfishness is not sexism, nor is it inherently wrong. Is it "sexist" for a woman to get an abortion even if the man doesn't want it? I would say no. I would say it's very complicated. But I would not say that it is sexist. It's not sexist for me to draw my line. If I don't want to ask the parent's permission, I don't god damned have to. And she doesn't have to marry me. Relationships are about compromise for fuck's sake, but you are still an individual and acting in your own agency is not an example of sexism.
I find it appalling that you think I would "have" to conform my wife's desires lest I be considered "sexist". I don't really understand how you come to that conclusion in the first place.
You're not even reading what I'm saying. I never said you had to do anything. If she feels strongly enough about it to the point that she would say No to you if you hadn't asked her parents first, would you refuse to propose to her?
Quite possibly.
Thank you.
And...what? You're suggesting that my being principled against sexism makes me sexist? I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here.
Feminism was about woman's choice. You have now taken the choice away from her. Sexist.
Feminism is (present tense) about gender equality. I point you to the block of text above wherein I ask why I must surrender my own agency?
My actions are not the "woman's choice". Ever. Just as her actions are not MY choice. Ever. By choosing to act upon my own principles, I am not removing any choice on the part of the woman. He choices end at what she is willing to either propose or accept, just as mine do.
I can choose to propose or not propose marriage to anyone for any reason. That is what we call freedom. Likewise, a woman can do the same. And a man can refuse a proposal for any reason. And a woman can refuse a proposal for any reason. To suggest that feminism removes MY agency as an individual is anti-feminist AND sexist.
edit: I think you may be suffering some kind of delusion that there is a "community" decision here. That's not how it works. There are only individual decisions and choices and sometimes you compromise and sometimes you don't.
Where has it been stated that the person would not go ahead with the proposal if permission was refused?
It is a social nicety. It has nothign to do with actually requiring permission, and everything to do with showing that you have a level of respect for the person that you are asking (and they are supposed to reciprocate the respect by saying yes.)
There is an issue of respect for the partner, MAYBE, but you're stretching it to call it "sexism" when you think that it can be equally applied to either sex.
It doesn't matter if you're planning on going through with it or not! Simply by asking you're implying someone other than her is the one making the decision on whether or not she can be married!
Implying it to who?
The woman, the parents, people in general...
Sorry, no.
If we're talking about consenting adults, it doesn't work that way.
There's no third person omniscient viewpoint in reality.
Too bad there is. Right there.
You're telling her and her parents that she is owned. First by her parents, and now by you.
There's a difference between making the decision and influencing the decision. If your spouse's parents oppose the marriage they may still decide to go through with it, or they may not. The decision to marry you or not marry you is theirs to make. If you want to maintain their right of choice then you have to maintain their right to make that choice for whatever reasons they feel like, even if one of their deciding factors is a 'sexist' concern for their parents blessing.
Where has it been stated that the person would not go ahead with the proposal if permission was refused?
It is a social nicety. It has nothign to do with actually requiring permission, and everything to do with showing that you have a level of respect for the person that you are asking (and they are supposed to reciprocate the respect by saying yes.)
There is an issue of respect for the partner, MAYBE, but you're stretching it to call it "sexism" when you think that it can be equally applied to either sex.
It doesn't matter if you're planning on going through with it or not! Simply by asking you're implying someone other than her is the one making the decision on whether or not she can be married!
Implying it to who?
The woman, the parents, people in general...
Sorry, no.
If we're talking about consenting adults, it doesn't work that way.
There's no third person omniscient viewpoint in reality.
Too bad there is. Right there.
You're telling her and her parents that she is owned. First by her parents, and now by you.
Right where?
Who is the third party looking in and misunderstanding what is going on?
Because in this scenario you AREN'T saying that anyone is owned by anyone else, you're following a social nicety, with the full intention to go ahead and propose REGARDLESS of the answer recieved.
Where has it been stated that the person would not go ahead with the proposal if permission was refused?
It is a social nicety. It has nothign to do with actually requiring permission, and everything to do with showing that you have a level of respect for the person that you are asking (and they are supposed to reciprocate the respect by saying yes.)
