Well, you're a self-important cunt with no big picture idea or respect for others. Guesss what cockknocker, I pay taxes, too. That kills that lil bit of your argument.
That's some pretty offensive shit you just said there, and you know what? You're welcome.
Thank you for being shot at in a stupid idea.
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I'm very sure that the military's taxes could fund the military.
Because, you know, civilians are just lazy fuckers soaking up their generosity.
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deowolfis allowed to do that.Traffic.Registered Userregular
Well, you're a self-important cunt with no big picture idea or respect for others. Guesss what cockknocker, I pay taxes, too. That kills that lil bit of your argument.
That's some pretty offensive shit you just said there, and you know what? You're welcome.
Thank you for being shot at in a stupid idea.
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I'm very sure that the military's taxes could fund the military.
Because, you know, civilians are just lazy fuckers soaking up their generosity.
No, I'm just saying that claiming to be a taxpayer is a sad argument, devoid of any strength or potency.
I'm very sure that the military's taxes could fund the military.
Because, you know, civilians are just lazy fuckers soaking up their generosity.
I think his point is that you personally (as opposed to civilians as a whole) haven't contributed any more in taxes than any given soldier...so acting as if that should be taken into consideration at all when talking about military service is a bit silly. You pay taxes? Who gives a fuck? Everybody pays taxes.
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deowolfis allowed to do that.Traffic.Registered Userregular
I'm very sure that the military's taxes could fund the military.
Because, you know, civilians are just lazy fuckers soaking up their generosity.
I think his point is that you personally (as opposed to civilians as a whole) haven't contributed any more in taxes than any given soldier...so acting as if that should be taken into consideration at all when talking about military service is a bit silly. You pay taxes? Who gives a fuck? Everybody pays taxes.
I don't know about you guys, but I get where Incenj. is coming from in terms of fighting retarded wars. Because that's what mandatory service would get you - limitless manpower to fight retarded wars.
Now, you know, I'm around the age when people try to plan to send all the men off to do that, and I'd rather not be shot and killed doing that. Particularly because I'm also at university completing my honors, and I can see the major advantages of in fact allowing people to freely choose how they want to contribute to society rather then sticking with the notion that if you want go out and blow someone away because the government told you to then damnit clearly you're a useless civvie.
I get that the guys in the military here go through a lot of shit. I also get that by and large they signed up knowing that would happen or because it's what they wanted to do. What I don't get is why that choice has suddenly become a fabulous idea to force onto everyone else.
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deowolfis allowed to do that.Traffic.Registered Userregular
I don't know about you guys, but I get where Incenj. is coming from in terms of fighting retarded wars. Because that's what mandatory service would get you - limitless manpower to fight retarded wars.
Now, you know, I'm around the age when people try to plan to send all the men off to do that, and I'd rather not be shot and killed doing that. Particularly because I'm also at university completing my honors, and I can see the major advantages of in fact allowing people to freely choose how they want to contribute to society rather then sticking with the notion that if you want go out and blow someone away because the government told you to then damnit clearly you're a useless civvie.
I get that the guys in the military here go through a lot of shit. I also get that by and large they signed up knowing that would happen or because it's what they wanted to do. What I don't get is why that choice has suddenly become a fabulous idea to force onto everyone else.
I don't think anyone's trying to force that idea on anyone, fabulous nature or not. I garuntee most military members would be anti-draft. I think the issue became "I dont wanna be told to kill folk" vs "look, baby, that aint what we all about" and it eventually devolved into "mindless baby killers" vs "pussies who wont stand up for the amerikaz".
I don't actually think it would be possible to institute a draft for the current conflict. In the UK, at least, it's being widely claimed that soldiers are deliberately failing drug tests so they'll be sent home, and the public perception of the war is such that employers don't care if a soldier deliberately arranged to be dishonourably discharged, so it doesn't seem to be hindering them in civilian life (It also helps that a lot of the disciplines the army is training it's soldiers in are in very high demand. I work with telecoms people, and more than half of the people responsible for new infrastructure are ex-forces).
If the government were to start drafting people, we'd see most people opting out or avoiding it by any means possible, because it's unlikely there would be any downside to doing so. If there was an element of coercion, the Army would be stuck with discipline problems on an even more massive scale than they're already seeing, which would be a hindrance at best, and at worst counterproductive.
