Alright I have a serious question that will start another thing
Voting with your dollar- effect or not effective?
To set up a strawman, I have seen many people tell me that my dollar doesn't matter to the economy, and then go off and argue that the free market, or some form of capitalism, is the ultimate economic system because it is slave to the whims of the consumers.
I understand that both of these positions are ridiculously overblown positions that border on the theoretical, so in actuality does selective purchasing or not purchasing products from companies performing things you like or dislike actually work?
i think the stronger observation is that a given company might have no idea that a drop in sale corresponds to a protest of this or that practice
So I write them a letter and then don't buy their products.
they won't read it
unless you are one of like 10 people who give them business
so continue doing it personally and feeling better about myself while being mocked by people saying that i am only doing this to assuage my own ego?
No, do it in a better way
I was at a lecture by a election researcher professor guy and he told us not just to vote and leave it at that, or just hand out some brochures and stop there
those are the very bare minimums of participating politically
don't act individually, try to influence others too and start something bigger
he may or may not have been joking; but this is a fairly standard response
did he ever say you got high and mighty?
Because I don't think he meant you. I think he meant the people who can't help but go on and on about their moral superiority and those people are horribly annoying no matter the viewpoint.
Arch, the key is not make people take the jump from normal meat eating habit to no factory farm meat/vegetarianism in one step. If you want your style of thought to spread, make it gradual. Show the damage it does, then tell them if we reduced our intake by x% a year, it makes the problem get this much better.
This way people don't lose something they like but still are helping things piece by piece. And as you go more and more people will reduce more and more and join you. The problem is you are trying to get people do what you did, going from 100 to 0. Try to get them from going from 100 to 75, and from 75 to 50. If you get 10 out of 100 going to 0, you help, but if you get 50 to reduce by 25% you do much better.
Alright I have a serious question that will start another thing
Voting with your dollar- effect or not effective?
To set up a strawman, I have seen many people tell me that my dollar doesn't matter to the economy, and then go off and argue that the free market, or some form of capitalism, is the ultimate economic system because it is slave to the whims of the consumers.
I understand that both of these positions are ridiculously overblown positions that border on the theoretical, so in actuality does selective purchasing or not purchasing products from companies performing things you like or dislike actually work?
i think the stronger observation is that a given company might have no idea that a drop in sale corresponds to a protest of this or that practice
So I write them a letter and then don't buy their products.
they won't read it
unless you are one of like 10 people who give them business
so continue doing it personally and feeling better about myself while being mocked by people saying that i am only doing this to assuage my own ego?
No, do it in a better way
I was at a lecture by a election researcher professor guy and he told us not just to vote and leave it at that, or just hand out some brochures and stop there
those are the very bare minimums of participating politically
don't act individually, try to influence others too and start something bigger
he may or may not have been joking; but this is a fairly standard response
did he ever say you got high and mighty?
Because I don't think he meant you. I think he meant the people who can't help but go on and on about their moral superiority and those people are horribly annoying no matter the viewpoint.
No i understand, the problem is that many many people take any mention of vegetarian lifestyles as immediately being high and mighty.
Simply saying "I don't eat meat" has been enough to get me made fun of for being an elitist.
Alright I have a serious question that will start another thing
Voting with your dollar- effect or not effective?
To set up a strawman, I have seen many people tell me that my dollar doesn't matter to the economy, and then go off and argue that the free market, or some form of capitalism, is the ultimate economic system because it is slave to the whims of the consumers.
I understand that both of these positions are ridiculously overblown positions that border on the theoretical, so in actuality does selective purchasing or not purchasing products from companies performing things you like or dislike actually work?
i think the stronger observation is that a given company might have no idea that a drop in sale corresponds to a protest of this or that practice
So I write them a letter and then don't buy their products.
they won't read it
unless you are one of like 10 people who give them business
so continue doing it personally and feeling better about myself while being mocked by people saying that i am only doing this to assuage my own ego?
No, do it in a better way
I was at a lecture by a election researcher professor guy and he told us not just to vote and leave it at that, or just hand out some brochures and stop there
those are the very bare minimums of participating politically
don't act individually, try to influence others too and start something bigger
he may or may not have been joking; but this is a fairly standard response
did he ever say you got high and mighty?