There is an issue of respect for the partner, MAYBE, but you're stretching it to call it "sexism" when you think that it can be equally applied to either sex.
It doesn't matter if you're planning on going through with it or not! Simply by asking you're implying someone other than her is the one making the decision on whether or not she can be married!
Implying it to who?
The woman, the parents, people in general...
Sorry, no.
If we're talking about consenting adults, it doesn't work that way.
There's no third person omniscient viewpoint in reality.
Too bad there is. Right there.
You're telling her and her parents that she is owned. First by her parents, and now by you.
Right where?
Who is the third party looking in and misunderstanding what is going on?
Because in this scenario you AREN'T saying that anyone is owned by anyone else, you're following a social nicety, with the full intention to go ahead and propose REGARDLESS of the answer recieved.
It's not a social nicety. Saying god bless you is a social nicety. Holding a door for somebody is a social nicety.
Asking someone wholly outside the transaction if somebody else may be allowed to marry is not a social nicety and directly implies that that person has to be told that they are allowed to marry someone.
Where has it been stated that the person would not go ahead with the proposal if permission was refused?
It is a social nicety. It has nothign to do with actually requiring permission, and everything to do with showing that you have a level of respect for the person that you are asking (and they are supposed to reciprocate the respect by saying yes.)
There is an issue of respect for the partner, MAYBE, but you're stretching it to call it "sexism" when you think that it can be equally applied to either sex.
It doesn't matter if you're planning on going through with it or not! Simply by asking you're implying someone other than her is the one making the decision on whether or not she can be married!
Implying it to who?
The woman, the parents, people in general...
Sorry, no.
If we're talking about consenting adults, it doesn't work that way.
There's no third person omniscient viewpoint in reality.
Too bad there is. Right there.
You're telling her and her parents that she is owned. First by her parents, and now by you.
Right where?
Who is the third party looking in and misunderstanding what is going on?
Because in this scenario you AREN'T saying that anyone is owned by anyone else, you're following a social nicety, with the full intention to go ahead and propose REGARDLESS of the answer recieved.
It's not a social nicety. Saying god bless you is a social nicety. Holding a door for somebody is a social nicety.
Asking someone wholly outside the transaction if somebody else may be allowed to marry is not a social nicety and directly implies that that person has to be told that they are allowed to marry someone.
That really only works if you assume that the child is somehow beholden to follow the parents' wishes. In any instance where you find yourself asking for permission to propose, your fiancee-to-be probably cares what their parents have to say on the matter, but may not necessarily care so heavily that they will switch between yes and no on the basis of the answer. In fact, generally if you're asked to ask permission first the person has already made up their mind and already knows how their parents will react. I think that relatively few people go into a proposal so cold that they don't know whether the parents will be alright with it or if their significant other is going to say okay.
I find it hard to believe that anybody can get up in a huff over asking for the family's blessing when the much more concretely sexist (and expensive) engagement ring tradition still exists.
Offensive? Please. You taking away her choice because you know better is absolutely sexist and I'm truly sorry you can't see that.
Explain to me how my girlfriend gets to choose my actions. I haven't taken away her choice, because SHE DOESN'T GET TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT I ASK HER PARENTS ANYTHING. How are you unable to grasp that?
Where has it been stated that the person would not go ahead with the proposal if permission was refused?
It is a social nicety. It has nothign to do with actually requiring permission, and everything to do with showing that you have a level of respect for the person that you are asking (and they are supposed to reciprocate the respect by saying yes.)
There is an issue of respect for the partner, MAYBE, but you're stretching it to call it "sexism" when you think that it can be equally applied to either sex.
It doesn't matter if you're planning on going through with it or not! Simply by asking you're implying someone other than her is the one making the decision on whether or not she can be married!
Implying it to who?
The woman, the parents, people in general...
Sorry, no.
If we're talking about consenting adults, it doesn't work that way.
There's no third person omniscient viewpoint in reality.
Too bad there is. Right there.
You're telling her and her parents that she is owned. First by her parents, and now by you.
Right where?
Who is the third party looking in and misunderstanding what is going on?