Well, generally that is the issue with threads like this. You get one guy who's all "serve the country! in the only way that's valid" and a bunch of "won't be told to kill guys" people. I mean just say it - you don't want to be placed in a higher then average chance of unexpected life termination. That seems pretty reasonable to me.
Actually it's what fighting the Vietnam war was totally like in my dream. I survived but the whole time I was all "oh god oh god I'm totally going to die but I need to get behind that tree and shoot those guys or I'll also totally die oh god!"
I have never been alive during a time when my freedom was being defended by people other than cops.
Like it or not, the existence of our standing army defends your freedom even in time of peace. The people who volunteer to serve between wars, whether you want to admit it or not, are defending your freedom. And of course those are the same people who get called off to go do stupid shit like Iraq when some idiot gets bored, too.
And I pay taxes, so you can cram any what if guilt trips down your throat with your field rations.
Eat a dick. Seriously. EDIT: And deowolf brings up a good point; aside from time spent in actual combat soldiers pay taxes like anybody else.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. I will defend what -I- value. What -you- value can go fuck itself. If putting on a uniform is required for me to defend what -I- value, fine, uniform.
But this has NEVER HAPPENED.
Yeah, because others have always been willing to do it for you. You're welcome, asshole.
I don't understand the logic on the part of those of you saying everyone needs to fight because they enjoy the freedom that this country has. You do realize that there is no other profession where this logic makes any kind of sense. You all enjoy a country with law and order, so I suppose that means you all have to go apply to the police academy? You also enjoy the benefits of modern medical science, so I suppose that only doctors, nurses, EMTs, and people involved with medical research are allowed to use hospitals without a gigantic sense of guilt. If you didn't build this nation's roads then you don't deserve to drive on them, right? That electricity you're using, that food you are eating, that water you're drinking, is all because other people have been willing to provide it to you.
There are many professions that are required for our nation to function and you don't have to be directly involved in them to reap the benefits. I don't mean to denigrate military service, I just disagree with the logic.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited April 2007
If someone joins for the primary purpose of "so others don't have to" they are sanctimonious, arrogant dicks
What if I don't give a shit about the hill, and the hill is a forty hour flight from my home? Can I just go back home instead of killing people? No. Ergo, being a soldier means being willing to kill when ordered and because ordered. I already don't like orders. And now you're ordering me to ditch my ethics, morals and values. And this is supposed to be compulsory? Fuck no.
If you don't think serving the United States is in fact a worthwhile cause or that your actions in its service will in some way contribute to the greater good, then yes, military service is immoral. Why not just say that instead of setting up a straw man? You'd be hard pressed to convince me that stability and support operations are unethical, but I can at least respect a genuinely anti-nationalist point of view. I just find it hard to swallow your glib caricature of the ethical decisions entailed in military service.
What straw-man you fucking retard? This thread is a debate about conscription. Conscription is forced service. I'm arguing that the U.S. government has no right to force me to kill. Why are you too fucking stupid to grasp what is being discussed? Also worth noting that there's a gargantuan difference between serving the United States and serving the United States government.
Seriously, outside combat arms the number of servicemembers that have actually killed anybody (or even fired their weapon) is pretty small. Even among combat arms soldiers that number is pretty small during peacekeeping...so for anybody who wasn't there for the invasion.
I'd suggest that for a majority of people who complain about "being told what to do" by the military it isn't the killing people they're worried about, but rather the getting killed.
Yeah I really doubt conscripted soldiers will all get to chose their MOS.
In fact, we can put this argument of "being forced to kill others" to the next level and state that a conscripted soldier is also forced to do push-ups or gets stationed far away from friends and family. Maybe not every soldier is forced to kill (most conscripted soldiers in the Netherlands did not fight in UN missions, thats what the professional soldiers were for) but everyone did have to do a daily work out and/or was stationed miles away from home.
Fun story: my dad was excused from ever touching a gun because he had a mental breakdown the moment he was at a shooting range. I think I can pull something similar off. :P
In fact, we can put this argument of "being forced to kill others" to the next level and state that a conscripted soldier is also forced to do push-ups or gets stationed far away from friends and family. Maybe not every soldier is forced to kill (most conscripted soldiers in the Netherlands did not fight in UN missions, thats what the professional soldiers were for) but everyone did have to do a daily work out and/or was stationed miles away from home.