Because I don't think he meant you. I think he meant the people who can't help but go on and on about their moral superiority and those people are horribly annoying no matter the viewpoint.
No i understand, the problem is that many many people take any mention of vegetarian lifestyles as immediately being high and mighty.
Simply saying "I don't eat meat" has been enough to get me made fun of for being an elitist.
assholes gonna asshole
EDIT: Also making people go full vegetarian isn't the most effective thing you could do, me thinks. Like with CO2 emissions, trying to get people to stop emitting at all would result in far less net reductions than trying to get people to emit a little less, because the latter method would probably win a lot more people over.
So don't say that eating meat is bad, say that eating a little less meat is good. And give them recipes! This is very important. I couldn't survive as a vegetarian because I basically don't know how to make any vegetarian food.
Arch, the key is not make people take the jump from normal meat eating habit to no factory farm meat/vegetarianism in one step. If you want your style of thought to spread, make it gradual. Show the damage it does, then tell them if we reduced our intake by x% a year, it makes the problem get this much better.
This way people don't lose something they like but still are helping things piece by piece. And as you go more and more people will reduce more and more and join you. The problem is you are trying to get people do what you did, going from 100 to 0. Try to get them from going from 100 to 75, and from 75 to 50. If you get 10 out of 100 going to 0, you help, but if you get 50 to reduce by 25% you do much better.
I think you need to just change your approach.
Oh I have been- again I may be an idealist, but I am not stupid.
my common arguments are always the ridiculous amount we overconsume, as well as the massive environmental damage. I always recommend local farmers as a source of meat, provided they are being responsible and sustainable.
I mean yours really has been my approach, but it still gets hit with the whole "IMMA EAT TWO BURGERZ FOR YOUS" response with so much regularity it is scary.
But then again I live in the south and a lot of people here are very very stupid and closed-minded. (this happened mainly in my college town, and not so much here)
I'd like to hear your position first because I don't want to color our discussion.
Nah. No, thanks.
o_O
Uh, okay.
Did...did you want to hear mine?
Sure.
A little background, though. Stating a purpose for morality is a big topic, and in the past when similar questions have been levied at me, I end up getting into a grammatical lawyering discussion where somebody jumps on one minor hole or flaw in my statement that I didn't properly hedge with the appropriate subclause. It ends up a semantic wankfest. I'd rather sandpaper my balls.
Riemann: Is there evidence that resisting a particular desire is going to result in at least effort if not stress or suffering? Then the benefits of resisting it need to be tangible enough to outweigh that effort, stress, or suffering.
I follow the theory that morality is an evolved system (genetically and culturally, as I believe these two things are inextricably intertwined), and that its entire purpose is to allow social cooperation to happen. I believe that it is sort of a intrinsic system in which there are variables that can be manipulated by social conditions. So, depending on your social milieu, you can have the shape of your moral circle, and the severity of your moral reactions manipulated.
As much as game theory fails to accurately describe interactions at the complexity level of real life, it's good for exemplifying fundamental principles. Take the prisoner's dilemma, for instance. From a single instance of the prisoner's dilemma, we know that the correct answer is always defect. Then, of course, there's the iterated dilemma, in which situation you can take an almost infinite number of strategies. One of the strongest strategies for iterated prisoner's dilemma is the "tit-for-tat" strategy, in which the first option is to attempt to cooperate, and then based on the outcome to continue cooperating or to always defect. I think morality is shaped around this basic concept.
Which is to say, overall, I think that morality is fundamentally self-interested. Yet not consciously self-interested.
Really I'm just trying to break up chat from this fucking discussion of morality and vegeterianism. It's been going on for 20 pages and I'm having a tough time wading through the shit.
I've coined the term "shexting" for when you text people while shiting, In your case I guess I can coin a new term. Maybe shosting (shit posting)? It doesn't quite roll of the tongue like shexting.
Witchdr on
"Look, all I know is that this cord was plugged into my house and your house was glowing like the freakin' sun. So, I put two and two together there and decided that you're pissing me off." -Carl Brutananadilewski
In regards to the advocates of his former empire: “I was going to have them all executed… the Royal Advocate talked me out of it.” -Shadowthrone (Emperor Kellanved)
Really I'm just trying to break up chat from this fucking discussion of morality and vegeterianism. It's been going on for 20 pages and I'm having a tough time wading through the shit.