Because in this scenario you AREN'T saying that anyone is owned by anyone else, you're following a social nicety, with the full intention to go ahead and propose REGARDLESS of the answer recieved.
It's not a social nicety. Saying god bless you is a social nicety. Holding a door for somebody is a social nicety.
Asking someone wholly outside the transaction if somebody else may be allowed to marry is not a social nicety and directly implies that that person has to be told that they are allowed to marry someone.
First of all, holding a door has practical application.
Secondly, you're talking about implication again, without there being anyone who is being implied to. Who is the individual who is misunderstanding the motivation?
Offensive? Please. You taking away her choice because you know better is absolutely sexist and I'm truly sorry you can't see that.
Explain to me how my girlfriend gets to choose my actions. I haven't taken away her choice, because SHE DOESN'T GET TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT I ASK HER PARENTS ANYTHING. How are you unable to grasp that?
Don't feel sorry for me. Feel sorry for yourself.
I'm a radical feminist and even I think he isn't making sense.
Offensive? Please. You taking away her choice because you know better is absolutely sexist and I'm truly sorry you can't see that.
Explain to me how my girlfriend gets to choose my actions. I haven't taken away her choice, because SHE DOESN'T GET TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT I ASK HER PARENTS ANYTHING. How are you unable to grasp that?
Don't feel sorry for me. Feel sorry for yourself.
I'm a radical feminist and even I think he isn't making sense.
I never said she was choosing your actions. But if she really wants you to do something, and you tell her you know better than her and you refuse to do it, how is that NOT sexist?
Offensive? Please. You taking away her choice because you know better is absolutely sexist and I'm truly sorry you can't see that.
Explain to me how my girlfriend gets to choose my actions. I haven't taken away her choice, because SHE DOESN'T GET TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT I ASK HER PARENTS ANYTHING. How are you unable to grasp that?
Don't feel sorry for me. Feel sorry for yourself.
I'm a radical feminist and even I think he isn't making sense.
I never said she was choosing your actions. But if she really wants you to do something, and you tell her you know better than her and you refuse to do it, how is that NOT sexist?
Unless its like..killing her or something.
So, are you saying that every time a guy doesn't do what a woman wants, that's sexism?
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
Offensive? Please. You taking away her choice because you know better is absolutely sexist and I'm truly sorry you can't see that.
Explain to me how my girlfriend gets to choose my actions. I haven't taken away her choice, because SHE DOESN'T GET TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT I ASK HER PARENTS ANYTHING. How are you unable to grasp that?
Don't feel sorry for me. Feel sorry for yourself.
I'm a radical feminist and even I think he isn't making sense.
I never said she was choosing your actions. But if she really wants you to do something, and you tell her you know better than her and you refuse to do it, how is that NOT sexist?
Unless its like..killing her or something.
So, are you saying that every time a guy doesn't do what a woman wants, that's sexism?
Of course not.
If you say you won't do it because you know better than her, then yes.
Also, I'm talking in regards to this thread, not in regards to something like Paragliding.
Offensive? Please. You taking away her choice because you know better is absolutely sexist and I'm truly sorry you can't see that.
Explain to me how my girlfriend gets to choose my actions. I haven't taken away her choice, because SHE DOESN'T GET TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT I ASK HER PARENTS ANYTHING. How are you unable to grasp that?
Don't feel sorry for me. Feel sorry for yourself.
I'm a radical feminist and even I think he isn't making sense.
I never said she was choosing your actions. But if she really wants you to do something, and you tell her you know better than her and you refuse to do it, how is that NOT sexist?
Unless its like..killing her or something.
So, are you saying that every time a guy doesn't do what a woman wants, that's sexism?
Of course not.
If you say you won't do it because you know better than her, then yes.
Also, I'm talking in regards to this thread, not in regards to something like Paragliding.
You're conflating "I won't do this because it's sexist" with "I won't do this because I know better than you."
Offensive? Please. You taking away her choice because you know better is absolutely sexist and I'm truly sorry you can't see that.
Explain to me how my girlfriend gets to choose my actions. I haven't taken away her choice, because SHE DOESN'T GET TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT I ASK HER PARENTS ANYTHING. How are you unable to grasp that?