Fun story: my dad was excused from ever touching a gun because he had a mental breakdown the moment he was at a shooting range. I think I can pull something similar off. :P
Killing is something of a "last straw" thing. I've been ordered to do push-ups, whatever, no big deal really. But then I was allowed to go home after I finished the day of school, and while I was in public school there was zero possibility that someone was going to order me to hurt anyone else. Particularly not over bullshit politics that I don't agree with. It has been proven conclusively that the government and I do not share the same values (I value freedom, individual rights and social/economic equality while they value profit, face, and power), if I were drafted I would not be able to claim to be a conscientious objector (I don't hold any religion recognized by the state and I'm not universally opposed to violence) and as such would be forced into a position where I can be compelled to kill against my will regardless of what I think of "the cause" in question at that particular point in time.
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deowolfis allowed to do that.Traffic.Registered Userregular
What straw-man you fucking retard? This thread is a debate about conscription. Conscription is forced service. I'm arguing that the U.S. government has no right to force me to kill. Why are you too fucking stupid to grasp what is being discussed? Also worth noting that there's a gargantuan difference between serving the United States and serving the United States government.
"If I join, the military will order me to shoot people!" That's a straw man of the military. As I'm sure you know damn well, there are a) a huge number of restrictions on how, when, and who you can kill, and b) almost all the killing you would personally do in the military would be on your very own volition to avoid dying. Now you can continue to scream hysterical abuse, or settle down and try to explain to me why killing someone who's shooting at you suddenly becomes immoral because you're wearing a uniform. (Almost all people deliberately killed in S&S operations are busy trying to kill someone else at the time.) The only rational justification I could see was to believe that the wider purpose of the op was immoral, which was a position I offered as one I could respect. Right now, looks like you really do believe that you would be ordered to kill people because the Govmint says they should die. Which is so very clueless I have to wonder if it's just window-dressing for a much less noble sentiment.
What straw-man you fucking retard? This thread is a debate about conscription. Conscription is forced service. I'm arguing that the U.S. government has no right to force me to kill. Why are you too fucking stupid to grasp what is being discussed? Also worth noting that there's a gargantuan difference between serving the United States and serving the United States government.
"If I join, the military will order me to shoot people!" That's a straw man of the military. As I'm sure you know damn well, there are a) a huge number of restrictions on how, when, and who you can kill, and b) almost all the killing you would personally do in the military would be on your very own volition to avoid dying. Now you can continue to scream hysterical abuse, or settle down and try to explain to me why killing someone who's shooting at you suddenly becomes immoral because you're wearing a uniform. (Almost all people deliberately killed in S&S operations are busy trying to kill someone else at the time.) The only rational justification I could see was to believe that the wider purpose of the op was immoral, which was a position I offered as one I could respect. Right now, looks like you really do believe that you would be ordered to kill people because the Govmint says they should die. Which is so very clueless I have to wonder if it's just window-dressing for a much less noble sentiment.
You're mistaken. I would be ordered to kill people not because "the Govmint says they should die" (and honestly if you're going to try to mock me you should have at least noticed that I would never capitalise "government") but because the government would like to further some agenda enough that they just really don't care if people die over it. That agenda could be anything, good bad neutral whatever, it doesn't matter what the agenda is. I still have to do it. Because soldiers don't get a say in when where or why to go to war.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
"If I join, the military will order me to shoot people!" That's a straw man of the military. As I'm sure you know damn well, there are a) a huge number of restrictions on how, when, and who you can kill, and b) almost all the killing you would personally do in the military would be on your very own volition to avoid dying. Now you can continue to scream hysterical abuse, or settle down and try to explain to me why killing someone who's shooting at you suddenly becomes immoral because you're wearing a uniform. (Almost all people deliberately killed in S&S operations are busy trying to kill someone else at the time.) The only rational justification I could see was to believe that the wider purpose of the op was immoral, which was a position I offered as one I could respect. Right now, looks like you really do believe that you would be ordered to kill people because the Govmint says they should die. Which is so very clueless I have to wonder if it's just window-dressing for a much less noble sentiment.
Don't pretend that the whole raison d'etre of the military isn't to kill people. That's why governments have militaries - because sometimes the government decides, for various reasons, that people need to be killed. That's why soldiers have guns, tanks and bombs. Not every soldier kills, but every soldier is expected to be able to should the need arise.
If someone is a pacifist, or otherwise has some ethic against killing, they're probably not well-suited to the military. I don't believe this is controversial.