So I was dating the woman who would later become my ex-wife. We'd moved in together for a month or so and we had a massive fight. I had dared to make the error of being late to get home. It was the first time I had driven to my new job and it was a city I had lived in for a week or so. So I get home and we had a fight about it. A fight that ended with her taking out a large knife and cutting her own wrist. Something I would later find out she did intentionally because a previous girlfriend had taken her own life, and because she felt that cutting her own wrist would be the most hurtful thing she could do. It wasn't a suicide attempt of her own.
Story three:
Same woman as story two. I haven't converted any experiences to wisdom yet. Still dating. The ex-wife has decided that my commute to and from work was far too long for what it actually took. Using her logic that meant I was having an affair. Her reaching said conclusion ignored the fact that she could see the time I walked out the door at work (literally she could see me leaving work via video) and the fact that I would call her with my cell along the way. So when I got home, she had a full on rage going. I knew she was pissed. I did not expect a cliche however, and thus ceramic bowl heading toward my head was a bit of a surprise.
Story three: In which we learn our hero really is an idiot.
So back to the ex-wife. One day I have decided that I have had enough abuse, enough crap and it's time to end the relationship. The smartest thing I had ever done. Alas, I wasn't really bright enough to think through my approach. If I had been really smart, I would have moved out first and told her via phone. From another state. Nope, I chose to tell her in person. As you can guess from my previous stories, she didn't take this well. Nope. Not well at all. Her response to me announcing I'm leaving? She pulled a sword on me.
Yes, a replica Katana. She's taken it from a table, drawn it and is advancing on me. And in that sudden moment, I've come to an important realization. Death wouldn't be quite so bad at this point. She raises the blade and brings it downward and I have a second sudden realization. Breathing is good! So I did something that qualifies me for the Olympics of stupid. I attempted to catch the blade between my hands. Why I chose that particular action I have no idea. For those wondering it didn't work as well as it does in bad movies. I stopped the blade, but it sliced open one of my fingers.
At this point the idea that she was about to kill me has finally sunk into the ex-wife's mind. She apologies profusely. I pretended as if I had forgiven her, went to the ER and when I got some time alone, left. Even I can learn after a while.
A little bit of a back story. I grew up in New England. My grandfather took me to my first Red Soxs game when I was six. I've been a fan ever since. My ex-wife dreamed of living in New York since she was a little girl. She of course was a Yankees fan. My sister when to college in Boston and gone native. My sister had just gotten into baseball that year and the christmas gifts she sent reflected it. I got a Curt Schilling jersey and my ex got a 2004 ACLS championship t-shirt. To say my ex was annoyed was a bit of a mild understatement. She called up my sister and proceeded to scream at her for the better part of two hours. The rest of Christmas day was a little tense.
The crazy ones are amazing at keeping you off balance.
So some more stories.
Story one: In which our hero learns that crazy runs in the family and in which our hero learns he's a douchebag.
It's not hard to guess from my previous stories that when my marriage ended, it didn't end well. After several years of shit, I finally reached my breaking point and left. Realizing that my ex-wife posed a danger to me, I used my former sister in law as a go between. Now my ex-wife and her sister have a love/hate relationship. Every six months they do something to really, really piss each other off. Cars get keyed, screaming matches, humiliating each other at family gatherings and other such nonsense. Being an emotional wreck I wasn't thinking things through very well or I would have realized that it the six month period was almost up. I compounded that by confiding in my former sister in law, which turned into me spending the night at her place. And things happened. Things that were a wonderful ego boost at the time, but christ it made my divorce even messier.
So those who have spent the night with me will attest that I snore. I snore loudly, and with the exception of people sounds I can sleep through almost anything up to and including a hurricane. My ex-wife was a very light sleeper, so as you can imagine it was a source of conflict between the two of us. Mostly me trying various methods of stopping it and her screaming at me. One night while I was sleeping it came to a head. Sometimes she'd throw a pillow over my head to muffle it. This time she held it down. I woke up in more then a little panic because I couldn't breathe. And you really don't want to see a guy my size panic. In removing the pillow I was less then gentle, and my ex-wife's wrist was sprained. Now I had put up with a lot of shit from her, and I lost my temper. I spent more then a few moments screaming at her. She broke down in tears and within an hour had me convinced that I was abusive because her wrist was sprained.