Don't feel sorry for me. Feel sorry for yourself.
I'm a radical feminist and even I think he isn't making sense.
I never said she was choosing your actions. But if she really wants you to do something, and you tell her you know better than her and you refuse to do it, how is that NOT sexist?
Unless its like..killing her or something.
So, are you saying that every time a guy doesn't do what a woman wants, that's sexism?
Of course not.
If you say you won't do it because you know better than her, then yes.
Also, I'm talking in regards to this thread, not in regards to something like Paragliding.
Why, because men AND women can be knowledgeable abou hangliding but only women can be knowledgable about sexism against women? All individual men are naturally inferior to all individual women with regard to this topic?
Offensive? Please. You taking away her choice because you know better is absolutely sexist and I'm truly sorry you can't see that.
Explain to me how my girlfriend gets to choose my actions. I haven't taken away her choice, because SHE DOESN'T GET TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT I ASK HER PARENTS ANYTHING. How are you unable to grasp that?
Don't feel sorry for me. Feel sorry for yourself.
I'm a radical feminist and even I think he isn't making sense.
I never said she was choosing your actions. But if she really wants you to do something, and you tell her you know better than her and you refuse to do it, how is that NOT sexist?
Unless its like..killing her or something.
So, are you saying that every time a guy doesn't do what a woman wants, that's sexism?
Of course not.
If you say you won't do it because you know better than her, then yes.
Also, I'm talking in regards to this thread, not in regards to something like Paragliding.
You're conflating "I won't do this because it's sexist" with "I won't do this because I know better than you."
Perhaps
But if you still won't do it - or even refuse to propose to her - even if she is begging you to do it?
Offensive? Please. You taking away her choice because you know better is absolutely sexist and I'm truly sorry you can't see that.
Explain to me how my girlfriend gets to choose my actions. I haven't taken away her choice, because SHE DOESN'T GET TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT I ASK HER PARENTS ANYTHING. How are you unable to grasp that?
Don't feel sorry for me. Feel sorry for yourself.
I'm a radical feminist and even I think he isn't making sense.
I never said she was choosing your actions. But if she really wants you to do something, and you tell her you know better than her and you refuse to do it, how is that NOT sexist?
Unless its like..killing her or something.
So, are you saying that every time a guy doesn't do what a woman wants, that's sexism?
Of course not.
If you say you won't do it because you know better than her, then yes.
Also, I'm talking in regards to this thread, not in regards to something like Paragliding.
Why, because men AND women can be knowledgeable abou hangliding but only women can be knowledgable about sexism against women? All individual men are naturally inferior to all individual women with regard to this topic?
Offensive? Please. You taking away her choice because you know better is absolutely sexist and I'm truly sorry you can't see that.
Explain to me how my girlfriend gets to choose my actions. I haven't taken away her choice, because SHE DOESN'T GET TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT I ASK HER PARENTS ANYTHING. How are you unable to grasp that?
Don't feel sorry for me. Feel sorry for yourself.
I'm a radical feminist and even I think he isn't making sense.
I never said she was choosing your actions. But if she really wants you to do something, and you tell her you know better than her and you refuse to do it, how is that NOT sexist?
Unless its like..killing her or something.
So, are you saying that every time a guy doesn't do what a woman wants, that's sexism?
Of course not.
If you say you won't do it because you know better than her, then yes.
Also, I'm talking in regards to this thread, not in regards to something like Paragliding.
You're conflating "I won't do this because it's sexist" with "I won't do this because I know better than you."
While I don't agree with SyphonBlue, I believe he's saying that the implication in "I won't do this because it's sexist" is "I won't do this because it's sexist and if you knew enough to realize that it is harming you then you wouldn't be asking me." Which isn't really sexist at all, unless you add "but you don't know any better because you're just a stupid girl," though it is kind of a dick move. I think that's what he's getting at, anyway.
I don't think any of it is sexist, but I do think you're being kind of a jerk if your SO asks you to talk to their parents before proposing and you say "no it offends my morals". I mean, I guess it might, but if you're that sensitive to sexism you'd probably have dumped a person who would ask such a thing long beforehand anyway.