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deowolfis allowed to do that.Traffic.Registered Userregular
If someone joins for the primary purpose of "so others don't have to" they are sanctimonious, arrogant dicks
Speaking of arrogant dicks...
Doesn't make him wrong.
I was gonna write that, but I figured I'd just get a "speaking of arrogant dicks..." back. :P
At least sax isn't sanctimonious, that's by far the worst one anyway.
No, it just makes him a hypocrite.
There's a shit-ton of false righteousness going on in this thread, and gettin all high and mighty about people getting . . . high and mighty? . . . is pretty silly. Running around waving your "I'm better than joo because ur jorb is stupid and I never wanna do you it you can't make me" flag is a pretty shit argument.
Pretty much, no one wants the draft. We can all agree on that one, and I think we do. The part where the debate and discourse devolves here is when people start ragging on the the servive, which is uncalled for. I can understand not wanting to do the job, or being forced to do the job. But I also think that there's a lot of misconception out there about what goes on down range, and nobody really wants to hear how it works from the guys who've been there, done that. It's quicker to run to the "I'll get my lawyer/Canadian citizenship" line like Incenjucar than to siddown and listen to the same side of the argument, just with a different perspective, and perhaps one you don't like.
It's a job you don't want to do. Okay. Quit ragging on the people who do it please. Because whether you like it or not, whether you understand it or not, in armed conflict or out of it, the fact that this country has a volunteer wall of green is what's kept our asses safe enough to grow up and bitch on the internet.
Which is so very clueless I have to wonder if it's just window-dressing for a much less noble sentiment.
I think it's all just window dressing for the whole "not being legally compelled to do shit I don't want to do," pretty much regardless of what that shit is. The resistance just becomes a little stronger when the shit is "quite possibly die."
So no, not a noble sentiment at all really...but not an unreasonable one, either.
That's right, it's because we hate the military. It has nothing to do with the quality of the "arguments" we're being presented with.
We're not really getting any better ones back.
You don't support conscription, dipshit. You're arguing against me solely to get off on pretending to be persecuted, not at all on the topic of discussion. What the fuck do you expect?
Which is so very clueless I have to wonder if it's just window-dressing for a much less noble sentiment.
I think it's all just window dressing for the whole "not being legally compelled to do shit I don't want to do," pretty much regardless of what that shit is. The resistance just becomes a little stronger when the shit is "quite possibly die."
So no, not a noble sentiment at all really...but not an unreasonable one, either.
You keep assuming I'm afraid of death. Like I can't or am even remotely unlikely to die outside the army or something.
Edit: If it makes you feel any better, it's mostly that I have so far had consistently fucking incredible luck with regard to not-dying, so I don't really give it much thought.
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deowolfis allowed to do that.Traffic.Registered Userregular
That's right, it's because we hate the military. It has nothing to do with the quality of the "arguments" we're being presented with.
We're not really getting any better ones back.
You don't support conscription, dipshit. You're arguing against me solely to get off on pretending to be persecuted, not at all on the topic of discussion. What the fuck do you expect?
I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood your post. I thought the 'arguments' you were talking about were aimed at the military folk, but you meant the 'arguments' for the draft?
Which is so very clueless I have to wonder if it's just window-dressing for a much less noble sentiment.
I think it's all just window dressing for the whole "not being legally compelled to do shit I don't want to do," pretty much regardless of what that shit is. The resistance just becomes a little stronger when the shit is "quite possibly die."
So no, not a noble sentiment at all really...but not an unreasonable one, either.
You keep assuming I'm afraid of death. Like I can't or am even remotely unlikely to die outside the army or something.
No. I'm assuming that you (like most people) are averse to being forced to do anything at all, and that dying is just something you'd like to do even less than most other things. It's not about being "afraid," but rather "averse."
I think many people who oppose conscription just really don't like being told what to do no matter what it is. They like having at least the semblance of a choice (being able to quite your job if you want to, for instance, regardless of the fact that you'd not be able to pay your bills). Incenjucar's position seemed to basically boil down to "you can't make me do things I don't want to!!!" and in the end seemed to have little to do with the whole "killing people" thing.
I think a lot of people fall back on that "killing people" aspect, or failing that the "dying" aspect, when really it's just a general distaste for being told what to do in general.
I kind of skipped after page 4 so I don't know too much about where the argument stands at this point, but...
Well, either the citizens of the modern Western powers are some of the biggest pansies in history, or we are ascended gods of knowledge and temperance.