Story two: In which our hero gets stabby.
So my ex-wife is a diabetic. And at one point she had to switch from a pill to insulin injections. Which worked really well with her fear of needles. So we were in a restaurant parking lot when it came time for her to give herself her first injection. Panic filled her face and she informed me that it was impossible for someone to give themselves an injection. Now I'm very confused because my ex-wife is a nurse and that's what she spent much of her day doing to other people. How hard could it really be? We went round and round about this for a little while until the only way I could convince her that she could do it, would be to do it to myself. And I did. So she did after a little while.
There are always warning signs. For my ex-wife the warning sign was when I met her first husband (I was hubby number two) and he told me "She's a crazy bitch". Sometimes the warning signs are less subtle then others.
Story two: Our hero puts to use the Boy Scout motto.
Like many of the other guys in this thread I've had to deal with the dreaded "I dreamed you did something thus you need to be punished for it" dream. My ex-wife once dreamed that I was cheating on her while at the same time I was physically torturing her. Which lead me to being woken up by a punch to my stomach and groin areas.
This was followed up by an hour of screaming at me and banishment to the couch. The very comfy new couch which I had mad sure would be just right for napping. The same very comfy couch which had a pillow and blanket stuffed behind it.
I was reminded of a story recently and I thought I would share it. This one doesn't have a funny ending, or a happy one.
This was a few years back when my birthday came to pass. I received cards from friends and family and I expected that my then not yet ex-wife would do something nice for the day. I went to work, did all of my normal stuff. Came home, made dinner and went through a normal night. All of the time expecting my ex to say something or bring out a gift. Just the usual snide comments about my cooking. I won't lie, I was disappointed but being ignored is always better then being hit. Mid-night gets closer and I get a call from my sister wishing me a happy birthday. The ex asks me what the conversation is about and proceeds to flip out when I tell her. She screams about how I should have reminded her, how I was just trying to make her look bad.
I have had enough at this point and I made one of my many attempts to leave. I begin to walk out the door when there is a sudden blossoming pain in the back of my head. Which was followed up with another and then a third. I got pretty dizzy and fell on my ass when I attempted to turn around. My head landed against the wall and left a streak of blood as my body slumped to the ground. My ex snapped out of it at this point and helped me to the ER. Seven stitches later I was home and wobbly. Within an hour or so my ex had me completely convinced that it was all my fault. If I had reminded her that it was my birthday she would have done something. If I hadn't tried hurting her by leaving, I wouldn't have gotten hit. If I was just better, I wouldn't have caused all of this. It's soured me on my birthday since.
So my last story before the thread ends.
A few weeks back a friend convinced me to go out dancing with her and her friends, which really wasn't that hard. Stay at home or go out with a bunch of college age girls isn't exactly a tough call. So we go to a local club and a good time is being had by all. I'm on the dance floor with Rebecka when I hear a voice calling my name. My spine stiffens as it's a voice I know well. I turn around and see my ex-wife standing there. I turn back around and take Rebecka's arm and lead her off the dance floor and away from my ex. I don't want a scene, I don't want any drama and I certainly have lost my taste for crazy.
Rebecka begins peppering me with questions when we get back to the group and I tell her who it was. A very brief explanation is given to her friends and we decide to go somewhere else. Moments later my ex is there, clearly very drunk and very much looking for a fight. She makes some snotty comments about cradle robbing on my part and begins to berate Rebecka for stealing "her" man. Never mind the fact that we had been divorced for a few years before I had met Rebecka. Rebecka starts to walk off when my ex takes a swing at her, only to stumble when she feels my hand around her wrist. I look into her eyes, and the expression on her face is that of one who is expecting me to cower in front of her. She's expecting to see fear in my eyes. The anger she saw was less expected. And I saw something I had never seen in her eyes. Fear. And I said the worst thing I could think of to an older woman who is standing in front of a number of much younger and more attractive peers.
"I hope you enjoyed your 40th birthday. "
Her friends showed up and began to pull her away with her screeching at the top of her lungs that she was going to have me arrested for bruising her wrist. Rebecka, myself and her friends left and had a good time at another club.