While I don't agree with SyphonBlue, I believe he's saying that the implication in "I won't do this because it's sexist" is "I won't do this because it's sexist and if you knew enough to realize that it is harming you then you wouldn't be asking me." Which isn't really sexist at all, unless you add "but you don't know any better because you're just a stupid girl," though it is kind of a dick move. I think that's what he's getting at, anyway.
Pretty much.
I think I just lost it in translation somewhere along the way
Offensive? Please. You taking away her choice because you know better is absolutely sexist and I'm truly sorry you can't see that.
Explain to me how my girlfriend gets to choose my actions. I haven't taken away her choice, because SHE DOESN'T GET TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT I ASK HER PARENTS ANYTHING. How are you unable to grasp that?
Don't feel sorry for me. Feel sorry for yourself.
I'm a radical feminist and even I think he isn't making sense.
I never said she was choosing your actions. But if she really wants you to do something, and you tell her you know better than her and you refuse to do it, how is that NOT sexist?
Unless its like..killing her or something.
So, are you saying that every time a guy doesn't do what a woman wants, that's sexism?
Of course not.
If you say you won't do it because you know better than her, then yes.
Also, I'm talking in regards to this thread, not in regards to something like Paragliding.
You're conflating "I won't do this because it's sexist" with "I won't do this because I know better than you."
Perhaps
But if you still won't do it - or even refuse to propose to her - even if she is begging you to do it?
Personally? I don't know - things are a little more complex than a single issue - I find single issue voters silly in the same way I'd find someone ditching their girlfriend because she wanted this. However, if my girlfriend was all about maintaining a sexist tradition, then I imagine she wouldn't be the girlfriend I fell in love with and this lack of maintaining the principle of the matter disheartening.
But honestly, I probably wouldn't be getting involved with someone who made something like this a big deal - especially making a big deal out of maintaining a sexist tradition.
If my girlfriend suddenly whipped out this card (which is very unlikely if you ever knew her) I'd still stay with her, if you had to know.
But if you really don't see how a tradition that suggests parental ownership of daughters - a historically documented one - is sexist, then there really is no point arguing with you. Please explain to me how "can I marry your daughter?" which explicitly suggests ownership over the daughter is not sexist. Please. I really want to know how that washes out in your mind.
My mother in law does not think she owns her daughter. She was just happy that I asked for her approval because that's what she's used to and likes it when younger people go to her for advice, approval, etc. ad I knew my wife wouldn't care if I talked to her mother first. I don't see how anyone was harmed.
Also, the idea you're putting forth here deems a lot of kinky sex as terribly sexist and harmful to women everywhere too.
While I don't agree with SyphonBlue, I believe he's saying that the implication in "I won't do this because it's sexist" is "I won't do this because it's sexist and if you knew enough to realize that it is harming you then you wouldn't be asking me." Which isn't really sexist at all, unless you add "but you don't know any better because you're just a stupid girl," though it is kind of a dick move. I think that's what he's getting at, anyway.
I don't think any of it is sexist, but I do think you're being kind of a jerk if your SO asks you to talk to their parents before proposing and you say "no it offends my morals". I mean, I guess it might, but if you're that sensitive to sexism you'd probably have dumped a person who would ask such a thing long beforehand anyway.
This is my issue with some lines of thought on the subject. One's judgment crosses from the non-personal to make a statement concerning one's ability to make rational decisions. I advocate awareness.
Which is why, in the end, I tend to hold a "to each their own, who the hell am I to tell anyone else what to do?" standpoint. That, and my blatant reversal when it comes to my own actions in my own relationship. See, I used the word "mine" which devalues my partner's agency as a member of the relationship.
ok I stopped reading 15 pages in could someone just tell me if I need to apologize to my fiance for asking her parents permission and buy her another god damn ring
or
whether she and I are cool because
1) When I asked her if I should get her father's blessing her skull spit open and flames started shooting out in a scene that would give Ghost Rider a hard on, and she said "You had better do this right!"
and
2) We are talking about two white kids for Canada named Skip and Aimie?
Offensive? Please. You taking away her choice because you know better is absolutely sexist and I'm truly sorry you can't see that.