That being said, I don't know why anyone else in my particular situation didn't or doesn't join the military, but I do it because it would mean putting whatever else I wanted to do with my life on hold until after my service is up. Of course, the suicidal depression that might make me do something stupid on the field of combat and get several people killed was a minor factor. And no I wasn't being sarcastic, they really are in that order.
I didn't feel particularly pressured to join the military, but then I had a perfectly good non-military chance to go to at least a community college.
No. I'm assuming that you (like most people) are averse to being forced to do anything at all, and that dying is just something you'd like to do even less than most other things. It's not about being "afraid," but rather "averse."
I think many people who oppose conscription just really don't like being told what to do no matter what it is. They like having at least the semblance of a choice (being able to quite your job if you want to, for instance, regardless of the fact that you'd not be able to pay your bills). Incenjucar's position seemed to basically boil down to "you can't make me do things I don't want to!!!" and in the end seemed to have little to do with the whole "killing people" thing.
I think a lot of people fall back on that "killing people" aspect, or failing that the "dying" aspect, when really it's just a general distaste for being told what to do in general.
That's pretty much the point I made a few posts back, only I am one of those people who don't like to be bossed around like the military is prone to do. VC replied to that, a post you should probably read.
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deowolfis allowed to do that.Traffic.Registered Userregular
It may not be a situation that the vast majority of soldiers have to face, but a tiny fraction do, and so military service becomes a gamble. Why should I be forced to take the risk, however minute, that I might be put in a situation where I simply could not follow an order (i.e. to shoot to kill)? I might look at the odds and go, "okay, I might not ever be put into a combat zone. The current wars and/or conflicts do not look likely to put someone like me into one."
And that's fine, but an enlistment or a conscription is for a length of time, and things happen. Another major terrorist attack on U.S. soil, perhaps, that demands an immediate invasion of Iran (an example), all those Tom Clancy scenarios. Again, the risk is minute, but it does not vanish. I could wind up in a combat zone, with a weapon.
It could happen that I will receive an order I cannot obey. What's the penalty for disobeying orders? I hear it's unpleasant.
(edit to finish a sentence I started and didn't complete)
I like how half the people who have posted after page 4 or so have either not read my OP or the first couple pages OR it has just totally went over their heads.
My point was that we wouldn't be starting wars like Iraq, Vietnam, and Korea if we needed to start a draft to even START them. The public would be so pissed off, just like half the people in this thread, that no one in congress would be re-elected.
Yes, in a dictatorship with conscription, it gives the country a limitless supply of soldiers. However, in a democracy, the people being drafted still have a vote.
"Wah wah, I would rather move to another country than serve in the military." Great. Most people feel this strongly about joining up. And yet, we keep allowing politicians to send OTHER people to war because, for the most part, they wanted a way to pay for college to have the options in life you have. Why are you not pissed off about them being sent off? Oh, that's right, because you are a selfish fuck. The only way most people care about whether a war is happening or not is if it directly affects them or their loved ones.
I suggest we disband 90% of our standing army so that, in order to make war, our democratic government must instate a draft to raise an army. Of course, this idea places EVERYONE in potentially in the front lines of a conflict and that scares shitless such a large percentage of selfish people who have the luxury of not having to consider joining up to get the kind of opportunities they had from their socioeconomic class.
I like how half the people who have posted after page 4 or so have either not read my OP or the first couple pages OR it has just totally went over their heads.
My point was that we wouldn't be starting wars like Iraq, Vietnam, and Korea if we needed to start a draft to even START them. The public would be so pissed off, just like half the people in this thread, that no one in congress would be re-elected.
Discussion move on
Yes, in a dictatorship with conscription, it gives the country a limitless supply of soldiers. However, in a democracy, the people being drafted still have a vote.
"Wah wah, I would rather move to another country than serve in the military." Great. Most people feel this strongly about joining up. And yet, we keep allowing politicians to send OTHER people to war because, for the most part, they wanted a way to pay for college to have the options in life you have. Why are you not pissed off about them being sent off? Oh, that's right, because you are a selfish fuck. The only way most people care about whether a war is happening or not is if it directly affects them or their loved ones.
No you dipshit, those people currently in Iraq signed up for the army, they weren't drafted, big fucking difference.
I suggest we disband 90% of our standing army so that, in order to make war, our democratic government must instate a draft to raise an army. Of course, this idea placing EVERYONE in potentially in the front lines of a conflict and most people are too lazy to give a shit about wars we are involved in otherwise.