Yeah, the South is hard that way. Got to change the message so it fits the society you are presenting it to. The problem is the American South you can't do the environment because that is to liberal, you can't use morality, you can't use economics because a lot of the south is based on this industry. And health only works with the upper class. I really can't think of how to tailor the idea right now.
You would do really well though in the Northeast and whats funny its places like that with the major population concentrations where you would get more change anyways since it would cost the companies more money. Also you get better pr folks behind you.
Mazzyx on
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
Arch would eat a baby seal if it died of accidental drug overdose
It's really hard to ask a vegetarian about why they're vegetarians without them being afraid I'm going to be a dick about it, I've found
that it is that way is not just sad for them, but when I ask I'm geniunely interested, because there are loads of interesting reasons
If you notice my very initial post about this, to elldren, I was worried about this
It is a valid fear
EDIT: or at least common enough that i experience it
Isn't the reason you're a vegetarian because you're against the slaughter houses and the way they treat/feed the animals? Not against eating the meat?
Yes, but that is minor. Bigger issue is environmental damage, at least to me.
So why won't you eat at a seafood restaurant?
You realize that overfishing is a huge problem right? Shrimp stocks in particular are in a bad way right now, and a lot of commercially-harvested and sold fish is being harvested in a dangerous and unsustainable manner.
So I was dating the woman who would later become my ex-wife. We'd moved in together for a month or so and we had a massive fight. I had dared to make the error of being late to get home. It was the first time I had driven to my new job and it was a city I had lived in for a week or so. So I get home and we had a fight about it. A fight that ended with her taking out a large knife and cutting her own wrist. Something I would later find out she did intentionally because a previous girlfriend had taken her own life, and because she felt that cutting her own wrist would be the most hurtful thing she could do. It wasn't a suicide attempt of her own.
Story three:
Same woman as story two. I haven't converted any experiences to wisdom yet. Still dating. The ex-wife has decided that my commute to and from work was far too long for what it actually took. Using her logic that meant I was having an affair. Her reaching said conclusion ignored the fact that she could see the time I walked out the door at work (literally she could see me leaving work via video) and the fact that I would call her with my cell along the way. So when I got home, she had a full on rage going. I knew she was pissed. I did not expect a cliche however, and thus ceramic bowl heading toward my head was a bit of a surprise.
Story three: In which we learn our hero really is an idiot.
So back to the ex-wife. One day I have decided that I have had enough abuse, enough crap and it's time to end the relationship. The smartest thing I had ever done. Alas, I wasn't really bright enough to think through my approach. If I had been really smart, I would have moved out first and told her via phone. From another state. Nope, I chose to tell her in person. As you can guess from my previous stories, she didn't take this well. Nope. Not well at all. Her response to me announcing I'm leaving? She pulled a sword on me.
Yes, a replica Katana. She's taken it from a table, drawn it and is advancing on me. And in that sudden moment, I've come to an important realization. Death wouldn't be quite so bad at this point. She raises the blade and brings it downward and I have a second sudden realization. Breathing is good! So I did something that qualifies me for the Olympics of stupid. I attempted to catch the blade between my hands. Why I chose that particular action I have no idea. For those wondering it didn't work as well as it does in bad movies. I stopped the blade, but it sliced open one of my fingers.
At this point the idea that she was about to kill me has finally sunk into the ex-wife's mind. She apologies profusely. I pretended as if I had forgiven her, went to the ER and when I got some time alone, left. Even I can learn after a while.
A little bit of a back story. I grew up in New England. My grandfather took me to my first Red Soxs game when I was six. I've been a fan ever since. My ex-wife dreamed of living in New York since she was a little girl. She of course was a Yankees fan. My sister when to college in Boston and gone native. My sister had just gotten into baseball that year and the christmas gifts she sent reflected it. I got a Curt Schilling jersey and my ex got a 2004 ACLS championship t-shirt. To say my ex was annoyed was a bit of a mild understatement. She called up my sister and proceeded to scream at her for the better part of two hours. The rest of Christmas day was a little tense.
The crazy ones are amazing at keeping you off balance.
So some more stories.