Explain to me how my girlfriend gets to choose my actions. I haven't taken away her choice, because SHE DOESN'T GET TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT I ASK HER PARENTS ANYTHING. How are you unable to grasp that?
Don't feel sorry for me. Feel sorry for yourself.
I'm a radical feminist and even I think he isn't making sense.
I never said she was choosing your actions. But if she really wants you to do something, and you tell her you know better than her and you refuse to do it, how is that NOT sexist?
Unless its like..killing her or something.
So, are you saying that every time a guy doesn't do what a woman wants, that's sexism?
Of course not.
If you say you won't do it because you know better than her, then yes.
Also, I'm talking in regards to this thread, not in regards to something like Paragliding.
Why, because men AND women can be knowledgeable abou hangliding but only women can be knowledgable about sexism against women? All individual men are naturally inferior to all individual women with regard to this topic?
Like I said...I'm not the sexist here, you are.
What the hell are you talking about?
Many things.
One, that to suggest a man's knowledge regarding sexism against women is inferior to any given woman is sexist against men.
Two, that to suggest a woman's knowledge regarding sexism against women is inherently superior to any given man's is sexist agai at women.
Three, that it is sexist to suggest that being condescending to someone of another sex is inherently sexist which is just absurd.
ok I stopped reading 15 pages in could someone just tell me if I need to apologize to my fiance for asking her parents permission and buy her another god damn ring
or
whether she and I are cool because
1) When I asked her if I should get her father's blessing her skull spit open and flames started shooting out in a scene that would give Ghost Rider a hard on, and she said "You had better do this right!"
and
2) We are talking about two white kids for Canada named Skip and Aimie?
First, you should apologize for getting the first ring as rings are a sexist vestige of bride prices and you objectified your fiancé, you cock male oppressor.
Second, asking a parent's "permission" is apparently the worst thing you can do ever.
Lastly, "Skip" was the name of one of the preppie barbershop quartet country club jackoffs from the film "Trading Spaces", a movie that glorified prostitution, featured several racist stereotypes against African Americans, and warped my generation's understanding of commodities trading, so you may have to just kill yourself.
ok I stopped reading 15 pages in could someone just tell me if I need to apologize to my fiance for asking her parents permission and buy her another god damn ring
or
whether she and I are cool because
1) When I asked her if I should get her father's blessing her skull spit open and flames started shooting out in a scene that would give Ghost Rider a hard on, and she said "You had better do this right!"
and
2) We are talking about two white kids for Canada named Skip and Aimie?
First, you should apologize for getting the first ring as rings are a sexist vestige of bride prices and you objectified your fiancé, you cock male oppressor.
Second, asking a parent's "permission" is apparently the worst thing you can do ever.
Lastly, "Skip" was the name of one of the preppie barbershop quartet country club jackoffs from the film "Trading Spaces", a movie that glorified prostitution and featured several racist stereotypes against African Americans, so you may have to just kill yourself.
Look at all of that hyperbole and strawmanning fly.
If I didn't know any better, I would say that something about discussing and thinking about this has left you in a defensive state.
Even if the origin of the practice is sexist, it seems kind of absurd to me that people still see it that way.
To me, the practice of asking permission for marriage is still sexist, but the whole tradition of a ring and the actual marriage itself isn't because asking permission is still asking permission, which implies a certain level of non-self ownership.
Posts
The woman, the parents, people in general...
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
I have addressed this already. Even if someone says "please treat me differently because I am black," treating them differently because they are black is racist. And suggesting that a woman is parental property is sexism regardless of what she wants, thinks, or even directly asks for. We are back to the argument on whether or not this is OBJECTIVELY sexist, which it is, and so what she wants or thinks is irrelevant as to the question of if this is an example of sexism. There is no case-by-case basis here. It is sexist in ANY context.
In some cases it may be true that your future spouse is willing to live in a social vacuum populated by the two of you and that external opinions and influences are incapable of effecting the emotional state of your married life, but I think that in the majority of cases this isn't true. The ultimate decision is yours and your spouse's, yes, but to say that no one else's opinion has any bearing whatsoever on which decision you make is to completely ignore an awful lot of facets of interpersonal relationships and their effect on daily mental well-being.