How much did the Iraq war cost us again? How much people protested again? What happened during the latest elections? Oh right, people *do* give a shit about wars currently fought.
There are protests every day. You guys almost voted a president out of the office while the country was at war, you didn't even do that during the Vietnam war! Now you've got a democratic majority in Washington, mostly because people don't appreciate the shit going on in Iraq and the whole War on Terror.
"Wah wah, I would rather move to another country than serve in the military." Great. Most people feel this strongly about joining up. And yet, we keep allowing politicians to send OTHER people to war because, for the most part, they wanted a way to pay for college to have the options in life you have. Why are you not pissed off about them being sent off? Oh, that's right, because you are a selfish fuck. The only way most people care about whether a war is happening or not is if it directly affects them or their loved ones.
No you dipshit, those people currently in Iraq signed up for the army, they weren't drafted, big fucking difference.
They signed up for the army mainly because they needed a way to pay for college. Maybe you can relate to that feeling? Except apparently they didn't have other means to do so. It's like what has been said many times in this thread. We have what amounts to a socioeconomic draft. The people being pulled into the army are mainly people who are trying to pull themselves up by their bootstraps in the most legal way they see. And these kids are being sent off to get shot at because a decent part of the country didn't care about them enough to be against the Iraq war until RECENTLY.
I suggest we disband 90% of our standing army so that, in order to make war, our democratic government must instate a draft to raise an army. Of course, this idea placing EVERYONE in potentially in the front lines of a conflict and most people are too lazy to give a shit about wars we are involved in otherwise.
How much did the Iraq war cost us again? How much people protested again? What happened during the latest elections? Oh right, people *do* give a shit about wars currently fought.
There are protests every day. You guys almost voted a president out of the office while the country was at war, you didn't even do that during the Vietnam war! Now you've got a democratic majority in Washington, mostly because people don't appreciate the shit going on in Iraq and the whole War on Terror.
Wow, after the war has been dragged on for a few years, the public is tired of it. It's taken how many years of kids losing their lives for people to start voicing against it en masse? Only recently has "no Iraq war" begun to drown out "Support Our Troops!" My point is that if, instead of slyly thinking they could win the Iraq war before the nation got pissed about it, our government would not have started it at all if they needed a draft. Admittedly, they actually did need a draft to win it to begin with, but they thought they could fudge it because they were close enough. Which, I don't believe, would happen if they didn't have such a large standing army that we do have.
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Thank you for being shot at in a stupid idea.
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I'm very sure that the military's taxes could fund the military.
Because, you know, civilians are just lazy fuckers soaking up their generosity.
No, I'm just saying that claiming to be a taxpayer is a sad argument, devoid of any strength or potency.
And you're welcome.
I think his point is that you personally (as opposed to civilians as a whole) haven't contributed any more in taxes than any given soldier...so acting as if that should be taken into consideration at all when talking about military service is a bit silly. You pay taxes? Who gives a fuck? Everybody pays taxes.
Yep, that was it.
Now, you know, I'm around the age when people try to plan to send all the men off to do that, and I'd rather not be shot and killed doing that. Particularly because I'm also at university completing my honors, and I can see the major advantages of in fact allowing people to freely choose how they want to contribute to society rather then sticking with the notion that if you want go out and blow someone away because the government told you to then damnit clearly you're a useless civvie.
I get that the guys in the military here go through a lot of shit. I also get that by and large they signed up knowing that would happen or because it's what they wanted to do. What I don't get is why that choice has suddenly become a fabulous idea to force onto everyone else.
I don't think anyone's trying to force that idea on anyone, fabulous nature or not. I garuntee most military members would be anti-draft. I think the issue became "I dont wanna be told to kill folk" vs "look, baby, that aint what we all about" and it eventually devolved into "mindless baby killers" vs "pussies who wont stand up for the amerikaz".
If the government were to start drafting people, we'd see most people opting out or avoiding it by any means possible, because it's unlikely there would be any downside to doing so. If there was an element of coercion, the Army would be stuck with discipline problems on an even more massive scale than they're already seeing, which would be a hindrance at best, and at worst counterproductive.
Actually it's what fighting the Vietnam war was totally like in my dream. I survived but the whole time I was all "oh god oh god I'm totally going to die but I need to get behind that tree and shoot those guys or I'll also totally die oh god!"