Story one: In which our hero learns that crazy runs in the family and in which our hero learns he's a douchebag.
It's not hard to guess from my previous stories that when my marriage ended, it didn't end well. After several years of shit, I finally reached my breaking point and left. Realizing that my ex-wife posed a danger to me, I used my former sister in law as a go between. Now my ex-wife and her sister have a love/hate relationship. Every six months they do something to really, really piss each other off. Cars get keyed, screaming matches, humiliating each other at family gatherings and other such nonsense. Being an emotional wreck I wasn't thinking things through very well or I would have realized that it the six month period was almost up. I compounded that by confiding in my former sister in law, which turned into me spending the night at her place. And things happened. Things that were a wonderful ego boost at the time, but christ it made my divorce even messier.
So those who have spent the night with me will attest that I snore. I snore loudly, and with the exception of people sounds I can sleep through almost anything up to and including a hurricane. My ex-wife was a very light sleeper, so as you can imagine it was a source of conflict between the two of us. Mostly me trying various methods of stopping it and her screaming at me. One night while I was sleeping it came to a head. Sometimes she'd throw a pillow over my head to muffle it. This time she held it down. I woke up in more then a little panic because I couldn't breathe. And you really don't want to see a guy my size panic. In removing the pillow I was less then gentle, and my ex-wife's wrist was sprained. Now I had put up with a lot of shit from her, and I lost my temper. I spent more then a few moments screaming at her. She broke down in tears and within an hour had me convinced that I was abusive because her wrist was sprained.
Story two: In which our hero gets stabby.
So my ex-wife is a diabetic. And at one point she had to switch from a pill to insulin injections. Which worked really well with her fear of needles. So we were in a restaurant parking lot when it came time for her to give herself her first injection. Panic filled her face and she informed me that it was impossible for someone to give themselves an injection. Now I'm very confused because my ex-wife is a nurse and that's what she spent much of her day doing to other people. How hard could it really be? We went round and round about this for a little while until the only way I could convince her that she could do it, would be to do it to myself. And I did. So she did after a little while.
There are always warning signs. For my ex-wife the warning sign was when I met her first husband (I was hubby number two) and he told me "She's a crazy bitch". Sometimes the warning signs are less subtle then others.
Story two: Our hero puts to use the Boy Scout motto.
Like many of the other guys in this thread I've had to deal with the dreaded "I dreamed you did something thus you need to be punished for it" dream. My ex-wife once dreamed that I was cheating on her while at the same time I was physically torturing her. Which lead me to being woken up by a punch to my stomach and groin areas.
This was followed up by an hour of screaming at me and banishment to the couch. The very comfy new couch which I had mad sure would be just right for napping. The same very comfy couch which had a pillow and blanket stuffed behind it.
I was reminded of a story recently and I thought I would share it. This one doesn't have a funny ending, or a happy one.
This was a few years back when my birthday came to pass. I received cards from friends and family and I expected that my then not yet ex-wife would do something nice for the day. I went to work, did all of my normal stuff. Came home, made dinner and went through a normal night. All of the time expecting my ex to say something or bring out a gift. Just the usual snide comments about my cooking. I won't lie, I was disappointed but being ignored is always better then being hit. Mid-night gets closer and I get a call from my sister wishing me a happy birthday. The ex asks me what the conversation is about and proceeds to flip out when I tell her. She screams about how I should have reminded her, how I was just trying to make her look bad.
I have had enough at this point and I made one of my many attempts to leave. I begin to walk out the door when there is a sudden blossoming pain in the back of my head. Which was followed up with another and then a third. I got pretty dizzy and fell on my ass when I attempted to turn around. My head landed against the wall and left a streak of blood as my body slumped to the ground. My ex snapped out of it at this point and helped me to the ER. Seven stitches later I was home and wobbly. Within an hour or so my ex had me completely convinced that it was all my fault. If I had reminded her that it was my birthday she would have done something. If I hadn't tried hurting her by leaving, I wouldn't have gotten hit. If I was just better, I wouldn't have caused all of this. It's soured me on my birthday since.
So my last story before the thread ends.