My mother hated my wife when we got engaged. My wife went to her and tried to talk her around to being okay with our marriage. She refused and said some really nasty things. Despite that I have relatively infrequent contact with my mother and that I really didn't give a crap what she thought, her attitude nearly ended our engagement because it so stressed my wife. Even after we were married, interaction directly or indirectly with my mother (e.g. messages relayed to my wife via my sisters who liked her from my mother as gossip) caused some serious instability in our relationship. And this is in a case where I, the child, really didn't give a shit what my mom had to say about it.
Quite possibly.
Thank you.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
And...what? You're suggesting that my being principled against sexism makes me sexist? I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here.
Sorry, no.
If we're talking about consenting adults, it doesn't work that way.
There's no third person omniscient viewpoint in reality.
Feminism was about woman's choice. You have now taken the choice away from her. Sexist.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Too bad there is. Right there.
You're telling her and her parents that she is owned. First by her parents, and now by you.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Yes there is. It's the difference between objective and subjective.
The same situation which is objectively sexist (in a cultural context) can be subjectively not sexist (in an individual's context), from the point of view of the person involved.
Feminism is (present tense) about gender equality. I point you to the block of text above wherein I ask why I must surrender my own agency?
My actions are not the "woman's choice". Ever. Just as her actions are not MY choice. Ever. By choosing to act upon my own principles, I am not removing any choice on the part of the woman. He choices end at what she is willing to either propose or accept, just as mine do.
I can choose to propose or not propose marriage to anyone for any reason. That is what we call freedom. Likewise, a woman can do the same. And a man can refuse a proposal for any reason. And a woman can refuse a proposal for any reason. To suggest that feminism removes MY agency as an individual is anti-feminist AND sexist.
edit: I think you may be suffering some kind of delusion that there is a "community" decision here. That's not how it works. There are only individual decisions and choices and sometimes you compromise and sometimes you don't.
There's a difference between making the decision and influencing the decision. If your spouse's parents oppose the marriage they may still decide to go through with it, or they may not. The decision to marry you or not marry you is theirs to make. If you want to maintain their right of choice then you have to maintain their right to make that choice for whatever reasons they feel like, even if one of their deciding factors is a 'sexist' concern for their parents blessing.
Right where?
Who is the third party looking in and misunderstanding what is going on?
Because in this scenario you AREN'T saying that anyone is owned by anyone else, you're following a social nicety, with the full intention to go ahead and propose REGARDLESS of the answer recieved.
It's not a social nicety. Saying god bless you is a social nicety. Holding a door for somebody is a social nicety.
Asking someone wholly outside the transaction if somebody else may be allowed to marry is not a social nicety and directly implies that that person has to be told that they are allowed to marry someone.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
That really only works if you assume that the child is somehow beholden to follow the parents' wishes. In any instance where you find yourself asking for permission to propose, your fiancee-to-be probably cares what their parents have to say on the matter, but may not necessarily care so heavily that they will switch between yes and no on the basis of the answer. In fact, generally if you're asked to ask permission first the person has already made up their mind and already knows how their parents will react. I think that relatively few people go into a proposal so cold that they don't know whether the parents will be alright with it or if their significant other is going to say okay.
I find it hard to believe that anybody can get up in a huff over asking for the family's blessing when the much more concretely sexist (and expensive) engagement ring tradition still exists.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Explain to me how my girlfriend gets to choose my actions. I haven't taken away her choice, because SHE DOESN'T GET TO CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT I ASK HER PARENTS ANYTHING. How are you unable to grasp that?
Don't feel sorry for me. Feel sorry for yourself.
First of all, holding a door has practical application.
Secondly, you're talking about implication again, without there being anyone who is being implied to. Who is the individual who is misunderstanding the motivation?
I'm a radical feminist and even I think he isn't making sense.
I never said she was choosing your actions. But if she really wants you to do something, and you tell her you know better than her and you refuse to do it, how is that NOT sexist?
Unless its like..killing her or something.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Rigorous Scholarship
Of course not.