I don't understand the logic on the part of those of you saying everyone needs to fight because they enjoy the freedom that this country has. You do realize that there is no other profession where this logic makes any kind of sense. You all enjoy a country with law and order, so I suppose that means you all have to go apply to the police academy? You also enjoy the benefits of modern medical science, so I suppose that only doctors, nurses, EMTs, and people involved with medical research are allowed to use hospitals without a gigantic sense of guilt. If you didn't build this nation's roads then you don't deserve to drive on them, right? That electricity you're using, that food you are eating, that water you're drinking, is all because other people have been willing to provide it to you.
There are many professions that are required for our nation to function and you don't have to be directly involved in them to reap the benefits. I don't mean to denigrate military service, I just disagree with the logic.
What straw-man you fucking retard? This thread is a debate about conscription. Conscription is forced service. I'm arguing that the U.S. government has no right to force me to kill. Why are you too fucking stupid to grasp what is being discussed? Also worth noting that there's a gargantuan difference between serving the United States and serving the United States government.
Yeah I really doubt conscripted soldiers will all get to chose their MOS.
Fun story: my dad was excused from ever touching a gun because he had a mental breakdown the moment he was at a shooting range. I think I can pull something similar off. :P
Killing is something of a "last straw" thing. I've been ordered to do push-ups, whatever, no big deal really. But then I was allowed to go home after I finished the day of school, and while I was in public school there was zero possibility that someone was going to order me to hurt anyone else. Particularly not over bullshit politics that I don't agree with. It has been proven conclusively that the government and I do not share the same values (I value freedom, individual rights and social/economic equality while they value profit, face, and power), if I were drafted I would not be able to claim to be a conscientious objector (I don't hold any religion recognized by the state and I'm not universally opposed to violence) and as such would be forced into a position where I can be compelled to kill against my will regardless of what I think of "the cause" in question at that particular point in time.
Speaking of arrogant dicks...
Doesn't make him wrong.
I was gonna write that, but I figured I'd just get a "speaking of arrogant dicks..." back. :P
At least sax isn't sanctimonious, that's by far the worst one anyway.
let's get back to conscription, mandatory military service or what have you.
You're mistaken. I would be ordered to kill people not because "the Govmint says they should die" (and honestly if you're going to try to mock me you should have at least noticed that I would never capitalise "government") but because the government would like to further some agenda enough that they just really don't care if people die over it. That agenda could be anything, good bad neutral whatever, it doesn't matter what the agenda is. I still have to do it. Because soldiers don't get a say in when where or why to go to war.
If someone is a pacifist, or otherwise has some ethic against killing, they're probably not well-suited to the military. I don't believe this is controversial.
No, it just makes him a hypocrite.
There's a shit-ton of false righteousness going on in this thread, and gettin all high and mighty about people getting . . . high and mighty? . . . is pretty silly. Running around waving your "I'm better than joo because ur jorb is stupid and I never wanna do you it you can't make me" flag is a pretty shit argument.
Pretty much, no one wants the draft. We can all agree on that one, and I think we do. The part where the debate and discourse devolves here is when people start ragging on the the servive, which is uncalled for. I can understand not wanting to do the job, or being forced to do the job. But I also think that there's a lot of misconception out there about what goes on down range, and nobody really wants to hear how it works from the guys who've been there, done that. It's quicker to run to the "I'll get my lawyer/Canadian citizenship" line like Incenjucar than to siddown and listen to the same side of the argument, just with a different perspective, and perhaps one you don't like.
It's a job you don't want to do. Okay. Quit ragging on the people who do it please. Because whether you like it or not, whether you understand it or not, in armed conflict or out of it, the fact that this country has a volunteer wall of green is what's kept our asses safe enough to grow up and bitch on the internet.
We're not really getting any better ones back.
I think it's all just window dressing for the whole "not being legally compelled to do shit I don't want to do," pretty much regardless of what that shit is. The resistance just becomes a little stronger when the shit is "quite possibly die."
So no, not a noble sentiment at all really...but not an unreasonable one, either.
You don't support conscription, dipshit. You're arguing against me solely to get off on pretending to be persecuted, not at all on the topic of discussion. What the fuck do you expect?
You keep assuming I'm afraid of death. Like I can't or am even remotely unlikely to die outside the army or something.
Edit: If it makes you feel any better, it's mostly that I have so far had consistently fucking incredible luck with regard to not-dying, so I don't really give it much thought.