A few weeks back a friend convinced me to go out dancing with her and her friends, which really wasn't that hard. Stay at home or go out with a bunch of college age girls isn't exactly a tough call. So we go to a local club and a good time is being had by all. I'm on the dance floor with Rebecka when I hear a voice calling my name. My spine stiffens as it's a voice I know well. I turn around and see my ex-wife standing there. I turn back around and take Rebecka's arm and lead her off the dance floor and away from my ex. I don't want a scene, I don't want any drama and I certainly have lost my taste for crazy.
Rebecka begins peppering me with questions when we get back to the group and I tell her who it was. A very brief explanation is given to her friends and we decide to go somewhere else. Moments later my ex is there, clearly very drunk and very much looking for a fight. She makes some snotty comments about cradle robbing on my part and begins to berate Rebecka for stealing "her" man. Never mind the fact that we had been divorced for a few years before I had met Rebecka. Rebecka starts to walk off when my ex takes a swing at her, only to stumble when she feels my hand around her wrist. I look into her eyes, and the expression on her face is that of one who is expecting me to cower in front of her. She's expecting to see fear in my eyes. The anger she saw was less expected. And I saw something I had never seen in her eyes. Fear. And I said the worst thing I could think of to an older woman who is standing in front of a number of much younger and more attractive peers.
"I hope you enjoyed your 40th birthday. "
Her friends showed up and began to pull her away with her screeching at the top of her lungs that she was going to have me arrested for bruising her wrist. Rebecka, myself and her friends left and had a good time at another club.
Too Horrible; Didn't Read: Thom was married to Satan herself, no exagerration
It's really hard to ask a vegetarian about why they're vegetarians without them being afraid I'm going to be a dick about it, I've found
that it is that way is not just sad for them, but when I ask I'm geniunely interested, because there are loads of interesting reasons
If you notice my very initial post about this, to elldren, I was worried about this
It is a valid fear
EDIT: or at least common enough that i experience it
Isn't the reason you're a vegetarian because you're against the slaughter houses and the way they treat/feed the animals? Not against eating the meat?
Yes, but that is minor. Bigger issue is environmental damage, at least to me.
So why won't you eat at a seafood restaurant?
You realize that overfishing is a huge problem right? Shrimp stocks in particular are in a bad way right now, and a lot of commercially-harvested and sold fish is being harvested in a dangerous and unsustainable manner.
Galahad you just described what my mom use to do when she lived in rural Arkansas. Also got milk from the local dairy farm fresh and such. This was in the 1970's. That is how short a period of time it has been since you use to go to local stuff for food.
Posts
I didn't! Well I did, but I really didn't know how to address it
I mean it is true but the whole problem of "proselytizing vegetarian" is a sticky issue and a very hot button topic
to fill this with buzzwords
big oil
obamacare
If you notice my very initial post about this, to elldren, I was worried about this
It is a valid fear
EDIT: or at least common enough that i experience it
did he ever say you got high and mighty?
Because I don't think he meant you. I think he meant the people who can't help but go on and on about their moral superiority and those people are horribly annoying no matter the viewpoint.
you confuse me so much
This way people don't lose something they like but still are helping things piece by piece. And as you go more and more people will reduce more and more and join you. The problem is you are trying to get people do what you did, going from 100 to 0. Try to get them from going from 100 to 75, and from 75 to 50. If you get 10 out of 100 going to 0, you help, but if you get 50 to reduce by 25% you do much better.
I think you need to just change your approach.
did he ever say you got high and mighty?
Because I don't think he meant you. I think he meant the people who can't help but go on and on about their moral superiority and those people are horribly annoying no matter the viewpoint.
No i understand, the problem is that many many people take any mention of vegetarian lifestyles as immediately being high and mighty.
Simply saying "I don't eat meat" has been enough to get me made fun of for being an elitist.
No i understand, the problem is that many many people take any mention of vegetarian lifestyles as immediately being high and mighty.
Simply saying "I don't eat meat" has been enough to get me made fun of for being an elitist.
assholes gonna asshole
EDIT: Also making people go full vegetarian isn't the most effective thing you could do, me thinks. Like with CO2 emissions, trying to get people to stop emitting at all would result in far less net reductions than trying to get people to emit a little less, because the latter method would probably win a lot more people over.
So don't say that eating meat is bad, say that eating a little less meat is good. And give them recipes! This is very important. I couldn't survive as a vegetarian because I basically don't know how to make any vegetarian food.