If you say you won't do it because you know better than her, then yes.
Also, I'm talking in regards to this thread, not in regards to something like Paragliding.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
You're conflating "I won't do this because it's sexist" with "I won't do this because I know better than you."
Why, because men AND women can be knowledgeable abou hangliding but only women can be knowledgable about sexism against women? All individual men are naturally inferior to all individual women with regard to this topic?
Like I said...I'm not the sexist here, you are.
Perhaps
But if you still won't do it - or even refuse to propose to her - even if she is begging you to do it?
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
What the hell are you talking about?
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
While I don't agree with SyphonBlue, I believe he's saying that the implication in "I won't do this because it's sexist" is "I won't do this because it's sexist and if you knew enough to realize that it is harming you then you wouldn't be asking me." Which isn't really sexist at all, unless you add "but you don't know any better because you're just a stupid girl," though it is kind of a dick move. I think that's what he's getting at, anyway.
I don't think any of it is sexist, but I do think you're being kind of a jerk if your SO asks you to talk to their parents before proposing and you say "no it offends my morals". I mean, I guess it might, but if you're that sensitive to sexism you'd probably have dumped a person who would ask such a thing long beforehand anyway.
Pretty much.
I think I just lost it in translation somewhere along the way
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Personally? I don't know - things are a little more complex than a single issue - I find single issue voters silly in the same way I'd find someone ditching their girlfriend because she wanted this. However, if my girlfriend was all about maintaining a sexist tradition, then I imagine she wouldn't be the girlfriend I fell in love with and this lack of maintaining the principle of the matter disheartening.
But honestly, I probably wouldn't be getting involved with someone who made something like this a big deal - especially making a big deal out of maintaining a sexist tradition.
If my girlfriend suddenly whipped out this card (which is very unlikely if you ever knew her) I'd still stay with her, if you had to know.
My mother in law does not think she owns her daughter. She was just happy that I asked for her approval because that's what she's used to and likes it when younger people go to her for advice, approval, etc. ad I knew my wife wouldn't care if I talked to her mother first. I don't see how anyone was harmed.
Also, the idea you're putting forth here deems a lot of kinky sex as terribly sexist and harmful to women everywhere too.
This is my issue with some lines of thought on the subject. One's judgment crosses from the non-personal to make a statement concerning one's ability to make rational decisions. I advocate awareness.
Which is why, in the end, I tend to hold a "to each their own, who the hell am I to tell anyone else what to do?" standpoint. That, and my blatant reversal when it comes to my own actions in my own relationship. See, I used the word "mine" which devalues my partner's agency as a member of the relationship.
or
whether she and I are cool because
1) When I asked her if I should get her father's blessing her skull spit open and flames started shooting out in a scene that would give Ghost Rider a hard on, and she said "You had better do this right!"
and
2) We are talking about two white kids for Canada named Skip and Aimie?
Many things.
One, that to suggest a man's knowledge regarding sexism against women is inferior to any given woman is sexist against men.
Two, that to suggest a woman's knowledge regarding sexism against women is inherently superior to any given man's is sexist agai at women.
Three, that it is sexist to suggest that being condescending to someone of another sex is inherently sexist which is just absurd.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
People say one thing and do/feel another or exist with some level of cognitive dissonance in their life.
It really isn't uncommon. Again, look at Help/Advice and the crap that gets dropped around there.
First, you should apologize for getting the first ring as rings are a sexist vestige of bride prices and you objectified your fiancé, you cock male oppressor.
Second, asking a parent's "permission" is apparently the worst thing you can do ever.
Lastly, "Skip" was the name of one of the preppie barbershop quartet country club jackoffs from the film "Trading Spaces", a movie that glorified prostitution, featured several racist stereotypes against African Americans, and warped my generation's understanding of commodities trading, so you may have to just kill yourself.
Look at all of that hyperbole and strawmanning fly.
If I didn't know any better, I would say that something about discussing and thinking about this has left you in a defensive state.
To me, the practice of asking permission for marriage is still sexist, but the whole tradition of a ring and the actual marriage itself isn't because asking permission is still asking permission, which implies a certain level of non-self ownership.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126