I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood your post. I thought the 'arguments' you were talking about were aimed at the military folk, but you meant the 'arguments' for the draft?
And - what?
No. I'm assuming that you (like most people) are averse to being forced to do anything at all, and that dying is just something you'd like to do even less than most other things. It's not about being "afraid," but rather "averse."
I think many people who oppose conscription just really don't like being told what to do no matter what it is. They like having at least the semblance of a choice (being able to quite your job if you want to, for instance, regardless of the fact that you'd not be able to pay your bills). Incenjucar's position seemed to basically boil down to "you can't make me do things I don't want to!!!" and in the end seemed to have little to do with the whole "killing people" thing.
I think a lot of people fall back on that "killing people" aspect, or failing that the "dying" aspect, when really it's just a general distaste for being told what to do in general.
Well, either the citizens of the modern Western powers are some of the biggest pansies in history, or we are ascended gods of knowledge and temperance.
That being said, I don't know why anyone else in my particular situation didn't or doesn't join the military, but I do it because it would mean putting whatever else I wanted to do with my life on hold until after my service is up. Of course, the suicidal depression that might make me do something stupid on the field of combat and get several people killed was a minor factor. And no I wasn't being sarcastic, they really are in that order.
I didn't feel particularly pressured to join the military, but then I had a perfectly good non-military chance to go to at least a community college.
Quite honestly, I think that'd be sound for everyone, myself included.
And that's fine, but an enlistment or a conscription is for a length of time, and things happen. Another major terrorist attack on U.S. soil, perhaps, that demands an immediate invasion of Iran (an example), all those Tom Clancy scenarios. Again, the risk is minute, but it does not vanish. I could wind up in a combat zone, with a weapon.
It could happen that I will receive an order I cannot obey. What's the penalty for disobeying orders? I hear it's unpleasant.
(edit to finish a sentence I started and didn't complete)
Yeah, but he's talking about disobeying orders to fire at "the enemy", if I'm understanding correctly.
Also, I have to wager most people averse to the idea of killing people might get over that real quick once they're being shot at.
Depends on the situation, hm? Some far-off desert: no. My backyard: yes.
My point was that we wouldn't be starting wars like Iraq, Vietnam, and Korea if we needed to start a draft to even START them. The public would be so pissed off, just like half the people in this thread, that no one in congress would be re-elected.
Yes, in a dictatorship with conscription, it gives the country a limitless supply of soldiers. However, in a democracy, the people being drafted still have a vote.
"Wah wah, I would rather move to another country than serve in the military." Great. Most people feel this strongly about joining up. And yet, we keep allowing politicians to send OTHER people to war because, for the most part, they wanted a way to pay for college to have the options in life you have. Why are you not pissed off about them being sent off? Oh, that's right, because you are a selfish fuck. The only way most people care about whether a war is happening or not is if it directly affects them or their loved ones.
I suggest we disband 90% of our standing army so that, in order to make war, our democratic government must instate a draft to raise an army. Of course, this idea places EVERYONE in potentially in the front lines of a conflict and that scares shitless such a large percentage of selfish people who have the luxury of not having to consider joining up to get the kind of opportunities they had from their socioeconomic class.
There are protests every day. You guys almost voted a president out of the office while the country was at war, you didn't even do that during the Vietnam war! Now you've got a democratic majority in Washington, mostly because people don't appreciate the shit going on in Iraq and the whole War on Terror.
They signed up for the army mainly because they needed a way to pay for college. Maybe you can relate to that feeling? Except apparently they didn't have other means to do so. It's like what has been said many times in this thread. We have what amounts to a socioeconomic draft. The people being pulled into the army are mainly people who are trying to pull themselves up by their bootstraps in the most legal way they see. And these kids are being sent off to get shot at because a decent part of the country didn't care about them enough to be against the Iraq war until RECENTLY.
Wow, after the war has been dragged on for a few years, the public is tired of it. It's taken how many years of kids losing their lives for people to start voicing against it en masse? Only recently has "no Iraq war" begun to drown out "Support Our Troops!" My point is that if, instead of slyly thinking they could win the Iraq war before the nation got pissed about it, our government would not have started it at all if they needed a draft. Admittedly, they actually did need a draft to win it to begin with, but they thought they could fudge it because they were close enough. Which, I don't believe, would happen if they didn't have such a large standing army that we do have.