Isn't the reason you're a vegetarian because you're against the slaughter houses and the way they treat/feed the animals? Not against eating the meat?
Oh I have been- again I may be an idealist, but I am not stupid.
my common arguments are always the ridiculous amount we overconsume, as well as the massive environmental damage. I always recommend local farmers as a source of meat, provided they are being responsible and sustainable.
I mean yours really has been my approach, but it still gets hit with the whole "IMMA EAT TWO BURGERZ FOR YOUS" response with so much regularity it is scary.
But then again I live in the south and a lot of people here are very very stupid and closed-minded. (this happened mainly in my college town, and not so much here)
Yes, but that is minor. Bigger issue is environmental damage, at least to me.
I might also try raising my own eggs.
"I use public transit because it is more convenient than a car in the city."
"I eat meat because my body needs what it offers and it is tasty."
None of these positions are ones that pass judgement upon those who do not view the world this way.
"I use a Mac because PCs suck and the people who use them are idiots."
"I drive a Prius because the people in gas guzzling SUVs are destroying the planet."
"I am a level 5 vegan (Eat nothing which casts a shadow) and people who aren't are callous to the plight of all life on this world."
THOSE statements are awful.
I guess I am saying when your identity with something actively involves painting an opposing group in a worse light, then you annoy me and I tune out.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
So why won't you eat at a seafood restaurant?
I follow the theory that morality is an evolved system (genetically and culturally, as I believe these two things are inextricably intertwined), and that its entire purpose is to allow social cooperation to happen. I believe that it is sort of a intrinsic system in which there are variables that can be manipulated by social conditions. So, depending on your social milieu, you can have the shape of your moral circle, and the severity of your moral reactions manipulated.
As much as game theory fails to accurately describe interactions at the complexity level of real life, it's good for exemplifying fundamental principles. Take the prisoner's dilemma, for instance. From a single instance of the prisoner's dilemma, we know that the correct answer is always defect. Then, of course, there's the iterated dilemma, in which situation you can take an almost infinite number of strategies. One of the strongest strategies for iterated prisoner's dilemma is the "tit-for-tat" strategy, in which the first option is to attempt to cooperate, and then based on the outcome to continue cooperating or to always defect. I think morality is shaped around this basic concept.
Which is to say, overall, I think that morality is fundamentally self-interested. Yet not consciously self-interested.
You know the solution.
Get poopin'.
Really I'm just trying to break up chat from this fucking discussion of morality and vegeterianism. It's been going on for 20 pages and I'm having a tough time wading through the shit.
Fremont is a neighborhood in Seattle and the Deep Bore Drilling thing is part of a possible uber tunnel project in downtown.
May also raise some form of large insect for another protein source.
Yep.
I've coined the term "shexting" for when you text people while shiting, In your case I guess I can coin a new term. Maybe shosting (shit posting)? It doesn't quite roll of the tongue like shexting.
In regards to the advocates of his former empire: “I was going to have them all executed… the Royal Advocate talked me out of it.” -Shadowthrone (Emperor Kellanved)
Handles: LoL-Emerging, BF4/Hardline-Whiskeyjack227, Steam-Fragglerock, HOTS/Blizzard-Whiskeyjack#1333, Life-Jason
Fall in?
Children aren't technically insects.
Be forewarned, these stories are mostly depressing. As one person put it "Lifetime for Guys".
You would do really well though in the Northeast and whats funny its places like that with the major population concentrations where you would get more change anyways since it would cost the companies more money. Also you get better pr folks behind you.
You realize that overfishing is a huge problem right? Shrimp stocks in particular are in a bad way right now, and a lot of commercially-harvested and sold fish is being harvested in a dangerous and unsustainable manner.
Overfishing and by-catch waste are huge issues.
*edit: Too slow for [chat].
how did that conversation end up
CHUWERO SCOOPSLUT
Too Horrible; Didn't Read: Thom was married to Satan herself, no exagerration
Didn't know that.
All I know is shrimp is goooooooooood.
Stay away. It's boring, shit city with nothing to do past a 3 day vacation. It's also full of smelly hippies and homeless asians.
Insects are pretty cool
I don't know why you'd want to eat them, though.